I don’t get all the negative talk surrounding Lebron. We got the best frickin player in the league and there is more negative talk than positive. I guess it was better for some when the franchise as a whole was in the dumps.
Let the season start, let’s go on multiple game (hopefully double digit) winning streaks and these fools will be back at the door of the bus begging to get on.
Magic would go on to nine NBA Finals appearances, and while winning 5 rings in the process, Bird won 3. By winning their head to head duals - on the court - Magic laid legitimate claim to being regarded as the best in the sport. However, it wasn’t long before Michael Jordan, despite having no rivalry equivalent to Johnson/Bird (or vice versa), would go on to 6 NBA Finals appearances. Though he would win all 6, it was 3 appearances fewer than Johnson, and many observers have noted that due to league expansion, the league’s concentration of talent was diluted during Jordan’s runs.
It didn’t seem to matter in the slightest. Johnson was in his final year before retirement when his Lakers met Jordan’s Bulls in the Finals in 1991. Well past the Showtime era, the team was constituted mostly of leftovers at that point, missing former team captain Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 1987 defensive player of the year Michael Cooper, and perhaps most significantly, Head Coach Pat Riley, the architect of the Lakers 1980's dynastic run. That Jordan’s Bulls were competing against an overachieving Lakers squad didn’t ever enter the narrative, and even though the Lakers were, in 1991, a far cry from the championship teams of the 80's, the matchup was still sold as a “passing of the torch” between Johnson and Jordan.
You have a bias towards Laker players that is relatively obvious. Speaking of "laying the groundwork" for something, you laid the groundwork in the above portion of your article for exposing your own bias against LeBron. Notice how easy it was for you to contextualize that Finals loss for Magic by noting that the Lakers obviously weren't the same team by 1991, yet you don't contextualize any of LeBron's Finals losses later on in the article, as I'll demonstrate later.
Quote:
The Laker fan push back to accepting LeBron has a lot to do with the mainstream media force-feeding the idea that LeBron is unarguably "the best player on the planet" and is exacerbated when talking about his place among the all time greats, in recent years suddenly (and inexorably) in the discussion of perhaps being THE "greatest player of all time."
The mainstream media is not "force-feeding" LeBron's stake as the best player in the world. LeBron has been the consensus best player in the world for years, even prior to Kobe's retirement. That hasn't been force-fed by the media any more than it was force-fed that Jordan was the best player in the 90's. You're free to disagree on who the best player is or isn't, but please don't make a conspiracy out of it. LeBron has earned his current status. It's not some media fabrication.
Also, there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that LeBron is one of the greatest players of all time, even though he's still playing. Did you not believe Magic was already an all-time great by 1991, or did you suddenly become convinced of that once he retired? Of course you didn't. That's going to be the case for every basketball legend. You don't suddenly realize they were great after they retire. Yes, LeBron is an all-time great. This is not disputable.
Quote:
All of this, despite having a 3-6 record in the Finals and having played his entire career in what has categorically been the weaker conference in the NBA. It is not - as many media pundits have claimed - stemming from an idea that Laker fans, Kobe fans, or a combination of both believe or feel that Kobe's legacy will be "threatened" by LeBron.
A 3-6 Finals record, you say? This is indeed factual, but tell me, Aaron, who was the second best player on that Cavs team in 2007? And whoever that player was, what were his averages that season? I'm openly challenging you to answer both of those questions. You have to be either intellectually dishonest, deceitful, or just plain ignorant to not acknowledge that that team had no business in the Finals. It was LeBron's brilliance that got them there. They lost because they were clearly outmatched by a loaded San Antonio Spurs team with multiple All-Stars. Why don't you contextualize that Finals loss for LeBron the way you did for Magic in 1991?
And while you're at it, please, I'm inviting you to also explain why you didn't bother to contextualize LeBron's Finals loss to GS in 2015. You know, when he lost both Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving to injury while GS was fully healthy? Why does it seem so easy for you to contextualize losses for guys who were Lakers, but not LeBron? Hmm...
Quote:
It's that once again, and in consecutive eras, the career of a Laker great who has done more to earn the mantle is being undermined by a player who has had - to this point - a career of lesser basketball accomplishment and distinction, by the most genuine of measurements.
