Kerr picks Kobe not Lebron as closest to MJ
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:43 am    Post subject:

trablos wrote:
KobeDunk wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
Kobe's always been the superior one on one player... and if basketball were golf, he'd be Tiger Woods.

But LeBron's the better all around player... rebounds, assists... hell, he even shoots threes better than Kobe.


don't let the stats fool you. Do you remember all the non calls where the refs swallowed the whistle for Kobe? Imagine if he would have gotten the same treatment as a Lebron or hell as a Harden today. He would probably be much closer to Kareem's point record.

Let me ask you... your life depends on 1 game, you would pick Lebron over Kobe?

I'll give LeBron rebounds, and probably passing as well. His size and athleticism undeniably gives him a greater advantage in those areas.

In everything else skill wise (3pt, post game, footwork, PnR, defense-man and off ball) and mentality wise (this doesn't even require an argument), you have to take Kobe if you're starting a team from scratch.


LeBron's career average for 3 point shooting is higher than Kobe or Jordan... and will probably only get better. It's true that this only became a thing recently... so maybe if Kobe were ten years younger he might have developed the three but he didn't so we'll never know.

LeBron averaged more steals and blocks... so although Kobe was more mobile... LeBron's size made him a good defender also.

As far as the last shot...

https://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:48 am    Post subject:

I would agree Kobe is the closest to MJ in terms of style of play. But as far of all time rankings go I have Lebron ranked higher than Kobe.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:31 am    Post subject:

These are not my words but I couldn’t have said it any better, damn this guy nailed it.

Quote:
My case for Kobe is that when compared to MJ u have to consider much much more than stats.. For starters, Kobe was the first ever guard drafted out of high school.. U gotta realize he was an experiment, a project.. Coach Harris thought young Kobe was too arrogant & immature mentally & physically since afterall Kobe was a scrawny 17 year old kid.. Anyhow Harris benched Kobe for the lockdown defender Eddie Jones.. Kobe & Harris did not like each other to say it nicely.. Now MJ, had 3 yrs of college ball under his belt & was drafted by a dormant franchise who needed a savior.. Kobe was drafted to an iconic franchise that was stocked with talent & the most dominant player in the league, Shaq.. let's look at the stats anyhow.. But because for 1 Kobe entered the league too early for his time & he left the league too late (due to his love of the game & competitive drive, don't know how u can fault those reasons) We r gonna ignore his first 2 years.. & last 3 years.. he should of retired after the career ending achillies tear obviously.. Soo lets take a look..

MJ is leading Mr. Bryant in
PPG by 3
RPG by 0.5
APG by 0.2

Lol nooooo Kobe is nowhere close Ok..?

Now. Lets also take into account that,

1. Kobe had to defer to Shaq for years!! MJ was always Batman, never Robin.. Yes Shaq helped Kobe get 3 rings but at what cost? Kobe takes a major statistical hit for having to defer..

2. Kobe played in the west which lets be real has always been the tougher conference since the 70s..

3. When Jordan played double teaming was all but illegal.. Not in Kobe's day.. Kobe is by far the most double teamed guard in NBA history & for damn good reason. Kobe is on the record for saying he wished he played in Jordan's era for this reason..

4. Peep the shot chart.. And I tell this to LeBron fans all the time.. And it also is true when comparing Kobe & MJ... Kobe is the more complete scorer by far.. And it isn't a debate. He is effective from literally every area of the floor..

So yeah I'll give MJ defense all day he is the better player.. But hey Kobe is absolutely by no means exactly a slouch on d.. I just feel Kobe is the better, more complete scoring guard of all time.. Stats never tell the whole story, there r so many circumstances & intangibles to consider.. Oh & when the Mamba dropped 81 on Dwayne Casey's Raptors, Casey will tell u the gameplan was to try and avoid excessive double teaming on Kobe.. It didn't exactly pan out.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:44 am    Post subject:

Only thing I disagree with is the defense part. Kobe was every bit the defender that Jordan was. 9 time all defensive first team, 12 time all defensive team. Prime Kobe was unstoppable one on one. Never seen a player that can make any shot on the court like Kobe could. Fading 30 footers, behind and over the backboard, left handed 3 in the corner at the shot clock buzzer etc.. I would take prime Kobe over prime Jordan in a one on one any day. Jordan couldn’t hit all the impossible heavily contested shots that Kobe did consistently throughout his career from the perimeter...

