***OFFICIAL 2018 NBA PLAYOFFS GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD***
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ChickenStu
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:18 am    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
MJST wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
Harden is inarguably a more efficient scorer than Kobe. How is that even a debate?


Kobe had 11 seasons shooting 45% from the field or higher and Harden's only had 1, 5 years ago.

That's a good starting point.


Harden's TS% is better than Kobe's... Kobe was a more skilled scorer and shot creator... but like Shaq's repetoire was very simple... Harden is very efficient at what he does, which is drive to the rim and draw fouls and shoot the three fairly well.

Not really a fair comparison, because the game was different than when Kobe played... but Harden is a master of what he does, even though it doesn't look as flashy.


I think people are equating efficiency with who is better. There can be a difference. The fact is that James Harden is more efficient with scoring more points on less shots. That doesn't mean he's a better player.

But citing shooting percentages? Respectfully, that barely tells the story. And it works both ways. For example, Jordan Clarkson has a higher FG % and a much better TS % than Russell Westbrook did this season. But I would never argue in my right mind that Clarkson is better. That would be beyond dumb.

So, yes, James Harden is really efficient. More efficient on offense than Kobe was. That doesn't mean he is better than Kobe was in his prime overall. But Kobe simply never had Harden's 3-ball. Makes a huge difference in how you calculate efficiency.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:37 am    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
MJST wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
Harden is inarguably a more efficient scorer than Kobe. How is that even a debate?


Kobe had 11 seasons shooting 45% from the field or higher and Harden's only had 1, 5 years ago.

That's a good starting point.


Harden's TS% is better than Kobe's... Kobe was a more skilled scorer and shot creator... but like Shaq's repertoire was very simple... Harden is very efficient at what he does, which is drive to the rim and draw fouls and shoot the three fairly well.



So you say Kobe's repertoire was "simple" but break down Harden's game to essentially "drive to the rim to get fouled, or shoot three."

You sure you didn't mean to reverse that.

Kobe's repertoire was far more advanced than Hardens.


I'm guessing what you meant to infer was that Kobe's repertoire and shot making ability and all around offensive skillset was far more advanced than Harden's but that Harden benefits from a playstyle that maximizes his far more simpler task of getting fouled or shooting a three.
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Last edited by MJST on Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:45 am; edited 2 times in total
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Sentient Meat
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:40 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
MJST wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
Harden is inarguably a more efficient scorer than Kobe. How is that even a debate?


Kobe had 11 seasons shooting 45% from the field or higher and Harden's only had 1, 5 years ago.

That's a good starting point.


Harden's TS% is better than Kobe's... Kobe was a more skilled scorer and shot creator... but like Shaq's repertoire was very simple... Harden is very efficient at what he does, which is drive to the rim and draw fouls and shoot the three fairly well.




So you say Kobe's repertoire was "simple" but break down Harden's game to essentially "drive to the rim to get fouled, or shoot three."

You sure you didn't mean to reverse that.

Kobe's repertoire was far more advanced than Hardens.


I'm guessing what you meant to infer was that Kobe's repertoire and shot making ability and all around offensive skillset was far more advanced than Harden's but that Harden benefits from a playstyle that maximizes his far more simpler task of getting fouled or shooting a three.


My point was that Shaq and Harden had a simple repetoire... Kobe's was more advanced... maybe I didn't punctuate it properly.
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MJST
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:47 am    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
MJST wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
MJST wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
Harden is inarguably a more efficient scorer than Kobe. How is that even a debate?


Kobe had 11 seasons shooting 45% from the field or higher and Harden's only had 1, 5 years ago.

That's a good starting point.


Harden's TS% is better than Kobe's... Kobe was a more skilled scorer and shot creator... but like Shaq's repertoire was very simple... Harden is very efficient at what he does, which is drive to the rim and draw fouls and shoot the three fairly well.




So you say Kobe's repertoire was "simple" but break down Harden's game to essentially "drive to the rim to get fouled, or shoot three."

You sure you didn't mean to reverse that.

Kobe's repertoire was far more advanced than Hardens.


I'm guessing what you meant to infer was that Kobe's repertoire and shot making ability and all around offensive skillset was far more advanced than Harden's but that Harden benefits from a playstyle that maximizes his far more simpler task of getting fouled or shooting a three.


My point was that Shaq and Harden had a simple repetoire... Kobe's was more advanced... maybe I didn't punctuate it properly.


Here's the thing, if Harden was a far more efficient scorer than Kobe, he wouldn't shrink statistically 9 out of 10 times against playoff officiating when he no longer gets bailed out. Dude's efficiency drops like a "Rocket" so to speak.

