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Car54
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:43 pm    Post subject:

https://youtu.be/j9-Zvss9pvA

Lebron and Harden duel
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:49 pm    Post subject:

deal wrote:
Who's going to stop high flying dunks by Capela?


This guy https://youtu.be/s6oj-HnuGy8
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:49 pm    Post subject:

GTL wrote:
Is it me, or are assist averages starting to become less impressive than in years past?

I can't recall another era of the NBA where guys like Harden, Westbrook, etc. average 8-10 assists like it's nothing impressive.

I remember the post Jordan guard era with Vince Carter, Iverson, Kobe, and T-Mac where they would average 5-6 assists per game and that was considered impressive.

Players have become better shooters, defenses aren't as locked down, and a player shooting below 45% is considered dismal.

Statistically, scoring 25+ points, grabbing 5-8 boards and averaging 6-8 assists has become commonplace for most all stars.

Does that equate to better talent? Or just an ever changing game that depends more on spread offenses and efficient shooting/scoring?

Would love to hear some opinions on this.

no, you're feelings are correct. players now are very clever with how they get their stats and there's a premeditation to it that was not there before. Also, just consider how much we are valuing guys with "good"stats that dont necessarily deliver like the previous era guys with similar stats. oh...wow, he got a triple double. so what, gimme the guy that flat out scores more. that's why I think people cant recognize someone like lillard is probably the best player in the league, height adjusted. and there are others like him.

forget the numbers, trust what you see lol. if someone looks spectacular, theres a reason. if someone else has a lot of hype but doesnt seem so spectacular in real time, something is probably wrong. like duncan lol. or westbrook lol.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:50 pm    Post subject:

AFireInside619 wrote:
deal wrote:
Who's going to stop high flying dunks by Capela?


Josh Hart. Next question...



Yep, Hart will sky to block Capela...
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:51 pm    Post subject:

deal wrote:
AFireInside619 wrote:
deal wrote:
Who's going to stop high flying dunks by Capela?


Josh Hart. Next question...



Yep, Hart will sky to block Capela...



In Hart We Trust
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:12 pm    Post subject:

24Legend007 wrote:
I don't get it? Everyone is criticizing the Lakers. Houston has lost Ariza and Moute and they are talking about replacing them with Melo and Young. Relationship with Capela going sour?

I think the Lakers are a better team right now then the Rockets as currently constructed.
The Lakers are trending up, we have young bucks like Lonzo, Ingram, Hart and Kuzma who are just going to get better. CP3 has gotten hurt in the playoffs for how many straight years now? Losing Ariza is going to hurt them big time, the guy usually draw the toughest defensive assignment, so who's going to guard the likes of Lebron now, Carmelo ? Nick Young?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:21 pm    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
GTL wrote:
Is it me, or are assist averages starting to become less impressive than in years past?

I can't recall another era of the NBA where guys like Harden, Westbrook, etc. average 8-10 assists like it's nothing impressive.

I remember the post Jordan guard era with Vince Carter, Iverson, Kobe, and T-Mac where they would average 5-6 assists per game and that was considered impressive.

Players have become better shooters, defenses aren't as locked down, and a player shooting below 45% is considered dismal.

Statistically, scoring 25+ points, grabbing 5-8 boards and averaging 6-8 assists has become commonplace for most all stars.

Does that equate to better talent? Or just an ever changing game that depends more on spread offenses and efficient shooting/scoring?

Would love to hear some opinions on this.

no, you're feelings are correct. players now are very clever with how they get their stats and there's a premeditation to it that was not there before. Also, just consider how much we are valuing guys with "good"stats that dont necessarily deliver like the previous era guys with similar stats. oh...wow, he got a triple double. so what, gimme the guy that flat out scores more. that's why I think people cant recognize someone like lillard is probably the best player in the league, height adjusted. and there are others like him.

forget the numbers, trust what you see lol. if someone looks spectacular, theres a reason. if someone else has a lot of hype but doesnt seem so spectacular in real time, something is probably wrong. like duncan lol. or westbrook lol.