I'm not sure what you were seeking to accomplish by writing this article, but saying stuff like this makes it very, very difficult to take your arguments seriously. These are LeBron's most notable accomplishments as of today:
3× NBA champion (2012, 2013, 2016)
3× NBA Finals MVP (2012, 2013, 2016)
4× NBA Most Valuable Player (2009, 2010, 2012, 2013)
14× NBA All-Star (2005–2018)
3× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2006, 2008, 2018)
12× All-NBA First Team (2006, 2008–2018)
5× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2009–2013)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2004)
NBA scoring champion (2008)
2 x Olympic Gold Medalist (2008, 2012)
Unless injuries completely derail the remainder of his career, he'll eventually pass Kobe in points to move up to third all-time, and probably top five in assists as well. And yet, somehow, he's had "a career of lesser basketball accomplishment and distinction, by the most genuine of measurements" when compared to Kobe? Seriously? You're simply refusing to be rational, Aaron. Careful reasoning and balance are absent in your argumentative framework. You're being biased, not fair.
Quote:
Kobe, on the other hand, just in his own conference, had to first overcome a 15-point 4th quarter deficit in a Western Conference Finals Game 7 against a a loaded Portland team, the Duncan/Popovich Spurs dynasty repeatedly (both early and later in his career), as well as a offensively dominant Sacramento Kings squad. To be sure, Kobe prevented all of these teams from winning championships. The winner of the West was assuredly winning the title in almost all of those years. It is with must less certainty, that James can claim the same about the eastern conference victims that he ran through for the better part of the last decade.
Oh, goody; more subpar argumentation that's been soaked in Laker bias. Who ever could've seen this coming?!
Aaron, LeBron lead the Cavs back from a 3-2 deficit against the Spurs in the Finals (the same dynastic one you just exalted to enhance your pro-Kobe arguments) and a 3-1 deficit (which no team had ever done before) against the Warriors, who had won 73 games that year. Yes, Kobe and the Lakers did prevent several teams from winning championships, but so did LeBron and the teams he played on.
The Heat defeated the Pierce/Garnett/Allen led Celtics several times when LeBron was in Miami, as well as the Pacers and the Bulls. All three of those teams were defensive powerhouses at the time. And then when he returned to Cleveland, he crushed the hopes of teams like the Bulls (again), the Hawks, and the Raptors more than once. If it wasn't for LeBron, Dwayne Casey and DeMar DeRozan would still be in Toronto because they probably would've had at least two Finals appearances. The same could also be said of Boston and Indiana. You can argue all you want that the East is a weak conference, but those teams were elite. The weakness of the conference overall doesn't take anything away from how good those particular teams were. But they won't be remembered because LeBron continually blocked their path to championships, just as many great players did to other great teams in their respective eras, teams that also aren't remembered.
Quote:
Conference convenience aside, Bryant also made his mark on the team and the city by sticking with Los Angeles and the Lakers through difficult times. After a championship appearance drought following 2004 ended in 2008, Kobe and the Lakers won back to back championships, the second of which (and fifth title of Bryant's career) coming against the hated Boston Celtics and their Big 3 Hall of Famers. Those same Celtics were responsible for eliminating James from title contention on a near annual basis until Boston broke the team up.
That Celtic team didn't eliminate the Cavs on a "near annual basis." It happened twice (2008, 2010) and it's indisputable that the teams he played on were mediocre from a talent standpoint. There wasn't a single All-Star on either of those teams besides LeBron. The talent he played with in Miami was a lot more comparable to Boston's, and we know what happened then. The Celtics never beat the Heat once.
Quote:
Laker fans are not as easily swayed by statistics (which, without context, lose impact) or regular season success.
Hmm, I wonder why. Is it because they know that LeBron easily beats Kobe in those areas (higher scoring, rebound, and assist averages + more MVP awards)? Please don't pretend that if Kobe and LeBron switched career averages, you wouldn't be using Kobe's superior statistical averages as a baseball bat in every Kobe-LeBron debate.
Quote:
The more frequently that this idea is trumpeted - that the James/Bryant debate is "over", in favor of James - the greater the pushback (and lack of any LeBron embrace) will be from Laker fans.
This is just illogical. You aren't embracing LeBron because the media has declared that he's better than Kobe? That's...incredible. You're holding back on embracing him because of something that's completely out of his control. That is absurd.
Quote:
James calling himself the best player in the world doesn't help in this regard, and with LeBron now donning a Laker jersey, the debates and comparisons surrounding the two is renewed in a different light.
You completely lost me here. In what regard? What relationship does LeBron calling himself the best player in the league have with the Kobe debate?
Quote:
To many Laker fans, James' past success (and to perhaps a lesser extent, his failures) are irrelevant to embracing him now. What matters is what he does as a Laker. To be sure, the respect that he gets from these fans will have to be earned, not simply issued.
