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SocalDevin
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 5:23 pm    Post subject:

smh..
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 5:27 pm    Post subject:

You've called Ingram something to the effect of "the lowest IQ off-ball defender.. or gets lost more than anyone you've ever seen"

I'm simply saying the stats look right, that he's very average at some stuff.. where he actually has legit upside. And it upsets you.
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 5:31 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Ok thanks for those numbers. It's pretty much what I expected. When he gets stronger and gives more effort, he won't have trouble getting over screens, and that length will be put to much better use.
39th percentile chasing shooters coming off screens , that's the mediocre effort I see. And it's been a talking point here even in his rookie year, about how he can't allow so much seperation when chasing guys - that seperation then gets coupled with a good screen on the skinny man....

His ISO #s should also be better, 42nd percentile is meh. Why isn't his length translating to better much numbers there? I say feet quickness and effort have to improve. He's the 2nd longest SF in the league..


off the top of my head I think both Giannis and Durant are taller with longer wing spans.

Also not sure how you can say he has mediocre effort coming off screens, from what I seen I think it's more because he literally dies when he gets hit with a screen. I don't think that's effort, that's being physically weak.
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 5:32 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
You've called Ingram something to the effect of "the lowest IQ off-ball defender.. or gets lost more than anyone you've ever seen"

I'm simply saying the stats look right, that he's very average at some stuff.. where he actually has legit upside. And it upsets you.


Takes I don't agree with don't upset me boss.. You questioning his effort and stating "Probably unrealistic to expect a skinny 20yo to be able to compete his ass off on D, though." Doesn't line up with reality.. I also thought it was amusing that you tried to use GT's synergy stats to prove a bad point.

And yes, he needs to improve off ball..
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 5:37 pm    Post subject:

Endless3D wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Ok thanks for those numbers. It's pretty much what I expected. When he gets stronger and gives more effort, he won't have trouble getting over screens, and that length will be put to much better use.
39th percentile chasing shooters coming off screens , that's the mediocre effort I see. And it's been a talking point here even in his rookie year, about how he can't allow so much seperation when chasing guys - that seperation then gets coupled with a good screen on the skinny man....

His ISO #s should also be better, 42nd percentile is meh. Why isn't his length translating to better much numbers there? I say feet quickness and effort have to improve. He's the 2nd longest SF in the league..


off the top of my head I think both Giannis and Durant are taller with longer wing spans.

Also not sure how you can say he has mediocre effort coming off screens, from what I seen I think it's more because he literally dies when he gets hit with a screen. I don't think that's effort, that's being physically weak.

I consider Giannis a 4.. but those 3 guys are heads and shoulders above all SF's in length aside from Ariza.. I'm saying he's practically in his own league compared to his openents length wise, and it should manifest better numbers. Why hasn't it?
We've been over the point of him leaving too much seperarion when chasing guys going over screens, it's not just about him dying on screens.
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 5:39 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
You've called Ingram something to the effect of "the lowest IQ off-ball defender.. or gets lost more than anyone you've ever seen"

I'm simply saying the stats look right, that he's very average at some stuff.. where he actually has legit upside. And it upsets you.


Takes I don't agree with don't upset me boss.. You questioning his effort and stating "Probably unrealistic to expect a skinny 20yo to be able to compete his ass off on D, though." Doesn't line up with reality.. I also thought it was amusing that you tried to use GT's synergy stats to prove a bad point.

And yes, he needs to improve off ball..


The 'bad' point is that the numbers are the numbers...
I very interested to see how he scored as an isolation defender.. and it's not good, not bad either..but I think it should be better when you're so much longer than your competition
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 5:45 pm    Post subject:

Is that what you're interested in now? Cause earlier you were questioning his effort, and saying it's unrealistic to expect him to be able to compete his ass off..

You don't hold your opponents to 3.5 percent lower shooting percentages with lousy effort.

You don't contend the NBA’s sixth-most 3-point attempts per game (4.2) with questionable effort.