This generation of analytics has made it a different game and doesn’t tell the whole story. If Kobe played in today’s league, he would be considered “inefficient”. Granted, there were always people who spread that propaganda throughout his career, it would be mor so pin pointed in today’s hyper obsessed analytical NBA. I remember a time where my eyes were the only analystics I needed, the simplistic box score, and the Larry O’Brian trophy hoisted up in June.

Also it’s a shooters game now right? So that means Pau Gasol of 2008 wouldn’t have nearly the same value today as he did then, unless he was some sort of 3 point wizard (which he tries to be more so of these days). Hell, Clint Capela can’t even get an offer sheet. This guy would have been a top 3 FA in years past. It’s a brave new world.

So you have Kobe, who would be considered “inefficient”, and Pau, whose value would be lesser if he were traded in today’s market. Both of which led us to 3 straight NBA finals an won us 2 championships against what is probably the last great defensive team in the Eastern Conference in the Boston Celtics. We had to go through Western Powerhouses year after year.

Ya, my eyes> analystics.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:32 pm    Post subject:

DocK36 wrote:
24Legend007 wrote:
I don't get it? Everyone is criticizing the Lakers. Houston has lost Ariza and Moute and they are talking about replacing them with Melo and Young. Relationship with Capela going sour?

I think the Lakers are a better team right now then the Rockets as currently constructed.
The Lakers are trending up, we have young bucks like Lonzo, Ingram, Hart and Kuzma who are just going to get better. CP3 has gotten hurt in the playoffs for how many straight years now? Losing Ariza is going to hurt them big time, the guy usually draw the toughest defensive assignment, so who's going to guard the likes of Lebron now, Carmelo ? Nick Young?


They signed Nick young?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:12 pm    Post subject:

Looking forward to this matchup
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:15 am    Post subject:

lakersfever714 wrote:
Houston isn't the team we're trying to beat. Any team not named GSW would probably fall victim to a Lebron-lead team in the playoffs. Just like how it's been for the past eight years.


Or the Spurs or magic I guess lol
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:27 am    Post subject:

chantruong wrote:
CP3 will cancel himself out by the playoffs.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:48 am    Post subject:

Old illegal defense days you had more one on one efficiency so guys like Jordan didn’t have to pass the ball as much because the double was often late the way they had everybody stand outside the 3 point line.

Shaq changed those rules and once that generation of players cleared out it was all about pace, passing and corner 3s once zones became legal. Kobe would have crushed teams under the old rules (it was next gen Jordan) but had to retailor his game to become more of a playmaker by comparison because he couldn’t just have a pippen like point forward to dump it down into him in the post. He needed more points of attack with teams cheating off guys to double him.

It was so apparent too. Lakers beat the pistons if either Wallace has to guard Shaq man up and not be able to spy Kobe with the other. It was just so obvious how much the game had changed. For the better I think but as a laker fan you have to feel gipped of a few titles.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:10 am    Post subject:

Meh, I think CP3 is much better than Rondo so I’d take the Rockets top two. Imagine if it was Lebron with CP3 and Harden with Rondo and you see a massive difference there.

BUT I don’t like this comparison because one of the Rockets biggest strengths is their top two players are superior to the top two players on many of the other teams. I’d definitely take Ingram and Kuzma over the Rockers third and fourth best players.

If Carmelo joins Houston and stinks it up that’s another edge in our favor. And I really like the rest of the Lakers roster much better especially with the Rockets losing people in free agency.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:38 am    Post subject:

GTL wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
GTL wrote:
Is it me, or are assist averages starting to become less impressive than in years past?

I can't recall another era of the NBA where guys like Harden, Westbrook, etc. average 8-10 assists like it's nothing impressive.

I remember the post Jordan guard era with Vince Carter, Iverson, Kobe, and T-Mac where they would average 5-6 assists per game and that was considered impressive.

Players have become better shooters, defenses aren't as locked down, and a player shooting below 45% is considered dismal.

Statistically, scoring 25+ points, grabbing 5-8 boards and averaging 6-8 assists has become commonplace for most all stars.

Does that equate to better talent? Or just an ever changing game that depends more on spread offenses and efficient shooting/scoring?

