LBJ/Wilt Comparison When They Joined the Lakers
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dantheman9758
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:27 am    Post subject:

Fortysixn2 wrote:
governator wrote:
Why is Wilt not in the convo for GOAT again, it's always MJ or Kareem only


Because Wilt wasn’t that skilled honestly. He was just a man amongst boys, playing for much of his career in a league that really didn’t have a lot of talent.

Even if I don't change your mind I'd at least like to make sure other people are aware of the kind of talent in Wilt's era:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm1-jzpr_hU

And that's just the 60's. I omitted ranking his early 1970's crop of competition which was not as dense but even more top heavy than the mid 60's group (expansion reduced the HOFer-per-game ratio but top talent increased as many of the same guys from the 60's, plus many more new ones including guys like Kareem and Lanier were now in the league!)

He was an incredible physical specimen and player in a league of incredible physical specimens and great players. Not some wash out league like some (probably younger fans) like to say. What gen Z person knows a thing about Clyde Drexler. They tend to write Jordan off these days because they can't describe how the top 5 guys he played against played - and are lucky to even name them let alone able to describe any middle of the pack or bench warmers from that era. Same issue with Wilt's era. Nobody who criticizes his competition seems to really know his competition as far as I can see. But he did indeed have competition worth the price of admission and it wasn't just Russell.


Last edited by dantheman9758 on Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:32 am; edited 2 times in total
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:28 am    Post subject:

Both Wilt/LBJ were physical freaks who took great care of their bodies, ergo my comparison.

Obviously the stats from Wilt's era don't translate to today's NBA, but the longevity is something I'm interested in seeing.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:48 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
vakobe wrote:
Druggas wrote:
The reason Wilt has dropped from the GOAT discussion is because all the writers from his era are dead. The new media guys, have never seen him play. Not counting ESPN who thinks the NBA started when MJ played.


This is spot on. I saw Kareem's entire career and there's no way anyone will convince me that anyone else was better. But here on the East Coast, Kareem is barely mentioned when the subject of GOAT comes up and Wilt is all but forgotten.
Once those who were teens in the Jordan era get old, someone completely different will be the consensus top choice.



There's probably something to this, but I think other factors are more important.

Wilt only won two rings, and many people thought he was more interested in personal stats than team success, and there is evidence to support that.

His otherworldly stats were a product of his era, and lots of people aren't sure how to compare them against modern times. For example, if you know anything about his 100 point games, you know it was a farce, where his teammates constantly fouled to get more possessions so Wilt could score.

Also, Wilt was pretty lazy, often missing shootarounds, and not getting along with teammates.

He was a great player, and I know his career very well, but I wouldn't put him in the GOAT discussion. Top 10 of all times, yes.

Among studying players up close the whole missing practice/not liking practice thing is a trait I've found exactly, or extremely similar in:

Elgin Baylor - Coaches often turned practices into pick up games or shooting competitions because Elgin hated practice
Bill Russell - Red let him sit out, much to the chagrin of many young Celtic players but they won so nobody cared. Russell hated practice especially as he got older. Would read the newspaper from the bench while his teammates busted their ass. This was happening at least from the mid 60's onwards.
Allen Iverson - Practice?
Rick Barry - not practice specifically but thinks same day shoot around is the dumbest concept in sports

With Wilt, it depended on the season. He enjoyed practice early in his career and never missed it EVEN when living in NYC and playing for Philadelphia. Which his teammates respected. By the late 1960's his knees hurt like hell and his coaches were told to not push him in practice and leave him to his own activities. By the time of the early 1970's he was playing beach volleyball, which, is actually really good for your legs. He'd allegedly show up to practices, sometimes late, covered in sand due to playing. He's in his 30's and had paid his due practicing on hardwood and by then had arthritic knees. Can you blame him? We fans chastise this yet Tim Duncan literally sat out GAMES fans paid tickets to see him play at for the same exact reasons (old veteran resting during events that "don't matter"). Something Wilt never would have done. Which is worse, Duncan or Wilt? I haven't researched Duncan but I'd eat my hat if he didn't sit out many practices as he aged. And that his coach and most teammates understood and put up with it due to the circumstances same as with players like Wilt or Russell.