An opp% of 45.1 looks really good for a guy who's effort is bad wouldn't you say?
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 5:49 pm    Post subject:

You can contest a spot-up shot with different urgency levels..I didn't see sprint-outs a lot, and even better would be sprinting around before the sprint to close, that definitely wasn't there.

So you don't think effort is implicated in getting lost on defense? There's a reason why there's some validity to players saying defense is all effort. Being locked in w movement , is effort
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 5:56 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Endless3D wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Ok thanks for those numbers. It's pretty much what I expected. When he gets stronger and gives more effort, he won't have trouble getting over screens, and that length will be put to much better use.
39th percentile chasing shooters coming off screens , that's the mediocre effort I see. And it's been a talking point here even in his rookie year, about how he can't allow so much seperation when chasing guys - that seperation then gets coupled with a good screen on the skinny man....

His ISO #s should also be better, 42nd percentile is meh. Why isn't his length translating to better much numbers there? I say feet quickness and effort have to improve. He's the 2nd longest SF in the league..


off the top of my head I think both Giannis and Durant are taller with longer wing spans.

Also not sure how you can say he has mediocre effort coming off screens, from what I seen I think it's more because he literally dies when he gets hit with a screen. I don't think that's effort, that's being physically weak.

I consider Giannis a 4.. but those 3 guys are heads and shoulders above all SF's in length aside from Ariza.. I'm saying he's practically in his own league compared to his openents length wise, and it should manifest better numbers. Why hasn't it?
We've been over the point of him leaving too much seperarion when chasing guys going over screens, it's not just about him dying on screens.


cause he's as much of a project on the defensive end as he is on the offensive end?

If he gets stronger and is able to fight through screens better I think his numbers will automatically improve off screens. His biggest problem is getting lost off ball and that's mostly effort but I genuinely don't think the coming off screens is because of effort, more so that once he gets hit with a screen it slows him down considerably and he isn't able to get back to full screen to close on times.

Imagine getting hit with a dude by a big dude at 24 hour, it's not easy to take that and still close out.
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SocalDevin
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 5:56 pm    Post subject:

Defense is definitely not all effort.. You could be a dumb hyper active defender right? Intelligence is just as important.

To answer your question no, effort isn't implicated in getting lost on defense. A lack of mental focus and preparation prior to the actual game is what I attribute it to.
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 6:02 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
Defense is definitely not all effort.. You could be a dumb hyper active defender right? Intelligence is just as important.

To answer your question no, effort isn't implicated in getting lost on defense. A lack of mental focus and preparation prior to the actual game is what I attribute it to.


If you don't think effort is implicated in getting lost on D, then you've never been tired in a basketball game.
There's a connectivity between attentiveness and effort.
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 6:06 pm    Post subject:

Endless3D wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Endless3D wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Ok thanks for those numbers. It's pretty much what I expected. When he gets stronger and gives more effort, he won't have trouble getting over screens, and that length will be put to much better use.
39th percentile chasing shooters coming off screens , that's the mediocre effort I see. And it's been a talking point here even in his rookie year, about how he can't allow so much seperation when chasing guys - that seperation then gets coupled with a good screen on the skinny man....

His ISO #s should also be better, 42nd percentile is meh. Why isn't his length translating to better much numbers there? I say feet quickness and effort have to improve. He's the 2nd longest SF in the league..


off the top of my head I think both Giannis and Durant are taller with longer wing spans.

Also not sure how you can say he has mediocre effort coming off screens, from what I seen I think it's more because he literally dies when he gets hit with a screen. I don't think that's effort, that's being physically weak.

I consider Giannis a 4.. but those 3 guys are heads and shoulders above all SF's in length aside from Ariza.. I'm saying he's practically in his own league compared to his openents length wise, and it should manifest better numbers. Why hasn't it?
We've been over the point of him leaving too much seperarion when chasing guys going over screens, it's not just about him dying on screens.


cause he's as much of a project on the defensive end as he is on the offensive end?