Would love to hear some opinions on this.

no, you're feelings are correct. players now are very clever with how they get their stats and there's a premeditation to it that was not there before. Also, just consider how much we are valuing guys with "good"stats that dont necessarily deliver like the previous era guys with similar stats. oh...wow, he got a triple double. so what, gimme the guy that flat out scores more. that's why I think people cant recognize someone like lillard is probably the best player in the league, height adjusted. and there are others like him.

forget the numbers, trust what you see lol. if someone looks spectacular, theres a reason. if someone else has a lot of hype but doesnt seem so spectacular in real time, something is probably wrong. like duncan lol. or westbrook lol.


This generation of analytics has made it a different game and doesn’t tell the whole story. If Kobe played in today’s league, he would be considered “inefficient”. Granted, there were always people who spread that propaganda throughout his career, it would be mor so pin pointed in today’s hyper obsessed analytical NBA. I remember a time where my eyes were the only analystics I needed, the simplistic box score, and the Larry O’Brian trophy hoisted up in June.

Also it’s a shooters game now right? So that means Pau Gasol of 2008 wouldn’t have nearly the same value today as he did then, unless he was some sort of 3 point wizard (which he tries to be more so of these days). Hell, Clint Capela can’t even get an offer sheet. This guy would have been a top 3 FA in years past. It’s a brave new world.

So you have Kobe, who would be considered “inefficient”, and Pau, whose value would be lesser if he were traded in today’s market. Both of which led us to 3 straight NBA finals an won us 2 championships against what is probably the last great defensive team in the Eastern Conference in the Boston Celtics. We had to go through Western Powerhouses year after year.

Ya, my eyes> analystics.


Analytics are just a helpful tool to use that help us learn new things about players and teams. Using analytics doesn’t mean you have to throw away the eye test. You can use both.

And Paul was a massive upgrade over Kwame. I’m sure even analytics would tell us that.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:39 am    Post subject:

We are already better than the Rockets.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:00 pm    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
chantruong wrote:
CP3 will cancel himself out by the playoffs.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:48 pm    Post subject:

GTL wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
GTL wrote:
Is it me, or are assist averages starting to become less impressive than in years past?

I can't recall another era of the NBA where guys like Harden, Westbrook, etc. average 8-10 assists like it's nothing impressive.

I remember the post Jordan guard era with Vince Carter, Iverson, Kobe, and T-Mac where they would average 5-6 assists per game and that was considered impressive.

Players have become better shooters, defenses aren't as locked down, and a player shooting below 45% is considered dismal.

Statistically, scoring 25+ points, grabbing 5-8 boards and averaging 6-8 assists has become commonplace for most all stars.

Does that equate to better talent? Or just an ever changing game that depends more on spread offenses and efficient shooting/scoring?

Would love to hear some opinions on this.

no, you're feelings are correct. players now are very clever with how they get their stats and there's a premeditation to it that was not there before. Also, just consider how much we are valuing guys with "good"stats that dont necessarily deliver like the previous era guys with similar stats. oh...wow, he got a triple double. so what, gimme the guy that flat out scores more. that's why I think people cant recognize someone like lillard is probably the best player in the league, height adjusted. and there are others like him.

forget the numbers, trust what you see lol. if someone looks spectacular, theres a reason. if someone else has a lot of hype but doesnt seem so spectacular in real time, something is probably wrong. like duncan lol. or westbrook lol.


This generation of analytics has made it a different game and doesn’t tell the whole story. If Kobe played in today’s league, he would be considered “inefficient”. Granted, there were always people who spread that propaganda throughout his career, it would be mor so pin pointed in today’s hyper obsessed analytical NBA. I remember a time where my eyes were the only analystics I needed, the simplistic box score, and the Larry O’Brian trophy hoisted up in June.

Also it’s a shooters game now right? So that means Pau Gasol of 2008 wouldn’t have nearly the same value today as he did then, unless he was some sort of 3 point wizard (which he tries to be more so of these days). Hell, Clint Capela can’t even get an offer sheet. This guy would have been a top 3 FA in years past. It’s a brave new world.