I also do not care for LeBron’s inflated stats. We remember the stretch of the 2012 season when Kobe was consistently getting over 10 assists per game. There’s nothing Kobe couldn’t do. Also name me a player that had more poster dunks as well as blocked dunk attempts, not only from the chase down, Kobe used to block guys’ dunk attempts going straight up vertical in front of them.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:52 am    Post subject: Re: Kerr picks Kobe not Lebron as closest to MJ

Jellojigglin wrote:
I liked his comments about Kobe getting open with his footwork.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_n2QwGBR7a8



Summary: Kerr said Kobe was the closest player to Jordan in terms of personality and style of play, and a big reason for Kobe's success was his footwork, which allowed him to get off shots easily.

Can't disagree with any of that.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:55 am    Post subject:

Also go on youtube and check both Kobe’s top 50 plays and Jordan’s

Kobe’s is much greater.

To be fair, Kobe’s career highlight reel puts every other NBA player’s in history to shame.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:58 am    Post subject:

BizLA wrote:
These are not my words but I couldn’t have said it any better, damn this guy nailed it.
We r gonna ignore his first 2 years.. & last 3 years.. he should of retired after the career ending achillies tear obviously.. Soo lets take a look..

MJ is leading Mr. Bryant in
PPG by 3
RPG by 0.5
APG by 0.2



Eh. You could just as easily say Jordan's last two years with Washington shouldn't count, nor should the partial year when he came back from baseball, or his second year when he played only 17 games because of injuries. When you spin it that way, the averages change dramatically again.

The bottom line is anytime you need to cherrypick stats, and say "such and such" years don't count for my guy, you've already lost the argument with most people.


Last edited by activeverb on Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:00 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
BizLA wrote:
These are not my words but I couldn’t have said it any better, damn this guy nailed it.
We r gonna ignore his first 2 years.. & last 3 years.. he should of retired after the career ending achillies tear obviously.. Soo lets take a look..

MJ is leading Mr. Bryant in
PPG by 3
RPG by 0.5
APG by 0.2



Eh. You could just as easily say Jordan's last two years with Washington shouldn't count, nor should the partial year when he came back from baseball. Then the stats change dramatically again.

The bottom line is anytime you need to cherrypick stats, and say "such and such" years don't count, you've already lost the argument with most people.


That’s fine.. Eye test tells me Kobe Bryant > Michael Jordan
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:06 am    Post subject:

kobe
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:08 am    Post subject:

BizLA wrote:


That’s fine.. Eye test tells me Kobe Bryant > Michael Jordan



Of course. You're a Kobe fan so he's always going to win your eye test against everyone, just as Jordan, Lebron, Shaq, etc, are going to win the eye test with their fans.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:18 am    Post subject:

Kobe is better than lebron, and I don't even know why we're having this ridiculous argument...oh yeah, I know why...because lebrons posse and Nike are paying the media to tell everyone he's the GOAT, which is nothing more than propaganda. He's #8 on my all -time list, and that's just counting the players I've seen play since 85. I could easily make a case for him not even being in my top 10. To me, he's nothing more than a more agile Karl Malone.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:20 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
BizLA wrote:


That’s fine.. Eye test tells me Kobe Bryant > Michael Jordan



Of course. You're a Kobe fan so he's always going to win your eye test against everyone, just as Jordan, Lebron, Shaq, etc, are going to win the eye test with their fans.


A realistic Kobe fan.