If he gets stronger and is able to fight through screens better I think his numbers will automatically improve off screens. His biggest problem is getting lost off ball and that's mostly effort but I genuinely don't think the coming off screens is because of effort, more so that once he gets hit with a screen it slows him down considerably and he isn't able to get back to full screen to close on times.

Imagine getting hit with a dude by a big dude at 24 hour, it's not easy to take that and still close out.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=214t14j9OP0 This is when we here talked about him leaving too much space as a rookie . He's not really dying on most of these screens ..he's leaving too much space at the start of the play, not recovering with urgency, or doesn't have enough explosion out of his break like a defensive back at 1:08.
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 6:07 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Defense is definitely not all effort.. You could be a dumb hyper active defender right? Intelligence is just as important.

To answer your question no, effort isn't implicated in getting lost on defense. A lack of mental focus and preparation prior to the actual game is what I attribute it to.


If you don't think effort is implicated in getting lost on D, then you've never been tired in a basketball game. Intelligence is the glue on defense that tells a player where to go, effort is what tells him when to go.


Maybe you need to get a better understanding of what effort is boss.. Intelligence drives the correct effort. Effort doesn't tell him to do anything.. it's an action. Your brain does the telling, an action follows.. which is what effort is. A response to a command from a thought.
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 6:09 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Defense is definitely not all effort.. You could be a dumb hyper active defender right? Intelligence is just as important.

To answer your question no, effort isn't implicated in getting lost on defense. A lack of mental focus and preparation prior to the actual game is what I attribute it to.


If you don't think effort is implicated in getting lost on D, then you've never been tired in a basketball game. Intelligence is the glue on defense that tells a player where to go, effort is what tells him when to go.


Maybe you need to get a better understanding of what effort is boss.. Intelligence drives the correct effort. Effort doesn't tell him to do anything.. it's an action. Your brain does the telling, an action follows.. which is what effort is. A response to a command from a thought.


Attentiveness is effort when you're in an endurance sport - and then it takes effort after recognizing something to get on your horse at the first instant you can.
That's why players say defense is all effort. It's far from entirely true, but effort is implicated in all aspects of defense including awareness. That's why it's said because it's a factor in all aspects.
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SocalDevin
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 6:12 pm    Post subject:

Attentiveness is a cognitive exercise.
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 6:14 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Defense is definitely not all effort.. You could be a dumb hyper active defender right? Intelligence is just as important.

To answer your question no, effort isn't implicated in getting lost on defense. A lack of mental focus and preparation prior to the actual game is what I attribute it to.


If you don't think effort is implicated in getting lost on D, then you've never been tired in a basketball game. Intelligence is the glue on defense that tells a player where to go, effort is what tells him when to go.


Maybe you need to get a better understanding of what effort is boss.. Intelligence drives the correct effort. Effort doesn't tell him to do anything.. it's an action. Your brain does the telling, an action follows.. which is what effort is. A response to a command from a thought.


Attentiveness is effort when you're in an endurance sport - and then it takes effort after recognizing something to get on your horse at the first instant you can.
That's why players say defense is all effort. It's far from entirely true, but effort is implicated in all aspects of defense including awareness. That's why it's said because it's a factor in all aspects.
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 6:29 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Defense is definitely not all effort.. You could be a dumb hyper active defender right? Intelligence is just as important.

To answer your question no, effort isn't implicated in getting lost on defense. A lack of mental focus and preparation prior to the actual game is what I attribute it to.


If you don't think effort is implicated in getting lost on D, then you've never been tired in a basketball game. Intelligence is the glue on defense that tells a player where to go, effort is what tells him when to go.


Maybe you need to get a better understanding of what effort is boss.. Intelligence drives the correct effort. Effort doesn't tell him to do anything.. it's an action. Your brain does the telling, an action follows.. which is what effort is. A response to a command from a thought.


Attentiveness is effort when you're in an endurance sport - and then it takes effort after recognizing something to get on your horse at the first instant you can.
That's why players say defense is all effort. It's far from entirely true, but effort is implicated in all aspects of defense including awareness. That's why it's said because it's a factor in all aspects.




