OFFICIAL LONZO BALL THREAD
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adkindo
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:58 am    Post subject:

oldlakerfan wrote:
Important not to over react to what we see early in season.


yeah right....within 10 minutes after the Portland game, the internet will decide if we are going to be champions or a lottery team.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:59 am    Post subject:

1ngr4m wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Practice wrote:
Quote:
Ralph Mason
‏@Ralph_MasonJr
4h4 hours ago
More
Rondo on Lakers/Lonzo: “Whatever they ask me, you know, my main objective is to win, I'm ready to help develop Lonzo as much as possible. If I'm not starting and he's starting, he's going to be ready to go and ready for anybody that comes his way & we'll be ready to roll”

It's funny how people/the media keep trying to play them against each other.


They are competing for the starting PG spot.


They're not. Lonzo is starting if he's healthy, period.
I think this is what some fans are missing because we have been losing for a few years lately. So all the newer fans and some older fans know is to follow other losing teams formulas. which is play the youth a lot until they get better.

You have to remember the old laker way of doing things still works if you want a dynasty(multiple championships.) and thats to make guys earn their spot.

You are not gifted your starting spot by us not signing solid comp at your position. You have to play so well where your spot is your spot and only your spot barring injury. This is the only way that the player and his team will ever know if he's THAT GOOD. This is what kobe was talking about when things came up about dwight and how kobe should've just fell back and let him take the reigns. no. it doesnt work that way. YOU SNATCH THEM out of his hands so there is no doubt in kobe's mind who's the big man on campus, and there is no doubt in the coaches mind who's the big man on campus. people talk about how david robison allowed timmy D to do that. not true. DR was not himself by the time. He was 70% of himself due to injury so it was much easier for him to fade into the back drop and let timmy do his thing. In addition, as legendary as the admiral was. He was never on the level of a kobe, jordan, bron, shaq, or even timmy d. So again, when the better player comes around he will supplant you.

This is why magic said what he said. Sure ball is a baller at the pg spot. but if Rondo actually takes his spot it means he's not ready yet to lead this laker team into a championship run. It's that simple. the only way you will know he's ready for sure is if he snatches his spot and makes it clear, there isnt a single player on this team that can run this spot better than I can. You dont need to over play young guys for them to prove that. Ask Kobe who sat behind eddie jones. he STOLE eddie's spot. Let me get that Eddie. and Eddie as good as he was, couldnt do ish... about it. This is how you create clutch legends that wont break or bend during the pressures of a championship run.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:03 am    Post subject:

kawhileonard wrote:
Realistically, if Lebron plays the way he has his whole career.

Josh Hart + KCP would make the most sense at the guard positions.
we're not going to win playing bron ball with him being super ball dominant. he's going to have to get off the ball a lot more than he ever has to preserve his legs and to help the team become more versatile. this team unlike the cavs actually has a lot of capable floor generals. so his floor generalship is not needed nearly as much as it has been in a cavs uniform. even when he was with the heat. dwade was the only other true floor general. this team has multiple guys that are capable. and no chalmers could not run a team.
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Jenn
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:16 pm    Post subject: What work can Lonzo do at this point?

I don't know anything about this surgery. Can he at this point work on free throws? Can he do upper body weight work (bench work, machines, etc)?
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1ngr4m
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:26 pm    Post subject:

Probably could have just asked in his thread, it's pretty active anyways lol
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:49 pm    Post subject:

Free throws
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Judah
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:51 pm    Post subject:

oldlakerfan wrote:
I think it will be a battle and Luke will play whoever plays best.

Both will pay a lot and may together.

Rondo is going to help with Lonzo development which is a great thing.

Lonzo may be a little slow coming back from surgery.

We are in a win this year mode so that may dictate who starts.

It will take a month or 2 for Luke to figure out the starters rotation.

Lonzo needs to prove he is healthy and limiting his minutes may keep him healthy for the whole season and get him ready for the playoffs.

Important not to over react to what we see early in season.

I don't see how they can play together (especially if LeBron is on the floor at the time) since neither can shoot from range.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:31 pm    Post subject:

have him watch nonstop game footage of Steve Nash on offense... All the tricks he did to collapse a defense, get into the paint and find dump offs for easy finishes or kick outs to open shooters... all the while never being a threat to finish at the hole.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:33 pm    Post subject:

Bench press. Watch film.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:53 pm    Post subject:

audioaxes wrote:
have him watch nonstop game footage of Steve Nash on offense... All the tricks he did to collapse a defense, get into the paint and find dump offs for easy finishes or kick outs to open shooters... all the while never being a threat to finish at the hole.