Kobe overcame many more obstacles in his career than Jordan. While Kobe was definitely a great athlete, obviously wasn’t the same athlete that Jordan was. Jordan jumped higher, had much bigger hands and an overall stronger frame. Kobe suffered a lot more injuries because of this as well. Let’s not forget how many times Kobe played thru injuries that 98% of players sit for. Let’s not forget Kobe won a championship with a broken finger on his shooting hand.. I can go on and on. It’s all perspective true. Just can’t help but feel like Kobe went thru everything imaginable. Overcame all the odds. Skinny high school kid, Shaq drama, departure of a dynasty, legal issues, the whole world turning against him, his best years wasted with garbage teams, the achilles tear etc.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:24 am    Post subject:

There’s a reason why Kobe got MVP chants in every road arena for years, after many people hated him.

Kobe moved people. I admit Jordan did too.

LeBron will never have that affect. Even Curry gets more love than LeBron.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:26 am    Post subject:

BizLA wrote:
Quote:
2. Kobe played in the west which lets be real has always been the tougher conference since the 70s..

3. When Jordan played double teaming was all but illegal.. Not in Kobe's day.. Kobe is by far the most double teamed guard in NBA history & for damn good reason. Kobe is on the record for saying he wished he played in Jordan's era for this reason..


What? The EC was arguably the stronger conference for most of MJ's career, and double teaming was commonplace during MJ's career.

Anyway, the Kobe vs. MJ arguments have been beaten to death. As I've said in other threads on the subjects, the biggest single threat to Kobe's long term standing are the metrics which show that he did not play elite defense on a consistent basis. The same is true for MJ to some extent, but Kobe's whole career falls within the so-called databall era. If you want to see what this looks like, check out the article about Kobe that is linked in the 40 Greatest Careers thread in General. The article ranks players purely on game impact, ignoring rings and the like. It's an interesting analysis, whether you agree with it or not.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:34 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
BizLA wrote:
Quote:
2. Kobe played in the west which lets be real has always been the tougher conference since the 70s..

3. When Jordan played double teaming was all but illegal.. Not in Kobe's day.. Kobe is by far the most double teamed guard in NBA history & for damn good reason. Kobe is on the record for saying he wished he played in Jordan's era for this reason..


What? The EC was arguably the stronger conference for most of MJ's career, and double teaming was commonplace during MJ's career.

Anyway, the Kobe vs. MJ arguments have been beaten to death. As I've said in other threads on the subjects, the biggest single threat to Kobe's long term standing are the metrics which show that he did not play elite defense on a consistent basis. The same is true for MJ to some extent, but Kobe's whole career falls within the so-called databall era. If you want to see what this looks like, check out the article about Kobe that is linked in the 40 Greatest Careers thread in General. The article ranks players purely on game impact, ignoring rings and the like. It's an interesting analysis, whether you agree with it or not.


Everyone who watched Kobe his entire career knows he was a lockdown defender...Numbers lie.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:43 am    Post subject:

BizLA wrote:
activeverb wrote:
BizLA wrote:


That’s fine.. Eye test tells me Kobe Bryant > Michael Jordan



Of course. You're a Kobe fan so he's always going to win your eye test against everyone, just as Jordan, Lebron, Shaq, etc, are going to win the eye test with their fans.


A realistic Kobe fan.

Kobe overcame many more obstacles in his career than Jordan. While Kobe was definitely a great athlete, obviously wasn’t the same athlete that Jordan was. Jordan jumped higher, had much bigger hands and an overall stronger frame. Kobe suffered a lot more injuries because of this as well. Let’s not forget how many times Kobe played thru injuries that 98% of players sit for. Let’s not forget Kobe won a championship with a broken finger on his shooting hand.. I can go on and on. It’s all perspective true. Just can’t help but feel like Kobe went thru everything imaginable. Overcame all the odds. Skinny high school kid, Shaq drama, departure of a dynasty, legal issues, the whole world turning against him, his best years wasted with garbage teams, the achilles tear etc.


Like I said, a fan of Jordan, Lebron, Shaq. etc could write an equally impressive paragraph about their guy, and then declare how that proves their superiority.