"Otto Porter puts his brain into autopilot"
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SocalDevin
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 6:32 pm    Post subject:

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 6:50 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Defense is definitely not all effort.. You could be a dumb hyper active defender right? Intelligence is just as important.

To answer your question no, effort isn't implicated in getting lost on defense. A lack of mental focus and preparation prior to the actual game is what I attribute it to.


If you don't think effort is implicated in getting lost on D, then you've never been tired in a basketball game. Intelligence is the glue on defense that tells a player where to go, effort is what tells him when to go.


Maybe you need to get a better understanding of what effort is boss.. Intelligence drives the correct effort. Effort doesn't tell him to do anything.. it's an action. Your brain does the telling, an action follows.. which is what effort is. A response to a command from a thought.


Semantics.

Being engaged mentally or physically takes effort. I’m HOPING his effort is the issue because it’s much easier to improve on than IQ. If effort isn’t the issue his IQ is cause his off ball D is really bad compared to what it should be. That’s an area I’m confident he’ll improve in though just gotta put more effort out to remain mentally focused.

Listen to Draymond, he’s constantly caught yelling at guys who aren’t “locked in” if they miss a rotation. He’s questioning their effort not IQ.
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 6:53 pm    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Defense is definitely not all effort.. You could be a dumb hyper active defender right? Intelligence is just as important.

To answer your question no, effort isn't implicated in getting lost on defense. A lack of mental focus and preparation prior to the actual game is what I attribute it to.


If you don't think effort is implicated in getting lost on D, then you've never been tired in a basketball game. Intelligence is the glue on defense that tells a player where to go, effort is what tells him when to go.


Maybe you need to get a better understanding of what effort is boss.. Intelligence drives the correct effort. Effort doesn't tell him to do anything.. it's an action. Your brain does the telling, an action follows.. which is what effort is. A response to a command from a thought.


Semantics.

Being engaged mentally or physically takes effort. I’m HOPING his effort is the issue because it’s much easier to improve on than IQ. If effort isn’t the issue his IQ is cause his off ball D is really bad compared to what it should be. That’s an area I’m confident he’ll improve in though just gotta put more effort out to remain mentally focused.

Listen to Draymond, he’s constantly caught yelling at guys who aren’t “locked in” if they miss a rotation. He’s questioning their effort not IQ.


Exactly. And that's a term you all players say when talking to their teammates. Attentiveness and effort are interlinked
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 7:08 pm    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Defense is definitely not all effort.. You could be a dumb hyper active defender right? Intelligence is just as important.

To answer your question no, effort isn't implicated in getting lost on defense. A lack of mental focus and preparation prior to the actual game is what I attribute it to.


If you don't think effort is implicated in getting lost on D, then you've never been tired in a basketball game. Intelligence is the glue on defense that tells a player where to go, effort is what tells him when to go.


Maybe you need to get a better understanding of what effort is boss.. Intelligence drives the correct effort. Effort doesn't tell him to do anything.. it's an action. Your brain does the telling, an action follows.. which is what effort is. A response to a command from a thought.


Semantics.

Being engaged mentally or physically takes effort. I’m HOPING his effort is the issue because it’s much easier to improve on than IQ. If effort isn’t the issue his IQ is cause his off ball D is really bad compared to what it should be. That’s an area I’m confident he’ll improve in though just gotta put more effort out to remain mentally focused.

Listen to Draymond, he’s constantly caught yelling at guys who aren’t “locked in” if they miss a rotation. He’s questioning their effort not IQ.


Yup, a good example is the coach. He doesn't play one minute in the game but at the end of the game he's mentally exhausted. That's because of all the mental effort he puts into the game. When he calls a timeout and lays into a player for missing assignments, that's because he's so mentally invested into the game. He sees everything going on. He's dissecting every play.

There's physical effort and there's also mental effort during the game. Intelligence is just a measure of your ability to mentally dissect a game correctly.