Against OKC in 2012-2013 his field goal percentage dropped to 39.1%
Against Portland 2013-2014 his field goal percentage dropped to 37.6%
2014-2015 he FINALLY had a good playoff run till the 2nd round where it dropped to 39% Field Goal again and then the final game against Golden State where he had that 2-11 game.
2015-2016 he shot 41% from the field and 31% from three in the playoffs
2016-2017 he shot 41% from the field and 24% from three in the 1st round and 41% from the field and 30% from three in the 2nd round. Know what makes that first round efficiency even worse? He got to the line 14 TIMES A GAME AND STILL ONLY MANAGED 41% from the field and 24% from Three with his style....


What THAT goes to show you... is that if you take away the ticky tack from James Harden's game which is based around getting cheap fouls. His offensive 'efficiency' drops like a freaking rock at a level I can't even mention any other star player has dropped when they can no longer depend on the refs to bail them out.

And that's where that "simplicity" works against him.

Say what you will about Shaq's simplicity, he was advanced enough to score without having to rely on the refs to ensure it.

You take the refs away from Harden and everything he does drops like at a level no other star can say they've shrank to. James Harden's entire game is based around the refs helping him, when you look at the stats once he gets to the playoffs it's mind boggling and eye opening.

This guy doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath of scoring efficiency/ability with Kobe's again
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:09 am    Post subject:

Harden and CP3 will be exposed before the playoffs are done. Both are too dependent on the refs to be successful. They barely beat a stupid Wolves team last night.
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BynumForThree
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:58 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
BynumForThree wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Barkley trying to argue Harden is a better scorer than Kobe.

Harden is a far more efficient scorer than Kobe. When you look at the numbers it honestly really isn't close. Harden is a freak.


More efficient than Kobe whom shot 45-46% from the field across his entire career till he tanked those percentages in his last two seasons?

Kobe whom had 11 seasons scoring above 45% from the field or higher to Harden's 1?

Harden's a more efficient scorer than THAT Kobe? Or is this some other Kobe you're talking about?

Using raw FG% as an indicator for efficiency in 2018. Charles Barkley is that you?

Compare their TS% and then try to argue Kobe is more efficient than Harden.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:28 am    Post subject:

BynumForThree wrote:
MJST wrote:
BynumForThree wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Barkley trying to argue Harden is a better scorer than Kobe.

Harden is a far more efficient scorer than Kobe. When you look at the numbers it honestly really isn't close. Harden is a freak.


More efficient than Kobe whom shot 45-46% from the field across his entire career till he tanked those percentages in his last two seasons?

Kobe whom had 11 seasons scoring above 45% from the field or higher to Harden's 1?

Harden's a more efficient scorer than THAT Kobe? Or is this some other Kobe you're talking about?

Using raw FG% as an indicator for efficiency in 2018. Charles Barkley is that you?

Compare their TS% and then try to argue Kobe is more efficient than Harden.

Oh you poor chap, you didn't just "lol" at a person using one stat, then referenced a stat yourself to make your own point did you?
My god the irony, I'm guessing you weren't old enough to see games where kobe would get hacked with no call but ironically see no problem with hardens numbers being inflated with phantom calls from the refs, or players afraid to guard harden like kobe got guarded for fear of a whistle.
With that logic, I bet you don't believe in global warming cause it's been a long winter...
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:49 am    Post subject:

Won't chime in too much here but will throw in my two cents.

1. Philly will win the East

2. Houston will not beat the Warriors if Curry is remotely healthy, and they won't need him the first round and should have an easy second round opponent (Pelicans and Blazers). Houston has no one that can deal with Durant.

3. Cavs will lose in the first round, in fact Indy may be the second best team in the East after Philly.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:04 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
drops like a "Rocket"


so is the defining feature of a rocket that it drops? I mean I get what you mean is that it goes fast, but all rockets do drop, eventually... even though their purpose is to rise. hmm
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:32 am    Post subject:

lakers4life78 wrote:
Won't chime in too much here but will throw in my two cents.

1. Philly will win the East

2. Houston will not beat the Warriors if Curry is remotely healthy, and they won't need him the first round and should have an easy second round opponent (Pelicans and Blazers). Houston has no one that can deal with Durant.

3. Cavs will lose in the first round, in fact Indy may be the second best team in the East after Philly.


I don't think the Warriors can beat Ad and the pels. Rondo can handle a hobbled curry, and no one can guard AD

I'm curious who will guard AD and Mirotic?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:06 am    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
MJST wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
Harden is inarguably a more efficient scorer than Kobe. How is that even a debate?