Here's where you're wrong (again), Aaron. LeBron does not need to earn anything from you or any of the fans who think the way you do. He's not going to go out there and play with the intention of earning your respect or approval. He has no idea who you are or that you even exist. You could get hit by a bus and die right there in the street (Christ forbid) without him ever knowing that you were sharing this planet with him. And that's just as true about me. He's chasing championships, not your approval. He doesn't need your approval. When he plays, he'll be doing it for himself, his family, the organization, and the fans who are actually ecstatic that one of the greatest players of all time has chosen to be a Laker. For some reason, fans who think like you have mistakenly been duped by your own pride into believing that you're more important than you really are. Whether he wins a ring or two in LA or not, your approval or disproval of him won't be something he loses sleep over.
I would never trade for Prime Kobe for Lebron hell nah. I watched that guy play ,and some people forget how G.O.A.T he was
"if you want to have fun, like I did with Bill Walton, play with LeBron. It would have probably been more fun to play with LeBron, but if you want to win and win and win, it's Kobe. Not that LeBron's not a winner, just that [Kobe's] mindset is to go into every practice, every game, to get better."
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29347 Location: La La Land
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:13 pm Post subject:
Once upon a time, Kobe was considered "the bad guy" among Laker fans. He "drove Shaq out" and even asked for a trade a couple years later.
But I never turned on him. Because he gave every ounce of his soul to the purple and gold every second he was here.
I expect Lebron to do the same. And 5-10 years down the line. I'll be posting a "once upon a time" story about Lebron not getting love when he first came here. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
I would never trade for Prime Kobe for Lebron hell nah. I watched that guy play ,and some people forget how G.O.A.T he was
"if you want to have fun, like I did with Bill Walton, play with LeBron. It would have probably been more fun to play with LeBron, but if you want to win and win and win, it's Kobe. Not that LeBron's not a winner, just that [Kobe's] mindset is to go into every practice, every game, to get better."
Nice Larry 🐦 quote
Hope this doesn't become another Kobe vs LeBron thread where those crazy guys come in and post back and forth craziness which leads to the thread getting locked. Lol.
I would never trade for Prime Kobe for Lebron hell nah. I watched that guy play ,and some people forget how G.O.A.T he was
"if you want to have fun, like I did with Bill Walton, play with LeBron. It would have probably been more fun to play with LeBron, but if you want to win and win and win, it's Kobe. Not that LeBron's not a winner, just that [Kobe's] mindset is to go into every practice, every game, to get better."
Nice Larry 🐦 quote
Hope this doesn't become another Kobe vs LeBron thread where those crazy guys come in and post back and forth craziness which leads to the thread getting locked. Lol.
always going to happen! For me, its about having the best possible team and that the front office does its job to get that done. They have!
Its about the Lakers, not Lebron, not Kobe, not Magic, not Kareem, not JOrdan. LAKERS!
Joined: 07 Jun 2002 Posts: 9674 Location: San Diego
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:30 am Post subject:
KobeIsTheOne wrote:
Inspector Gadget wrote:
This seems like a article written to cause baiting between Kobe fans and LeBron fans, I’m pretty sure there is a lot of Laker fans who loved Kobe but now appreciate LeBron coming here.
That is not the intention at all. It exists as a counter position to rectify the posits of the mainstream media, who have mischaracterized the REASONS that some Laker fans are not in favor of seeing LeBron in purple and gold.
I could care less why some fans are not in favor of seeing Lebron as a Laker. Those people are losers, living in the past.. They will recede into the past and I am moving forward.
I have to say, Kobe was awesome, a top 3 Lakers of all time, I will forever cherish being able to watch his whole career. But not being able to appreciate Lebron because of some perceived negation of Kobe's legacy is absolute rubbish with no place to exist in the Lakers family of fans. All you guys who think like this can just go die, as far as I am concerned you should all be diagnosed with mental disabilities and committed.
We have had the worst team in the history of the LA Lakers. Lebron is being extremely generous and trusting of Magic to sign with us. He will help us rebuild to become a team that is, at the very least, dangerous to the rest of the league. He will help our youngsters develop and attract other players to play here. Kobe, post injury, was unable to do that, in fact, unfortunately it was the opposite.
Why you nuts cannot find happiness in all this, is beyond me. You all need to get laid! _________________ Never argue with stupid people! They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!! - Twain
Joined: 07 Jun 2002 Posts: 9674 Location: San Diego
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:32 am Post subject:
KobeIsTheOne wrote:
george w kush wrote:
KobeIsTheOne wrote:
george w kush wrote:
The title of the article should be 'Why so many Kobe stans reject the media-driven "King James" narrative' because if you're a LAKERS fan, you support a player of Lebron's caliber coming here. LAKERS FANS are all about getting players who are about helping the franchise win a championship. KOBE STANS are all about protecting Kobe's legacy.