For example, take a hard math problem. 2 people trying to solve it. Person A is more intelligent than person B.

Person A solves the problem in 5 minutes. Person B takes 2 hrs to try and solve it but still can't. But person B still exerted alot of mental effort in trying to solve the problem.
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 7:15 pm    Post subject:

It's not a matter of semantics..

"Probably unrealistic to expect a skinny 20yo to be able to compete his ass off on D"

He clearly did compete his ass off, you don't hold your opponents to 3.5 percent below their shooting averages and not be competing.

"But motor&effort are things that pop off the screen , and Ingram def didn't there."

Yet he ranked sixth in contesting 3pt attempts in the league..

"There's a reason why there's some validity to players saying defense is all effort."

It's not all effort, like I said before you can be a hyper active dumb defender. It's about intelligence and mental focus.

"Attentiveness is effort when you're in an endurance sport "

Again, attentiveness is a cognitive exercise.. effort is what corresponds.

"effort is what tells him when to go."

Effort doesn't direct anything, your brain does the directing.

Definitely not a matter of semantics..
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 7:16 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Defense is definitely not all effort.. You could be a dumb hyper active defender right? Intelligence is just as important.

To answer your question no, effort isn't implicated in getting lost on defense. A lack of mental focus and preparation prior to the actual game is what I attribute it to.


If you don't think effort is implicated in getting lost on D, then you've never been tired in a basketball game. Intelligence is the glue on defense that tells a player where to go, effort is what tells him when to go.


Maybe you need to get a better understanding of what effort is boss.. Intelligence drives the correct effort. Effort doesn't tell him to do anything.. it's an action. Your brain does the telling, an action follows.. which is what effort is. A response to a command from a thought.


Attentiveness is effort when you're in an endurance sport - and then it takes effort after recognizing something to get on your horse at the first instant you can.
That's why players say defense is all effort. It's far from entirely true, but effort is implicated in all aspects of defense including awareness. That's why it's said because it's a factor in all aspects.
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 7:18 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Defense is definitely not all effort.. You could be a dumb hyper active defender right? Intelligence is just as important.

To answer your question no, effort isn't implicated in getting lost on defense. A lack of mental focus and preparation prior to the actual game is what I attribute it to.


If you don't think effort is implicated in getting lost on D, then you've never been tired in a basketball game. Intelligence is the glue on defense that tells a player where to go, effort is what tells him when to go.


Maybe you need to get a better understanding of what effort is boss.. Intelligence drives the correct effort. Effort doesn't tell him to do anything.. it's an action. Your brain does the telling, an action follows.. which is what effort is. A response to a command from a thought.


Semantics.

Being engaged mentally or physically takes effort. I’m HOPING his effort is the issue because it’s much easier to improve on than IQ. If effort isn’t the issue his IQ is cause his off ball D is really bad compared to what it should be. That’s an area I’m confident he’ll improve in though just gotta put more effort out to remain mentally focused.

Listen to Draymond, he’s constantly caught yelling at guys who aren’t “locked in” if they miss a rotation. He’s questioning their effort not IQ.


Yup, a good example is the coach. He doesn't play one minute in the game but at the end of the game he's mentally exhausted. That's because of all the mental effort he puts into the game. When he calls a timeout and lays into a player for missing assignments, that's because he's so mentally invested into the game. He sees everything going on. He's dissecting every play.

There's physical effort and there's also mental effort during the game. Intelligence is just a measure of your ability to mentally dissect a game correctly.

For example, take a hard math problem. 2 people trying to solve it. Person A is more intelligent than person B.

Person A solves the problem in 5 minutes. Person B takes 2 hrs to try and solve it but still can't. But person B still exerted alot of mental effort in trying to solve the problem.


Yeup!
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 12:58 am    Post subject:

I'm not sure Grant Hill isn't his ceiling comp.....
Chickybaby on the commentary
A modern Hill who's a 3pt threat

GHill liked the same kind of hesitation dribbles, simple passes but racked up assists. Preferred to drive, some midrange. 6'8
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