Shocking...another school shooting today
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 6:08 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
The problem of violence is not solved by fortifying the last place attacked. That’s maginot line thinking, fighting the last war. Right now schools are a thing because that’s been in the public mindset, but you can just as easily wreak havoc in a culdesac.


Eh. You're just talking around the issue. School shootings are a problem. What is your realistic solution? Don't tell me about the Maginot line or whatever. Tell me what you propose to do that has a realistic chance of happening.

At some point, state legislatures are going to start doing something. That's the nature of politicians. They want to tell their constituents that they are addressing the issues. They are not going to ban firearms, because the public likes guns and because the Second Amendment makes it a non-starter. They are not going to ban assault weapons, and that would not have made a difference in Santa Fe anyway. All of the other stuff in the gun control agenda -- background checks, etc. -- is not applicable.

The one feasible response is arming teachers. They won't arm every teacher, and they will have all sorts of training requirements and the like. But the legislatures will be able to tell the public that they have done something. Who knows? It might work. I don't really support it, but I realize that the alternative -- doing nothing -- is unappealing.

If you don't have a feasible alternative, and you just want to criticize the response (or talk about banning firearms or whatnot), that's fine. But you aren't occupying the higher ground this time.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:14 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
The problem of violence is not solved by fortifying the last place attacked. That’s maginot line thinking, fighting the last war. Right now schools are a thing because that’s been in the public mindset, but you can just as easily wreak havoc in a culdesac.


Eh. You're just talking around the issue. School shootings are a problem. What is your realistic solution? Don't tell me about the Maginot line or whatever. Tell me what you propose to do that has a realistic chance of happening.

At some point, state legislatures are going to start doing something. That's the nature of politicians. They want to tell their constituents that they are addressing the issues. They are not going to ban firearms, because the public likes guns and because the Second Amendment makes it a non-starter. They are not going to ban assault weapons, and that would not have made a difference in Santa Fe anyway. All of the other stuff in the gun control agenda -- background checks, etc. -- is not applicable.

The one feasible response is arming teachers. They won't arm every teacher, and they will have all sorts of training requirements and the like. But the legislatures will be able to tell the public that they have done something. Who knows? It might work. I don't really support it, but I realize that the alternative -- doing nothing -- is unappealing.

If you don't have a feasible alternative, and you just want to criticize the response (or talk about banning firearms or whatnot), that's fine. But you aren't occupying the higher ground this time.


No, the person talking around the problem is yourself. School shootings are not the problem. There are shootings at various venues, so clearly schools aren't the problem, the shooting is. It doesn't take much thought to realize the common denominator in shootings is the guns. The logical extension of that is to address the actual issue . . . the guns themselves.

This whole, "you can't do anything about the guns so let's legislate everything else" is BS. It victimizes the populace in order to pacify a segment of citizens who are too enamored of their weapons, the sole purpose of which is to kill.

To propose that turning public venues into "shooting proof" fortresses is such an ass backward approach to the problem that it isn't even funny.

Address the actual problems, not the occasional locations. That is the blatantly obvious approach - at least to those truly interested in solving the problem rather than dancing around trying to appease those who refuse to be a part of the solution.

That IS the high ground.
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Last edited by DaMuleRules on Sun May 20, 2018 7:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:15 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
No, the person talking around the problem is yourself.


Shoo. The grown ups are talking.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:24 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
No, the person talking around the problem is yourself.


Shoo. The grown ups are talking.


Well . . . that's certainly a very "grown up" response and quite indicative of the lack of maturity (and other things) of the person making it.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 8:52 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
The problem of violence is not solved by fortifying the last place attacked. That’s maginot line thinking, fighting the last war. Right now schools are a thing because that’s been in the public mindset, but you can just as easily wreak havoc in a culdesac.


Eh. You're just talking around the issue. School shootings are a problem. What is your realistic solution? Don't tell me about the Maginot line or whatever. Tell me what you propose to do that has a realistic chance of happening.

At some point, state legislatures are going to start doing something. That's the nature of politicians. They want to tell their constituents that they are addressing the issues. They are not going to ban firearms, because the public likes guns and because the Second Amendment makes it a non-starter. They are not going to ban assault weapons, and that would not have made a difference in Santa Fe anyway. All of the other stuff in the gun control agenda -- background checks, etc. -- is not applicable.

The one feasible response is arming teachers. They won't arm every teacher, and they will have all sorts of training requirements and the like. But the legislatures will be able to tell the public that they have done something. Who knows? It might work. I don't really support it, but I realize that the alternative -- doing nothing -- is unappealing.