*EDIT* Sorry one more edit - my point is he was anything BUT lazy. Went to the beat of his own drum but not lazy. One of the most well conditioned people in sports when he played. He owned race horses and he mentions how in addition to his weight lifting regimen he would run through cold deep water and run in sand to keep his legs in as good of condition as possible despite his ailing knees. He worked hard. Maybe not with the team in practice, but he worked hard during the games and after the games with his own routines.


Last edited by dantheman9758 on Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:58 am; edited 2 times in total
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:52 am    Post subject:

Yeah, I think LBJ will take practices easy, and Luke isn't known to be a practice grinder.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:37 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Yeah, I think LBJ will take practices easy, and Luke isn't known to be a practice grinder.


Yup, no Luke buckets and suicide drills this October.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:48 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Why is Wilt not in the convo for GOAT again, it's always MJ or Kareem only


He usually is. Sounds like you're having the convo with the wrong people.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:50 am    Post subject:

Interesting article from the Ringer on this topic.

https://www.theringer.com/2018/7/9/17547692/wilt-chamberlain-lakers-trade-50-year-anniversary-lebron-james
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:14 am    Post subject:

dantheman9758 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
vakobe wrote:
Druggas wrote:
The reason Wilt has dropped from the GOAT discussion is because all the writers from his era are dead. The new media guys, have never seen him play. Not counting ESPN who thinks the NBA started when MJ played.


This is spot on. I saw Kareem's entire career and there's no way anyone will convince me that anyone else was better. But here on the East Coast, Kareem is barely mentioned when the subject of GOAT comes up and Wilt is all but forgotten.
Once those who were teens in the Jordan era get old, someone completely different will be the consensus top choice.



There's probably something to this, but I think other factors are more important.

Wilt only won two rings, and many people thought he was more interested in personal stats than team success, and there is evidence to support that.

His otherworldly stats were a product of his era, and lots of people aren't sure how to compare them against modern times. For example, if you know anything about his 100 point games, you know it was a farce, where his teammates constantly fouled to get more possessions so Wilt could score.

Also, Wilt was pretty lazy, often missing shootarounds, and not getting along with teammates.

He was a great player, and I know his career very well, but I wouldn't put him in the GOAT discussion. Top 10 of all times, yes.

Among studying players up close the whole missing practice/not liking practice thing is a trait I've found exactly, or extremely similar in:

Elgin Baylor - Coaches often turned practices into pick up games or shooting competitions because Elgin hated practice
Bill Russell - Red let him sit out, much to the chagrin of many young Celtic players but they won so nobody cared. Russell hated practice especially as he got older. Would read the newspaper from the bench while his teammates busted their ass. This was happening at least from the mid 60's onwards.
Allen Iverson - Practice?
Rick Barry - not practice specifically but thinks same day shoot around is the dumbest concept in sports

With Wilt, it depended on the season. He enjoyed practice early in his career and never missed it EVEN when living in NYC and playing for Philadelphia. Which his teammates respected. By the late 1960's his knees hurt like hell and his coaches were told to not push him in practice and leave him to his own activities. By the time of the early 1970's he was playing beach volleyball, which, is actually really good for your legs. He'd allegedly show up to practices, sometimes late, covered in sand due to playing. He's in his 30's and had paid his due practicing on hardwood and by then had arthritic knees. Can you blame him? We fans chastise this yet Tim Duncan literally sat out GAMES fans paid tickets to see him play at for the same exact reasons (old veteran resting during events that "don't matter"). Something Wilt never would have done. Which is worse, Duncan or Wilt? I haven't researched Duncan but I'd eat my hat if he didn't sit out many practices as he aged. And that his coach and most teammates understood and put up with it due to the circumstances same as with players like Wilt or Russell.

*EDIT* Sorry one more edit - my point is he was anything BUT lazy. Went to the beat of his own drum but not lazy. One of the most well conditioned people in sports when he played. He owned race horses and he mentions how in addition to his weight lifting regimen he would run through cold deep water and run in sand to keep his legs in as good of condition as possible despite his ailing knees. He worked hard. Maybe not with the team in practice, but he worked hard during the games and after the games with his own routines.