Huh? You have it backwards. Nash was unquestionably a threat around the rim. He was as crafty as they come. That was a key component to his game and was exactly why he was able to collapse defenses, probe, and dish to teammates when he was in the paint. However, he was also one of the greatest free throw shooters of all time, so he wasn't afraid of getting fouled. That's part of Lonzo’s dilemma. He goes to the rim looking to pass because he doesn't want to get fouled. His lack of confidence in his free throw shooting holds him back from going up strong around the rim. People talk about how bad he is at finishing, but one of the biggest reasons is because he just sort of flings up wild shots to avoid contact and getting fouled.
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unleasHell
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:35 pm    Post subject:

He can paint the baby's room, maybe write a few Rap songs, or even console his brothers...
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:21 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
mirak wrote:
PauPau wrote:
kikanga wrote:
If Lonzo is good enough to beat out Rondo for the starting spot. We're sitting pretty. I hope it's a problem we have.


Not a particularly high bar if we're being honest but a much higher one than Tyler or Caruso I submit


People are really underrating playoff Rondo.That guy is a beast. He's one of those guys, like Sam Cassell, who steps it up under the spotlight (and has been doing so since he was a 20-something kid).


No, we are correctly rating regular season Rondo. He just isn't good. Rookie Lonzo Ball was better than regular season Rondo last year, even with all of Ball's shooting problems. Regular season Rondo sucked on both sides of the ball.

Then, in 9 playoff games, Rondo sucked on only one side of the ball. He actually played some defense for a few games, but he still sucked on offense. That's great, but we need to make the playoffs before we find out whether regular season Rondo transforms into playoff Rondo.


Playoff Rondo 2017: 10pts 12ast 8rbs 1.5stl on 41% and 42% from 3

In over 100 playoff games: 14pts 9ast 6rbs 2stl on 44%

Also regular season Rondo is good. Ball had a nice rookie season but no reason to sell Rondo short because you want Ball to start.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:28 am    Post subject:

Write apology letters to all those he billed hundreds of dollars to have something signed by him last year.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:13 am    Post subject:

Lucky_Shot wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
mirak wrote:
PauPau wrote:
kikanga wrote:
If Lonzo is good enough to beat out Rondo for the starting spot. We're sitting pretty. I hope it's a problem we have.


Not a particularly high bar if we're being honest but a much higher one than Tyler or Caruso I submit


People are really underrating playoff Rondo.That guy is a beast. He's one of those guys, like Sam Cassell, who steps it up under the spotlight (and has been doing so since he was a 20-something kid).


No, we are correctly rating regular season Rondo. He just isn't good. Rookie Lonzo Ball was better than regular season Rondo last year, even with all of Ball's shooting problems. Regular season Rondo sucked on both sides of the ball.

Then, in 9 playoff games, Rondo sucked on only one side of the ball. He actually played some defense for a few games, but he still sucked on offense. That's great, but we need to make the playoffs before we find out whether regular season Rondo transforms into playoff Rondo.


Playoff Rondo 2017: 10pts 12ast 8rbs 1.5stl on 41% and 42% from 3

In over 100 playoff games: 14pts 9ast 6rbs 2stl on 44%

Also regular season Rondo is good. Ball had a nice rookie season but no reason to sell Rondo short because you want Ball to start.


Nice line.
Thats got to be more assists than almost anyone during that span. Maybe CP3 but cant imagine he has anywhere near that many games.

Not crazy to think that Rondo and Beasely together win us and extra 3-5 games during season
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:31 am    Post subject:

Who starts really does not matter. Who finishes is the important question. Luke is a smart coach and has a plethora of assets available to him. He will go with the hot hand and our closing lineups will change each game.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:39 am    Post subject:

babysitting seems to come to mind...
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:55 am    Post subject:

Judah wrote:
audioaxes wrote:
have him watch nonstop game footage of Steve Nash on offense... All the tricks he did to collapse a defense, get into the paint and find dump offs for easy finishes or kick outs to open shooters... all the while never being a threat to finish at the hole.

Huh? You have it backwards. Nash was unquestionably a threat around the rim. He was as crafty as they come. That was a key component to his game and was exactly why he was able to collapse defenses, probe, and dish to teammates when he was in the paint. However, he was also one of the greatest free throw shooters of all time, so he wasn't afraid of getting fouled. That's part of Lonzo’s dilemma. He goes to the rim looking to pass because he doesn't want to get fouled. His lack of confidence in his free throw shooting holds him back from going up strong around the rim. People talk about how bad he is at finishing, but one of the biggest reasons is because he just sort of flings up wild shots to avoid contact and getting fouled.


Exactly. And Nash was a ball dominant playmaker. All the offense went through him. Lonzo, at his best, is the opposite. He's the kind of guy who generates offense with few and quick touches.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:51 am    Post subject:

Judah wrote:
audioaxes wrote:
have him watch nonstop game footage of Steve Nash on offense... All the tricks he did to collapse a defense, get into the paint and find dump offs for easy finishes or kick outs to open shooters... all the while never being a threat to finish at the hole.