Anyway, you love Kobe and he's your #1 guy. That's cool with me.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:01 pm    Post subject:

BizLA wrote:
There’s a reason why Kobe got MVP chants in every road arena for years, after many people hated him.

Kobe moved people. I admit Jordan did too.

LeBron will never have that affect. Even Curry gets more love than LeBron.



The most objective way to evaluate a celebrity is their Q rating, a measurement of how well known and how liked a celebrity is. (It's also the key thing that advertisers rely on to determine who they will pay to promote their products). I haven't seen a recent Q rating for Lebron, but I know about three years ago he was neck-and-neck with Curry.

In Gallup's comparable rating system, James’ likability ranked low among celebrities, but he over-indexed on other attributes like influential, successful, role model and trendsetter.

All this shows that Lebron is a divisive figure who inspires both great respect and great dislike, often at the same time. The same was true with Kobe, though the dislike waned as he entered the last stages of his career and became viewed as an elder statesman type.

It will be interesting to see if that happens for Lebron too.


Last edited by activeverb on Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:22 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:03 pm    Post subject:

that was great and all until Kerr started going on about kobe carrying the ball as if Kobe is the one that started it
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:32 pm    Post subject:

BizLA wrote:
Only thing I disagree with is the defense part. Kobe was every bit the defender that Jordan was. 9 time all defensive first team, 12 time all defensive team. Prime Kobe was unstoppable one on one. Never seen a player that can make any shot on the court like Kobe could. Fading 30 footers, behind and over the backboard, left handed 3 in the corner at the shot clock buzzer etc.. I would take prime Kobe over prime Jordan in a one on one any day. Jordan couldn’t hit all the impossible heavily contested shots that Kobe did consistently throughout his career from the perimeter...

I also do not care for LeBron’s inflated stats. We remember the stretch of the 2012 season when Kobe was consistently getting over 10 assists per game. There’s nothing Kobe couldn’t do. Also name me a player that had more poster dunks as well as blocked dunk attempts, not only from the chase down, Kobe used to block guys’ dunk attempts going straight up vertical in front of them.


Since the metrics were brought up, why do you think the statistics of Kobe as a defender are so much different than the popular opinion of his defense and the awards he received? I have been wondering if the gap has been explained somewhere.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:44 pm    Post subject:

The guys that have played against or with both Lebron and Kobe know who the better player is. Here's another interesting take on this from Jim Jackson:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:46 pm    Post subject:

Treble Clef wrote:
BizLA wrote:
Only thing I disagree with is the defense part. Kobe was every bit the defender that Jordan was. 9 time all defensive first team, 12 time all defensive team. Prime Kobe was unstoppable one on one. Never seen a player that can make any shot on the court like Kobe could. Fading 30 footers, behind and over the backboard, left handed 3 in the corner at the shot clock buzzer etc.. I would take prime Kobe over prime Jordan in a one on one any day. Jordan couldn’t hit all the impossible heavily contested shots that Kobe did consistently throughout his career from the perimeter...

I also do not care for LeBron’s inflated stats. We remember the stretch of the 2012 season when Kobe was consistently getting over 10 assists per game. There’s nothing Kobe couldn’t do. Also name me a player that had more poster dunks as well as blocked dunk attempts, not only from the chase down, Kobe used to block guys’ dunk attempts going straight up vertical in front of them.


Since the metrics were brought up, why do you think the statistics of Kobe as a defender are so much different than the popular opinion of his defense and the awards he received? I have been wondering if the gap has been explained somewhere.


Ask any statistician and they'll tell you that the advanced metrics for defense is not very good currently. Synergy sports does the best job of evaluating it but other stats like DWS, DRating, DBPM are not very good indicators of indivdual defense.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:51 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
BizLA wrote:
Quote:
2. Kobe played in the west which lets be real has always been the tougher conference since the 70s..

3. When Jordan played double teaming was all but illegal.. Not in Kobe's day.. Kobe is by far the most double teamed guard in NBA history & for damn good reason. Kobe is on the record for saying he wished he played in Jordan's era for this reason..