Winning 11 titles in 13 years, I can see Auerbach letting Russell do what he wanted regarding practice.

Rick Barry also hated watching film and had no love for future Lakers coach Bill Sharman when he was coaching San Francisco because he made the team watch film of their upcoming opponents.

Wilt supposedly told Sharman (one of the all-time great basketball minds imo) regarding the shootaround, "I'll show up to the arena once a day...do you want me at the shootaround or the game?" I think the truth on that was in the middle somewhere and they reached a detente and went on to win 33 games in a row, go 69-13 (a record that stood for almost 25 years) and won the NBA title.

To be fair, Iverson, who took a lot of heat at the time, was basically right about "practice". Once a player has been in the league for a while and has some hard miles, practice too often is a bit much. Sharman was ahead of his time with the "shootaround", both in concept and nomenclature.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:23 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I think the GOAT discussion in a few years will be MJ (top). Then you have KAJ/LBJ/Magic/Russell that typically round out that discussion.


Not sure how a 3-6 journeymen ring chaser, can really be put in that same conversation lol.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:35 am    Post subject:

kobeandgary wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think the GOAT discussion in a few years will be MJ (top). Then you have KAJ/LBJ/Magic/Russell that typically round out that discussion.


Not sure how a 3-6 journeymen ring chaser, can really be put in that same conversation lol.


Well. You're going to be disappointed all around it seems. Sad.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:01 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I think the GOAT discussion in a few years will be MJ (top). Then you have KAJ/LBJ/Magic/Russell that typically round out that discussion.


MJ will fade from the top among those discussions in ways resembling what happens to all historically great players:

- their fans die and the media's ranks are replaced by folks without a large period of viewing
- the era itself will become discounted as less relevant in terms of possible greatness with regard to how the game itself has changed since the older player played. Today for example, it's inconceivable that a guard or wing can be judged a modern success who doesn't attempt three point shots - and convert them - with regularity. The impact of Bill Russell's work as a defensive genius in his time gets minimized in this same way, in that he didn't score much.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:15 am    Post subject:

vakobe wrote:
Druggas wrote:
The reason Wilt has dropped from the GOAT discussion is because all the writers from his era are dead. The new media guys, have never seen him play. Not counting ESPN who thinks the NBA started when MJ played.


This is spot on. I saw Kareem's entire career and there's no way anyone will convince me that anyone else was better. But here on the East Coast, Kareem is barely mentioned when the subject of GOAT comes up and Wilt is all but forgotten.
Once those who were teens in the Jordan era get old, someone completely different will be the consensus top choice.


Agreed, it's got a lot to do with the era which one grew up watching, the era and players that first captured one's imagination (hence my screen name for example).

I agree with you, Kareem is still the best I ever saw. He was great for longer than anybody who has ever played the game. 6 NBA championships.

That said, LeBron has a real chance to pass Kareem on the all time scoring list. He's approximately 7,000 points behind The Captain. If LeBron can keep up his current pace, he will need approximately 4 seasons to pass Kareem. To be fair, LeBron came in straight from high school at age 18, so he had a 4-year head start. Kareem was 22 when he played his first NBA game. Nonetheless the numbers are the numbers.

I'll be surprised if LeBron doesn't wind up as the all-time leading scorer. There's no one else active who's even close to the conversation at this point. Dirk Nowitzki is around the same total as LeBron, but Dirk is 40 so that's not going to happen.

Kobe missed 167 games in his last 5 seasons. He finished with 33,643 career points. His career average was 25ppg...if he had stayed healthy, he might have made one helluva run at Kareem, and maybe would have played another year or two. Oh well, just something fun to ponder...
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:51 am    Post subject:

Dr. Funkbot wrote:
I read that he had a 48 inch vert- for a 7 footer, insane.

no way. nobody has a 48" vertical. At least, not the standing vertical. But I even question the running vertical. Anyway, vertical measurements are measured standing anyway. MJ didn't have 48". Probably closer to 40. Wilt is not 48 either, I'd guess between 30-40.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:03 pm    Post subject:

Lebron's health was my one and only concern with him joining the Lakers this year. It makes sense for him to be on a team at this stage with a solid young core like the Lakers have.
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