Kobe had 11 seasons shooting 45% from the field or higher and Harden's only had 1, 5 years ago.

That's a good starting point.


Harden's TS% is better than Kobe's... Kobe was a more skilled scorer and shot creator... but like Shaq's repetoire was very simple... Harden is very efficient at what he does, which is drive to the rim and draw fouls and shoot the three fairly well.

Not really a fair comparison, because the game was different than when Kobe played... but Harden is a master of what he does, even though it doesn't look as flashy.


Kobe's repertoire was "very simple"? What am I reading.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:25 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
MJST wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
Harden is inarguably a more efficient scorer than Kobe. How is that even a debate?


Kobe had 11 seasons shooting 45% from the field or higher and Harden's only had 1, 5 years ago.

That's a good starting point.


Harden's TS% is better than Kobe's... Kobe was a more skilled scorer and shot creator... but like Shaq's repertoire was very simple... Harden is very efficient at what he does, which is drive to the rim and draw fouls and shoot the three fairly well.



So you say Kobe's repertoire was "simple" but break down Harden's game to essentially "drive to the rim to get fouled, or shoot three."

You sure you didn't mean to reverse that.

Kobe's repertoire was far more advanced than Hardens.


I'm guessing what you meant to infer was that Kobe's repertoire and shot making ability and all around offensive skillset was far more advanced than Harden's but that Harden benefits from a playstyle that maximizes his far more simpler task of getting fouled or shooting a three.


THIS^^^


Kobe would shoot contested baseline jumpers with triple teams and make it at a high rate. I think people forgot just how good Kobe was. The Dude was on another level. Harden is good but he cant even hold Kobe Nike Sock.
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Sentient Meat
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:27 am    Post subject:

Ziggy wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
MJST wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
Harden is inarguably a more efficient scorer than Kobe. How is that even a debate?


Kobe had 11 seasons shooting 45% from the field or higher and Harden's only had 1, 5 years ago.

That's a good starting point.


Harden's TS% is better than Kobe's... Kobe was a more skilled scorer and shot creator... but like Shaq's repetoire was very simple... Harden is very efficient at what he does, which is drive to the rim and draw fouls and shoot the three fairly well.

Not really a fair comparison, because the game was different than when Kobe played... but Harden is a master of what he does, even though it doesn't look as flashy.


Kobe's repertoire was "very simple"? What am I reading.


We already clarified this above... but I will rewrite this since it is causing confusion.

Harden's TS% is better than Kobe's. Kobe was a more skilled scorer and shot creator. But in the same way Shaq's repetoire was very simple, Harden is very efficient at what he does, which is drive to the rim and draw fouls, as well as shoot the three fairly well.
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noahp45
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:32 am    Post subject:

Kobe stats on a the 80 point game.

28 of 46 that is 60% shooting
7of 13 from 3 that is 53%
18 of 20 from Free throws that is 90%
6 rebounds
only 3 Turnovers, 1 foul and 3 steals he was a +25.


Come on man show me Harden best night ever numbers. The dude wishes he was Kobe
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Sentient Meat
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:39 am    Post subject:

Harden averaged 15.3 shots over his career for 23 PPG

Kobe averaged 19.5 shots for 25 PPG

If Harden took 19.5 shots he'd average 29.3 PPG

Kobe is a more spectacular player, could beat Harden one on one... but over time Harden is more efficient.

The year Kobe averaged 35... Harden would've averaged 40 if he took 27 shots per game.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:54 am    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
Harden averaged 15.3 shots over his career for 23 PPG

Kobe averaged 19.5 shots for 25 PPG

If Harden took 19.5 shots he'd average 29.3 PPG

Kobe is a more spectacular player, could beat Harden one on one... but over time Harden is more efficient.

The year Kobe averaged 35... Harden would've averaged 40 if he took 27 shots per game.

That's not how it would work, Harden isn't keeping the same efficiency if he takes more shots.
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Sentient Meat
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:57 am    Post subject:

Mr.81 wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
Harden averaged 15.3 shots over his career for 23 PPG

Kobe averaged 19.5 shots for 25 PPG

If Harden took 19.5 shots he'd average 29.3 PPG

Kobe is a more spectacular player, could beat Harden one on one... but over time Harden is more efficient.

The year Kobe averaged 35... Harden would've averaged 40 if he took 27 shots per game.

That's not how it would work, Harden isn't keeping the same efficiency if he takes more shots.