Cowherd said it best:
This is exactly the problem. It is not about "Kobe Stans". That is just the go to argument. Try and look a little deeper than that.
And Cowherd has been horrible for some time now.
No, it really is as simple as it sounds. If you're a fan of the team, you support whatever moves the team makes to win a championship. In this case, they signed one of the top 5 players of all time. Nobody is rejecting anything. 99% of the posters here are thrilled with the signing, and Laker fans(not media people) are lining up to buy his jerseys:
The only people that are rejecting the move are Cavs fans and Kobe stans. That's about it.
I respectfully disagree.
And I have spoken with dozens, if not hundreds of fans, many season ticket holders, who also disagree.
There are legions of long time fans who sincerely feel that he doesn't deserve to be wearing the purple and gold for reasons that quite honestly have zero to do with any other player.
I call BS.
you have a strange take on this and have much less support than you think. _________________ Never argue with stupid people! They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!! - Twain
Last edited by Wino on Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:37 am; edited 1 time in total
Kobe is my idol, my only idol, and he'll remains the only one.
I'm not afraid of Lebron. In fact, I'm so excited that I waked up my girlfriend at 3 am, the day Lebron signed, to tell her thow crazy I was with the news. I'm a laker, first of fall.
We didn't hate Lebron, we hated the treatement that the press, the NBA and some fans did to Kobe. Now they'l do the same with Lebron, and we are here to protect him.
Joined: 07 Jun 2002 Posts: 9674 Location: San Diego
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:48 am Post subject:
Mustaine wrote:
Kobe is my idol, my only idol, and he'll remains the only one.
I'm not afraid of Lebron. In fact, I'm so excited that I waked up my girlfriend at 3 am, the day Lebron signed, to tell her thow crazy I was with the news. I'm a laker, first of fall.
We didn't hate Lebron, we hated the treatement that the press, the NBA and some fans did to Kobe. Now they'l do the same with Lebron, and we are here to protect him.
I do feel like the press, and especially ESPN, have been extremely unfair to Kobe. Kobe carried the league for a few years and has been a generational talent. All the other good players know this, but the NBA under Stern and the media conspired to keep him from being recognized for the greatness he was. Oh well, their loss and THEY can go F themselves. I will NEVER respect ESPN again and despite the good things that Stern did, there will always be an asterisk by his name for me. I think Stern screwed Dr. Buss too, I think he was involved in a number of decisions that hurt the Lakers and I will forever remember that creep for the backstabbing creep he is. I hope he reads this and realizes there are people who don't appreciate him at all.
So, I have a high level of response to all this and really feel like Kobe got screwed. I also believe that Lebron was anointed his lofty position too soon and at the detriment to Kobe. Kobe should have been anointed the savior of the league and given his few years of respect. Truth is, he took it anyhow but even in the face of it, the NBA and press were unwilling to acknowledge it. Instead they anointed Lebron. It irked me at the time but it was never Lebron's fault. Somebody was going to be put in this position, it wasn't up to him, he didn't hire Stern and ESPN to make this happen, they did it on their own.
Truth is, I have never heard anything but positive comments about Kobe from guys like Lebron and Durant. The best players have always acknowledged Kobe as the best.
All you Kobe fans who are getting on Lebron about it, are directing your anger in the wrong direction, point it at the NBA and ESPN as they have both been egregious. _________________ Never argue with stupid people! They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!! - Twain
Man, this is not even a real rival like Duncan joining us or gasp, a Malone... this is LeBron, a guy we never even face in the playoff joining us. Are we that insecure about 'the subjective greatest Lakers player title'? Isn't Kobe's Lakers legacy secured (I sure think so)?
When Michael Jordan ascended to being considered the unanimous GOAT (by mainstream media and casual fans) everything changed.
After that the media was forever obsessed with finding the "Next Jordan". Everyone from Harold Miner ("Baby Jordan") to Vince Carter to Jerry Stackhouse got the "Next Jordan" label put on them. Here's a good Sportscenter featurette called "The Curse of Jordan: Playing in the Shadow" that does an excellent job of detailing this:
But then along came Kobe, who set himself apart from those other "faux Next Jordans" by reaching an individual level of play comparable to Jordan, winning championships like Jordan, displaying a ruthless competitive mentality like Jordan, and mimicking his game the closest anyone has ever been able to (he even had the same coach in Phil Jackson).