If you don't have a feasible alternative, and you just want to criticize the response (or talk about banning firearms or whatnot), that's fine. But you aren't occupying the higher ground this time.


Spoken like someone completely removed from the issue. If you knew even one teacher you might start to understand. Even those who already have weapons training far beyond just about any cop don't want to carry.

And by the way the school had armed security and a plan for a shooting situation.

Shall we check the scoreboard? In supposed first world countries it looks like we are blowing out every other one in school shootings . I'm pretty sure our count in 2018 alone tops the cumulative for the rest in at least the past decade.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 9:24 am    Post subject:

Glossed over is underlined italicized by AH. Instead of attacking him look at all of the post. Emphasize doing nothing
Quote:
Who knows? It might work. I don't really support it, but I realize that the alternative -- doing nothing -- is unappealing.

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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 9:28 am    Post subject:

Hector the Pup wrote:

Shall we check the scoreboard? In supposed first world countries it looks like we are blowing out every other one in school shootings . I'm pretty sure our count in 2018 alone tops the cumulative for the rest in at least the past decade.


As of this shooting, there have been more students and teachers murdered in 2018 than there have been active military members KIA.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 9:30 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Glossed over is underlined italicized by AH. Instead of attacking him . . .


Clearly you haven't been actually reading the thread . . .
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 9:37 am    Post subject:

Sean Hannity: Schools Should Monitor Every Student's Social Media Postings Because "It's Not A Gun Issue" -

Funny how those on the Right always calling for smaller Government and less Government intervention . . . until they want the Government to intervene on their behalf in order to suppress the rights of those they view as restricting their access to their precious guns.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 9:38 am    Post subject:

Hector the Pup wrote:
Spoken like someone completely removed from the issue. If you knew even one teacher you might start to understand. Even those who already have weapons training far beyond just about any cop don't want to carry.

And by the way the school had armed security and a plan for a shooting situation.

Shall we check the scoreboard? In supposed first world countries it looks like we are blowing out every other one in school shootings . I'm pretty sure our count in 2018 alone tops the cumulative for the rest in at least the past decade.


Actually, I know a lot of teachers, but that’s beside the point. The point is that you have no feasible alternative to offer. We are not going to ban firearms, or even restrict firearm ownership to any meaningful degree, so the rhetoric about gun violence in the US is empty. Maybe attitudes toward firearms will change in the coming decades, but we have a problem in the present.

State legislatures are going to take action. What other alternatives are there? If the alternative is to do nothing and complain about the NRA, that won’t have much traction with legislators. I don’t like the idea of arming teachers, but it is coming. It may not happen in California, but this idea will have a lot of appeal in red and purple states.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 9:43 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Glossed over is underlined italicized by AH. Instead of attacking him . . .


Clearly you haven't been actually reading the thread . . .

Maybe not. What have I missed? I'm not defending, asking questions. Something I do as norm. DMR you know I'm not a Internet Warrior. Read my location.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 9:47 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
We are not going to ban firearms, or even restrict firearm ownership to any meaningful degree, so the rhetoric about gun violence in the US is empty.


It's not empty at all. The point is that it is time to change that attitude. That attitude is the core of the problem, not a source of resolution or mitigation.

there was a time when when people thought there'd never be Woman's Suffrage or advances in Civil Rights in this country . . . and attitudes were changed and so did the approach to those issues.

It's called progress. And that's how things improve. Not by accepting the status quo.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 10:01 am    Post subject:

Instead of piss fighting offer solutions. I own a gun, I live alone. I don't carry in public. I suggest strict ownership laws, mental stability tests qualifications, vet reasons to own, etc. The problem seems more social than rights.

Pulling for the Warriors.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 10:14 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Hector the Pup wrote:
Spoken like someone completely removed from the issue. If you knew even one teacher you might start to understand. Even those who already have weapons training far beyond just about any cop don't want to carry.

And by the way the school had armed security and a plan for a shooting situation.

Shall we check the scoreboard? In supposed first world countries it looks like we are blowing out every other one in school shootings . I'm pretty sure our count in 2018 alone tops the cumulative for the rest in at least the past decade.


Actually, I know a lot of teachers, but that’s beside the point. The point is that you have no feasible alternative to offer. We are not going to ban firearms, or even restrict firearm ownership to any meaningful degree, so the rhetoric about gun violence in the US is empty. Maybe attitudes toward firearms will change in the coming decades, but we have a problem in the present.

State legislatures are going to take action. What other alternatives are there? If the alternative is to do nothing and complain about the NRA, that won’t have much traction with legislators. I don’t like the idea of arming teachers, but it is coming. It may not happen in California, but this idea will have a lot of appeal in red and purple states.