What? The EC was arguably the stronger conference for most of MJ's career, and double teaming was commonplace during MJ's career.

Anyway, the Kobe vs. MJ arguments have been beaten to death. As I've said in other threads on the subjects, the biggest single threat to Kobe's long term standing are the metrics which show that he did not play elite defense on a consistent basis. The same is true for MJ to some extent, but Kobe's whole career falls within the so-called databall era. If you want to see what this looks like, check out the article about Kobe that is linked in the 40 Greatest Careers thread in General. The article ranks players purely on game impact, ignoring rings and the like. It's an interesting analysis, whether you agree with it or not.


This is not a great analysis because the dude is mostly using his own made up statistics for evaluation and he has no advanced degrees in such a field to be taken seriously with those made up stats

I'd like to hear from tox and Cranjis about this dude's stats
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:54 pm    Post subject:

The Juggernaut wrote:
Treble Clef wrote:
BizLA wrote:
Only thing I disagree with is the defense part. Kobe was every bit the defender that Jordan was. 9 time all defensive first team, 12 time all defensive team. Prime Kobe was unstoppable one on one. Never seen a player that can make any shot on the court like Kobe could. Fading 30 footers, behind and over the backboard, left handed 3 in the corner at the shot clock buzzer etc.. I would take prime Kobe over prime Jordan in a one on one any day. Jordan couldn’t hit all the impossible heavily contested shots that Kobe did consistently throughout his career from the perimeter...

I also do not care for LeBron’s inflated stats. We remember the stretch of the 2012 season when Kobe was consistently getting over 10 assists per game. There’s nothing Kobe couldn’t do. Also name me a player that had more poster dunks as well as blocked dunk attempts, not only from the chase down, Kobe used to block guys’ dunk attempts going straight up vertical in front of them.


Since the metrics were brought up, why do you think the statistics of Kobe as a defender are so much different than the popular opinion of his defense and the awards he received? I have been wondering if the gap has been explained somewhere.


Ask any statistician and they'll tell you that the advanced metrics for defense is not very good currently. Synergy sports does the best job of evaluating it but other stats like DWS, DRating, DBPM are not very good indicators of indivdual defense.


Yes I think it is hard because the team statistics will skew the individual statistics but I was hoping to see other examples of defenders the stats have historically "lied" about. I tried looking up the normal ratings for other all league defenders and they all had great numbers. Are there other players in Kobe's situation? Or other players who have great metrics but weren't actually good defenders? I'm curious.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:58 pm    Post subject:

The Juggernaut wrote:
This is not a great analysis because the dude is mostly using his own made up statistics for evaluation and he has no advanced degrees in such a field to be taken seriously with those made up stats


Eh. The regulars on this board knew it was true at the time. It was a regular annual event to roll our collective eyes when Kobe got picked to the all-defense team. He could play elite defense, but he didn't do it much. We all knew it.

Anyway, you can talk about made up stats and advanced degrees all you want, but the world has moved on from the days when you could dismiss metrics so easily. We aren't talking about John Hollinger and PER any more.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:05 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
This is not a great analysis because the dude is mostly using his own made up statistics for evaluation and he has no advanced degrees in such a field to be taken seriously with those made up stats


Eh. The regulars on this board knew it was true at the time. It was a regular annual event to roll our collective eyes when Kobe got picked to the all-defense team. He could play elite defense, but he didn't do it much. We all knew it.

Anyway, you can talk about made up stats and advanced degrees all you want, but the world has moved on from the days when you could dismiss metrics so easily. We aren't talking about John Hollinger and PER any more.


I've been on this board for a while and you have been a known Kobe detractor. Kobe received maybe 3-4 all defense selections he didn't deserve but the same is true for Lebron and MJ. We all know that when it came time to defend Kobe is right there with the best. Coaches knew that.

Actually it is the exact same thing as Hollinger and his PER. This dude has 0 credentials to be taken seriously for his made up metrics.
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