And the "Next Jordan" comparisons flourished for Kobe. I can remember specific individual moments when the comparisons were at their loudest: after the Game 4 takeover vs the Pacers in 2000 Finals when Shaq fouled out; during his 2001 playoffs run; during crunch time of the 2002 playoffs; during his 2003 regular season scoring explosions (including a perfectly symbolic "snatching of the torch" game where Kobe dropped 55 during his final game against Wizards MJ).
But those "Next Jordan" comparisons came with a caveat. There was always pushback against Kobe being crowned as the "Next Jordan" (which was enhanced by the extremely biased and weirdly defensive pro-Jordan sports media), especially since Kobe came into the league while MJ was still in it. And the media started spinning narratives to put a glass ceiling on Kobe's greatness. Fueled by sports "analysts" and "writers" like Bill "Sports Guy" Simmons and Henry Abbot, who would literally put out hit pieces taking direct shots at Kobe's greatness and empowering casual fans to do the same.
All this came to a head in the 2004 season, when Kobe's reputation and image reached an all-time low because of the sexual assault trail, the breakup of the championship Lakers (being blamed for running both Shaq and Phil out of town) and Phil's book calling him "uncoachable". And then Kobe had to work really hard to repair his image after that.
Throughout it all the media and the anti-Kobe fans that refuse to acknowledge his greatness tried desperately to claim many players as better than Kobe: first it was Vince Carter, then it was Iverson, then it was TMac, then it was DWade (this was at its loudest when Wade had an all-time great Finals performance and won Finals MVP in 2006 at age 24, and was deemed the more socially polished and untainted alternative to "Next Jordan" that Kobe presented).
And finally... LeBron came along. A guy who in highschool already had the body of a prime Kobe. And the media anointed him "The Chosen One" before he had even set foot on an NBA court.
And just like other players before him (TMac, Wade, etc.) the media and the anti-Kobe fans started propping LeBron up as a way to tear Kobe down. If Kobe was the "black sheep/villain" Next Jordan then LeBron has always been the "favorite son/hero" Next Jordan. Kobe is the "ballhog, bad teammate who doesn't make his teammates better". LeBron is the "perfect teammate who always makes the right basketball play and makes everyone around him better". LeBron got all the regular season MVPs (media-voted), while Kobe got stiffed out of more MVP's and only got one as a "career achievement" cause the media realized how dumb they would look retroactively if the greatest player of his era ended up with 0 MVPs.
And THAT's where the backlash against LeBron from "Kobe Stans" comes from. It's not some insecurity because they feel like Kobe will be forgotten or because LeBron has surpassed Kobe (like guys like Cowherd and the poster george w. kush would try to convince you. Because it's just another sly way to allow them to express and spin the narrative that LeBron is "way better" than Kobe).
It's because of the blatant double-standard and hypocrisy that's been on display when judging these two great players vs Jordan and in the GOAT conversation.
Scott Van Pelt said it best on his recent Sportscenter essay on Kobe: "His detractors are mostly people who prefer MJ or LeBron and would rather minimize Kobe by comparison. I'd make the ice-cream analogy, it's simply what flavor you prefer."
Lebron was the best player in the league last season and unless he has some miraculous run with us, he’s going down as the 2nd greatest of all time. For some reason big men don’t count, so it’s Jordan then Lebron. Deal with it or cheer for a different team next season. The Nets, the Pelicans, the Cavs, etc... I’m not being mean, but people have gotten too ridiculous. Lebron hasn’t done anything detrimental to the team or the youth yet. The Lakers wanted him and he wanted LA. Win Win for all of us.
If this was about wanting Randle instead of Lebron I can maybe see the angle in that (Homegrown, more years left, etc). But because of Retired Sociopath ISO Hero Ball Kobe was your whole childhood is not a good reason. You deserve Lebron. Your kids deserve Lebron. Heck, even your wife deserves Lebron 😜. He’s a Laker now. Enjoy!
Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 11197 Location: The Other Perspective
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:06 am Post subject:
Nash Vegas wrote:
Article from the Citizen Channel?
The Citizen what?!
Who the bleep cares about an article from a never heard of publisher and a never heard of writer?!
Not even worth thread title update, come on op or Mods.
So unnecessary and dumb
LakerSanity wrote:
The author is a poster here. Was trying to do him a solid as we would for most posters here. Gotta start somewhere.
That blog post was trash imo, but I gotta credit the mods here for trying to get an LGer a little visibility. _________________ "Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
double-standard and hypocrisy that's been on display when judging these two great players vs Jordan and in the GOAT conversation.