Arming teachers is the dumbest idea possible. It's just another example of the completely removed thinking that is only making things worse.

I'm just going to go.out on a limb here but I'll happily take the hit for it. You're an idiot. You are completely clueless when it comes to the role of teachers and double down with a total ignorance of what it takes to prepare someone for even remotely controlled combat. You think that the answer to a problem that is somehow unique to.this country is to somehow combine two extremely challenging jobs? Your view of life is beyond simplistic and ignorant.

If you really do know teachers then ask them how they would feel about walking in to a classroom armed. If they respond positively then you know a bad teacher.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 10:15 am    Post subject:

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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 10:22 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:


WHY? Differences of opinion bring solutions. You've offered solutions continue to voice them and authenticate.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 10:35 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:


WHY? .


Because he’s getting rebuttal to his comments.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 10:36 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Locking seems fair. As does a suspension for you for your unprovoked and unwarranted attack.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 10:41 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:


WHY? .


Because he’s getting rebuttal to his comments.

The full quote WHY? Differences of opinion bring solutions. You've offered solutions continue to voice them and authenticate. gives more credence.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 10:46 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
The problem of violence is not solved by fortifying the last place attacked. That’s maginot line thinking, fighting the last war. Right now schools are a thing because that’s been in the public mindset, but you can just as easily wreak havoc in a culdesac.


Eh. You're just talking around the issue. School shootings are a problem. What is your realistic solution? Don't tell me about the Maginot line or whatever. Tell me what you propose to do that has a realistic chance of happening.

At some point, state legislatures are going to start doing something. That's the nature of politicians. They want to tell their constituents that they are addressing the issues. They are not going to ban firearms, because the public likes guns and because the Second Amendment makes it a non-starter. They are not going to ban assault weapons, and that would not have made a difference in Santa Fe anyway. All of the other stuff in the gun control agenda -- background checks, etc. -- is not applicable.

The one feasible response is arming teachers. They won't arm every teacher, and they will have all sorts of training requirements and the like. But the legislatures will be able to tell the public that they have done something. Who knows? It might work. I don't really support it, but I realize that the alternative -- doing nothing -- is unappealing.

If you don't have a feasible alternative, and you just want to criticize the response (or talk about banning firearms or whatnot), that's fine. But you aren't occupying the higher ground this time.


I think that’s a roundabout way of complimenting my critique in the form of projection. Because again, if you arm and fortify schools, and the shootings move, because they aren’t actually about school, they are about disaffected anger and separation and lonliness and violence, and that doesn’t go away because there is a cop, armed teachers, barricaded entry.

But I will answer your question. The most important thing you can do about guns is end gerrymandered districts. The majority of Americans don’t own guns, and the majority favor doing commmon sense measures, but the gun lobby owns too many districts by fear of their base. Then you start with common sense ownership, and more importantly, carry and storage issues. I know it will drive the privacy nuts crazy (but what doesn’t?), but registration of all guns is key. People don’t tend to murder people as often with guns they are tied to, and registration leads to real carry and educational reform.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 10:56 am    Post subject:

If you hold the owner of a gun responsible for whatever happens with that gun then things will change. There will always be unregistered guns but none of those have been used in the biggest mass killings of even the last 2 years. We don't want your guns but we sure as hell want you to treat them as a weapon built for the sole purpose of killing something or someone.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 10:58 am    Post subject:

AH, let's put aside the debate on whether the entirety of the Nation is ready to accept gun reform.

Do you disagree that a rational response to gun violence is to address it, at least in part, is with reasonable reform to gun legislation?
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 11:00 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:


WHY? Differences of opinion bring solutions. You've offered solutions continue to voice them and authenticate.


Did you read the second paragraph of Hector's post? This discussion has gone too far off the rails.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 11:00 am    Post subject:

Hector the Pup wrote:
[You think that the answer to a problem that is somehow unique to.this country is to somehow combine two extremely challenging jobs? Your view of life is beyond simplistic and ignorant.

If you really do know teachers then ask them how they would feel about walking in to a classroom armed. If they respond positively then you know a bad teacher.


And that doesn't even address the inherent problems that come with turning school life, which already comes with certain stresses to young people as it is, into something even more stressful by turning campuses into armed camps.
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 11:01 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:


WHY? Differences of opinion bring solutions. You've offered solutions continue to voice them and authenticate.


Did you read the second paragraph of Hector's post? This discussion has gone too far off the rails.


The level of irony of you complaining about such a thing is staggering.
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