It is an oversimplification, but how about this. When Harden was removed from Durant and Westbrook... his TS with only Lin/Asik/Parsons was still over 60%.

I don't even like Harden... and was rooting for them to lose yesterday... I just like his efficiency. The man is a smart player who uses his shots wisely instead of chuck like Westbrook.
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noahp45
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:34 pm    Post subject:

Harden so profient with that step back travel
https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/04/james-harden-footwork-travel-step-back-wiggins-video-rockets-wolves-nba-playoffs-reaction
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:42 pm    Post subject:

noahp45 wrote:
Kobe stats on a the 80 point game.

28 of 46 that is 60% shooting
7of 13 from 3 that is 53%
18 of 20 from Free throws that is 90%
6 rebounds
only 3 Turnovers, 1 foul and 3 steals he was a +25.


Come on man show me Harden best night ever numbers. The dude wishes he was Kobe


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:42 pm    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
MJST wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
MJST wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
Harden is inarguably a more efficient scorer than Kobe. How is that even a debate?


Kobe had 11 seasons shooting 45% from the field or higher and Harden's only had 1, 5 years ago.

That's a good starting point.


Harden's TS% is better than Kobe's... Kobe was a more skilled scorer and shot creator... but like Shaq's repertoire was very simple... Harden is very efficient at what he does, which is drive to the rim and draw fouls and shoot the three fairly well.




So you say Kobe's repertoire was "simple" but break down Harden's game to essentially "drive to the rim to get fouled, or shoot three."

You sure you didn't mean to reverse that.

Kobe's repertoire was far more advanced than Hardens.


I'm guessing what you meant to infer was that Kobe's repertoire and shot making ability and all around offensive skillset was far more advanced than Harden's but that Harden benefits from a playstyle that maximizes his far more simpler task of getting fouled or shooting a three.


My point was that Shaq and Harden had a simple repetoire... Kobe's was more advanced... maybe I didn't punctuate it properly.



Harden doesn't play a lick of defense whereas Kobe locks down his opponent.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:44 pm    Post subject:

noahp45 wrote:
Harden so profient with that step back travel
https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/04/james-harden-footwork-travel-step-back-wiggins-video-rockets-wolves-nba-playoffs-reaction

LOL! I remember saying travel when I saw that live!
In all seriousness however, I am shocked to the point of wanting to quit coming on LG over people talking about harden having a better TS% when the guy:
1) Travels, always.
2) Bailed out by the refs, always.

Kob would get the latter sometimes... But NEVER the former...

Say it with me slowly Harden supporters:
HARDEN WOULD NOT HAVE THE SAME NUMBERS IN KOBE'S ERA, IF OFFICIATED THE SAME AS KOBE.
I mean, cmon, you can't make this stuff up, It's like an SNL sketch... pure comedy...


Last edited by Christopher Walken on Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:48 pm    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
Drifts wrote:
harden is the new kobe... he's just elevated his game to a different level.


If you want to beat the Rockets, you have to shut down Harden. Spurs did it last year when they held him to 10 points in an elimination game.


Kawhi say hi
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MJST
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:20 pm    Post subject:

JerryWest_44 wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
Drifts wrote:
harden is the new kobe... he's just elevated his game to a different level.


If you want to beat the Rockets, you have to shut down Harden. Spurs did it last year when they held him to 10 points in an elimination game.


Kawhi say hi


The entire 2001 Spurs team which was one of the best defensive teams of all time said hi to a 21-22 year old Kobe... guess what happened.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:23 pm    Post subject:

Christopher Walken wrote:
noahp45 wrote:
Harden so profient with that step back travel
https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/04/james-harden-footwork-travel-step-back-wiggins-video-rockets-wolves-nba-playoffs-reaction

LOL! I remember saying travel when I saw that live!
In all seriousness however, I am shocked to the point of wanting to quit coming on LG over people talking about harden having a better TS% when the guy:
1) Travels, always.
2) Bailed out by the refs, always.

Kob would get the latter sometimes... But NEVER the former...

Say it with me slowly Harden supporters:
HARDEN WOULD NOT HAVE THE SAME NUMBERS IN KOBE'S ERA, IF OFFICIATED THE SAME AS KOBE.
I mean, cmon, you can't make this stuff up, It's like an SNL sketch... pure comedy...


You hit the Nail on the Head Brother!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:30 pm    Post subject:

Oh Harden

Travels regularly
Flops regularly
chokes in the big moments
no defense

I'll take Kobe

keep your efficiency and stat padding
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