So you have Kobe, who would be considered “inefficient”, and Pau, whose value would be lesser if he were traded in today’s market. Both of which led us to 3 straight NBA finals an won us 2 championships against what is probably the last great defensive team in the Eastern Conference in the Boston Celtics. We had to go through Western Powerhouses year after year.

Ya, my eyes> analystics.

i hear people talk a lot about the eye test vs stats. and typically, the conclusion is that the eye test is BS and stats tell the truth. WHich is a bunch of nonsense.
THere was a guy here who once made a great post stating why basketball stats dont prove anything, which is true (he was a statistician).
the assists thing is bogus these days, it's manipulated a lot more than it used to be. Barkley talks about this a little, about how the star of the team can get the stats he needs to look good, but it doesn't mean much. Any #1 option can score 20ppg. so stats don't say much.
Now, here we are, with our new acquisitions and the warriors out there. The warriors are clearly far more talented. but more talented at what? scoring. we are very likely the worst scoring team in the league right now. maybe i'm wrong. but the only stat i know to have any value is free throws. that's the same shot for every individual in the league. why does lebron have bad ft% and good 3pt%, or anyone like that? red flag! who is a great 3pt shooter that is not great at ft? doesn't work like that. Lebron is the only all time great in modern history with sub-80 ft%. This is a HUGE problem for me. Magic, MJ, Kobe, Bird, Curry, Durant...anyone of these all time greats are great shooters...except lebron. its a big problem.

let's talk eye test. lbj doesn't look spectacular like kobe and mj because he needs all this help to get the stats he needs. he needs guys like korver and ray allen to get his assists. that's more of a testament to his teammates being all time great 3pt shooters vs him being an all time great passer. Magic and Stockton were not like that. THey were great passers, but they also were 90% ft shooters! This is a big problem! Lebron's passes are not spectacular like Magic or even stockton, or even nash (all great shooters). This is going to be our fatal flaw. we are going to brick ft's and threes and lose the playoff series we are in.

Pelinka keeps talking about not trying to match the warriors offense, and win through defense or something else like playmaking. It's a nice way to say we suck at offense. And winning means outscoring. we'll see how it goes. The ref calls lebron gets will go a long way for us. but that dude has not ever won rings without the worlds greatest 3pt shooters on his team.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:52 pm    Post subject:

AFireInside619 wrote:
deal wrote:
Who's going to stop high flying dunks by Capela?


Josh Hart. Next question...


Who's going to close out on Melo when he's spotting up?

Nobody. Next question...
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:49 pm    Post subject:

GTL wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
GTL wrote:
Is it me, or are assist averages starting to become less impressive than in years past?

I can't recall another era of the NBA where guys like Harden, Westbrook, etc. average 8-10 assists like it's nothing impressive.

I remember the post Jordan guard era with Vince Carter, Iverson, Kobe, and T-Mac where they would average 5-6 assists per game and that was considered impressive.

Players have become better shooters, defenses aren't as locked down, and a player shooting below 45% is considered dismal.

Statistically, scoring 25+ points, grabbing 5-8 boards and averaging 6-8 assists has become commonplace for most all stars.

Does that equate to better talent? Or just an ever changing game that depends more on spread offenses and efficient shooting/scoring?

Would love to hear some opinions on this.

no, you're feelings are correct. players now are very clever with how they get their stats and there's a premeditation to it that was not there before. Also, just consider how much we are valuing guys with "good"stats that dont necessarily deliver like the previous era guys with similar stats. oh...wow, he got a triple double. so what, gimme the guy that flat out scores more. that's why I think people cant recognize someone like lillard is probably the best player in the league, height adjusted. and there are others like him.

forget the numbers, trust what you see lol. if someone looks spectacular, theres a reason. if someone else has a lot of hype but doesnt seem so spectacular in real time, something is probably wrong. like duncan lol. or westbrook lol.


This generation of analytics has made it a different game and doesn’t tell the whole story. If Kobe played in today’s league, he would be considered “inefficient”. Granted, there were always people who spread that propaganda throughout his career, it would be mor so pin pointed in today’s hyper obsessed analytical NBA. I remember a time where my eyes were the only analystics I needed, the simplistic box score, and the Larry O’Brian trophy hoisted up in June.