Huh? You have it backwards. Nash was unquestionably a threat around the rim. He was as crafty as they come. That was a key component to his game and was exactly why he was able to collapse defenses, probe, and dish to teammates when he was in the paint. However, he was also one of the greatest free throw shooters of all time, so he wasn't afraid of getting fouled. That's part of Lonzo’s dilemma. He goes to the rim looking to pass because he doesn't want to get fouled. His lack of confidence in his free throw shooting holds him back from going up strong around the rim. People talk about how bad he is at finishing, but one of the biggest reasons is because he just sort of flings up wild shots to avoid contact and getting fouled.


This is my observation exactly.
And one that will certainly improve as his career unfolds.
Improved Free Throw shooting from Ball this season could EASILY increase his points 3-5 a game even without an increase in shots. Or a marked improvement in 3 pt%

I just don't know if i see Lonzo as the first or 2nd ball handler on this team w LBJ and Rondo
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:23 am    Post subject:

Lucky_Shot wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
No, we are correctly rating regular season Rondo. He just isn't good. Rookie Lonzo Ball was better than regular season Rondo last year, even with all of Ball's shooting problems. Regular season Rondo sucked on both sides of the ball.

Then, in 9 playoff games, Rondo sucked on only one side of the ball. He actually played some defense for a few games, but he still sucked on offense. That's great, but we need to make the playoffs before we find out whether regular season Rondo transforms into playoff Rondo.


Playoff Rondo 2017: 10pts 12ast 8rbs 1.5stl on 41% and 42% from 3

In over 100 playoff games: 14pts 9ast 6rbs 2stl on 44%

Also regular season Rondo is good. Ball had a nice rookie season but no reason to sell Rondo short because you want Ball to start.


"Playoff Rondo" posted an OBPM of -1.2 in 2018 (you said 2017, but those are the 2018 stats). Defensive rebounds and steals don't make you a better offensive player, and a 42% three point shooting percentage doesn't do much if you only take a total of 19 threes in 9 games. The bottom line is that the Pelicans were a worse offensive team with Rondo on the floor. His OBPM was lower in the playoffs than the regular season, but it's a small sample size. In Rondo's heyday with the Celtics, he was actually a positive offensive player. That was a long time ago.

I'm not selling Rondo short. I'm telling it like it is. Rondo has not been a good player for a long time. Folks like you are remembering what he was once upon a time. Well, he turns 32 this year, and we will be his sixth different team since the end of the 2014 season. Maybe he will magically revert to what he once was. Not likely.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:06 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Lucky_Shot wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
No, we are correctly rating regular season Rondo. He just isn't good. Rookie Lonzo Ball was better than regular season Rondo last year, even with all of Ball's shooting problems. Regular season Rondo sucked on both sides of the ball.

Then, in 9 playoff games, Rondo sucked on only one side of the ball. He actually played some defense for a few games, but he still sucked on offense. That's great, but we need to make the playoffs before we find out whether regular season Rondo transforms into playoff Rondo.


Playoff Rondo 2017: 10pts 12ast 8rbs 1.5stl on 41% and 42% from 3

In over 100 playoff games: 14pts 9ast 6rbs 2stl on 44%

Also regular season Rondo is good. Ball had a nice rookie season but no reason to sell Rondo short because you want Ball to start.


"Playoff Rondo" posted an OBPM of -1.2 in 2018 (you said 2017, but those are the 2018 stats). Defensive rebounds and steals don't make you a better offensive player, and a 42% three point shooting percentage doesn't do much if you only take a total of 19 threes in 9 games. The bottom line is that the Pelicans were a worse offensive team with Rondo on the floor. His OBPM was lower in the playoffs than the regular season, but it's a small sample size. In Rondo's heyday with the Celtics, he was actually a positive offensive player. That was a long time ago.

I'm not selling Rondo short. I'm telling it like it is. Rondo has not been a good player for a long time. Folks like you are remembering what he was once upon a time. Well, he turns 32 this year, and we will be his sixth different team since the end of the 2014 season. Maybe he will magically revert to what he once was. Not likely.


I’m far from a huge rondo fan, but offensive box plus minus is a predictor of rapm using overall box statistics iirc and rondos playoff rapm was positive on both ends.

Playoff rondo is seems like a thing in defense

Offense is kind of hard to say because the thing is, the warriors exploited not only how it was relatively safe to double off of rondo but also Davis is really really bad at handling double teams. I don’t think that they could double off of rondo if they had to double someone like lebron

His main problem is he passes too many open shots and good shots and gets to assist happy on offense. We’ll see how that plays out but off the court impact should help it out a bit.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:15 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Lucky_Shot wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
No, we are correctly rating regular season Rondo. He just isn't good. Rookie Lonzo Ball was better than regular season Rondo last year, even with all of Ball's shooting problems. Regular season Rondo sucked on both sides of the ball.

Then, in 9 playoff games, Rondo sucked on only one side of the ball. He actually played some defense for a few games, but he still sucked on offense. That's great, but we need to make the playoffs before we find out whether regular season Rondo transforms into playoff Rondo.


Playoff Rondo 2017: 10pts 12ast 8rbs 1.5stl on 41% and 42% from 3

In over 100 playoff games: 14pts 9ast 6rbs 2stl on 44%

Also regular season Rondo is good. Ball had a nice rookie season but no reason to sell Rondo short because you want Ball to start.


"Playoff Rondo" posted an OBPM of -1.2 in 2018 (you said 2017, but those are the 2018 stats). Defensive rebounds and steals don't make you a better offensive player, and a 42% three point shooting percentage doesn't do much if you only take a total of 19 threes in 9 games. The bottom line is that the Pelicans were a worse offensive team with Rondo on the floor. His OBPM was lower in the playoffs than the regular season, but it's a small sample size. In Rondo's heyday with the Celtics, he was actually a positive offensive player. That was a long time ago.

I'm not selling Rondo short. I'm telling it like it is. Rondo has not been a good player for a long time. Folks like you are remembering what he was once upon a time. Well, he turns 32 this year, and we will be his sixth different team since the end of the 2014 season. Maybe he will magically revert to what he once was. Not likely.


I don't have an answer to how the Lakers lineup will play out. But I can't help but wonder what the best lineup will be down the line;
- LeBron with Zo/Rondo or
- actually let LeBron Play-make (as he'll probably do anyway), then throw Hart in there to D up the opposing PG along with his improved 3 PT%.
- while Zo has better D than Rondo none can pull the offense toward them, because it's well know they suck as shooters, something Hart brings to the table.
- and will it come down to letting LBJ play make as he usually does? LeBron
doesn't need a PG to spot him up, he usually has the rock and makes that call himself.
Interesting season.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:28 am    Post subject:

myunibrodavis wrote:
I’m far from a huge rondo fan, but offensive box plus minus is a predictor of rapm using overall box statistics iirc and rondos playoff rapm was positive on both ends.

Playoff rondo is seems like a thing in defense

Offense is kind of hard to say because the thing is, the warriors exploited not only how it was relatively safe to double off of rondo but also Davis is really really bad at handling double teams. I don’t think that they could double off of rondo if they had to double someone like lebron

His main problem is he passes too many open shots and good shots and gets to assist happy on offense. We’ll see how that plays out but off the court impact should help it out a bit.


You can't reliably calculate RAPM/RPM based on a nine game sample, which is why I skipped it. It requires about a 20 game sample, if I recall correctly.

Rondo illustrates the problem with assists from a big picture perspective. Assists are not bad things, but they aren't always as productive as people think. If you pass the ball to a teammate for a tough three or a contested two, and your teammate makes the shot, you may get credit for an assist. But how much have you really added? People think of assists in the sense of Magic Johnson making some spectacular pass that leads to an uncontested layup, but relatively few assists meet that description. Nonetheless, that mental image causes fans to overvalue assists. I can remember when people used to say "Kobe would have had 20 assists if his teammates just made their shots!" That's the point.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:33 am    Post subject:

Not crazy to think that Rondo and Beasely together win us and extra 3-5 games during season[/quote]


Not crazy at all!
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:35 am    Post subject:

I am not seeing a reason to overly critical of the Rondo role or PG lineups.

Ball is going to learn from Rondo. Rondo is going to benefit from splitting mpg.

Lakers have a potent PG rotation with both. Especially if one misses games. Only potential downside is ego issues throughout the season. Avoid that and how is this a bad thing in any way?

Lakers now have two above average floor generals that get other players easier shots, play defense and have high bball IQs.

I have never been much of a Rondo fan. I still love this signing for the Lakers and Ball's development.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:37 am    Post subject:

I don't have an answer to how the Lakers lineup will play out. But I can't help but wonder what the best lineup will be down the line;
- LeBron with Zo/Rondo or
- actually let LeBron Play-make (as he'll probably do anyway), then throw Hart in there to D up the opposing PG along with his improved 3 PT%.
- while Zo has better D than Rondo none can pull the offense toward them, because it's well know they suck as shooters, something Hart brings to the table.
- and will it come down to letting LBJ play make as he usually does? LeBron
doesn't need a PG to spot him up, he usually has the rock and makes that call himself.
Interesting season.[/quote]

Last two minutes of a close game, we might see some patchwork lineups, especially on offense:

Lebron and Hart possibly as the guards
Ingram, Kuzma, or maybe SVI is tried out as a shooter
Beasley might be the best shooting center

And then switchouts like McGee or Lance on defense.
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