Also it’s a shooters game now right? So that means Pau Gasol of 2008 wouldn’t have nearly the same value today as he did then, unless he was some sort of 3 point wizard (which he tries to be more so of these days). Hell, Clint Capela can’t even get an offer sheet. This guy would have been a top 3 FA in years past. It’s a brave new world.

So you have Kobe, who would be considered “inefficient”, and Pau, whose value would be lesser if he were traded in today’s market. Both of which led us to 3 straight NBA finals an won us 2 championships against what is probably the last great defensive team in the Eastern Conference in the Boston Celtics. We had to go through Western Powerhouses year after year.

Ya, my eyes> analystics.


I think if Kobe played today, his approach would be different. His game would have been likely been a bit less midrange oriented. Most of Kobe's prime was played with the advent of zone defenses but before analytics and pace and space offenses took off. Kobe looks less efficient than players today because they're playing under different conditions. Put an 18-year-old Kobe into these conditions and I think he's lighting up the league similarly to what he did in his actual career path. Because for all the talk about him being "inefficient," his TS%, for example, was always ahead higher than the league average. And that was with much higher usage rates than the average player.

As for a young Pau, I think he'd be even better today because he'd be one of the ideal centers in the league with his combination of size, length, quickness, passing and shooting ability. And his weakness in the last decade (softness) wouldn't be as much of an issue.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:51 pm    Post subject:

Steve007 wrote:
GTL wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
GTL wrote:
Is it me, or are assist averages starting to become less impressive than in years past?

I can't recall another era of the NBA where guys like Harden, Westbrook, etc. average 8-10 assists like it's nothing impressive.

I remember the post Jordan guard era with Vince Carter, Iverson, Kobe, and T-Mac where they would average 5-6 assists per game and that was considered impressive.

Players have become better shooters, defenses aren't as locked down, and a player shooting below 45% is considered dismal.

Statistically, scoring 25+ points, grabbing 5-8 boards and averaging 6-8 assists has become commonplace for most all stars.

Does that equate to better talent? Or just an ever changing game that depends more on spread offenses and efficient shooting/scoring?

Would love to hear some opinions on this.

no, you're feelings are correct. players now are very clever with how they get their stats and there's a premeditation to it that was not there before. Also, just consider how much we are valuing guys with "good"stats that dont necessarily deliver like the previous era guys with similar stats. oh...wow, he got a triple double. so what, gimme the guy that flat out scores more. that's why I think people cant recognize someone like lillard is probably the best player in the league, height adjusted. and there are others like him.

forget the numbers, trust what you see lol. if someone looks spectacular, theres a reason. if someone else has a lot of hype but doesnt seem so spectacular in real time, something is probably wrong. like duncan lol. or westbrook lol.


This generation of analytics has made it a different game and doesn’t tell the whole story. If Kobe played in today’s league, he would be considered “inefficient”. Granted, there were always people who spread that propaganda throughout his career, it would be mor so pin pointed in today’s hyper obsessed analytical NBA. I remember a time where my eyes were the only analystics I needed, the simplistic box score, and the Larry O’Brian trophy hoisted up in June.

Also it’s a shooters game now right? So that means Pau Gasol of 2008 wouldn’t have nearly the same value today as he did then, unless he was some sort of 3 point wizard (which he tries to be more so of these days). Hell, Clint Capela can’t even get an offer sheet. This guy would have been a top 3 FA in years past. It’s a brave new world.

So you have Kobe, who would be considered “inefficient”, and Pau, whose value would be lesser if he were traded in today’s market. Both of which led us to 3 straight NBA finals an won us 2 championships against what is probably the last great defensive team in the Eastern Conference in the Boston Celtics. We had to go through Western Powerhouses year after year.

Ya, my eyes> analystics.


Analytics are just a helpful tool to use that help us learn new things about players and teams. Using analytics doesn’t mean you have to throw away the eye test. You can use both.

And Paul was a massive upgrade over Kwame. I’m sure even analytics would tell us that.


Agreed. I think analytics are a valuable tool, not a be all, end all method to evaluate players. Analytics helps contextualize the eye test, and the eye test helps contextualize analytics.
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