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GoldenThroat
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 Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| lakersfever714 wrote: | | ibij wrote: | Lebron is making young cores suffer....  |
Could you elaborate on this? Lebron is literally carrying the entire Lakers team while we try to develop Ingram and Lonzo. We've won games while BI and Lonzo were complete garbage. Lebron is giving us the luxury of trying to develop our youth but still winning games.
Hart and Kuzma aren't suffering. |
You're wondering why the guys who had the ball in their hands last year are taking longer to adjust to LeBron James than the guys who didn't? |
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FanOfFour
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Fracture
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4OnTheFloor
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ltsmash
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Is that his actual free throw motion or was he just messing with everyone? Didn't Rondo do something like that in the past? I recall watching a video where Rondo shot a fake free throw - pretty funny to say the least. |
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methdxman
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:24 am Post subject: |
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Honestly, I only see young Laker fans still high on Lonzo. I have no idea why?
I think the OGs see his ceiling as being a journeyman at most. But I'm calling it here... he's a bust. The guy just doesn't have that "energy" to get over difficulties. You don't see it or feel it.
My hope is that we can trade him while he still has some value from untapped potential for a dead-eye shooter.
Honestly, if there was a site where I could bet on Lonzo ball NEVER making an all-star team within the next 5 years, I would wager 10 grand easily and not even think about it.
If I could bet on "Lonzo Ball plays for 3 ball clubs before going to a foreign league" I would bet 10 grand and not lose one second of sleep. The guy has bust written all over him. He and Fultz both have that "sad" energy. |
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durden-tyler
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:23 am Post subject: |
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LOL, Ball is already a good to great defender, and has amazing passing abilities. There's absolutely no way he's a bust. There's a huge gap between being a multiple all star and being a bust. Oh and in 5 years, he'll be 26, just entering his prime. There are a lot of good NBA players who were selected to the ASG "late" in their career :
Oladipo (25)
Hayward (26)
Sam Cassell (34)
Iguodala (28)
Van Exel (26)
Fat Lever (27)
And the list goes on... |
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durden-tyler
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:25 am Post subject: |
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| Oh and by the way I'm not a "young" Laker fan anymore... |
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LandsbergerRules
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| durden-tyler wrote: | LOL, Ball is already a good to great defender, and has amazing passing abilities. There's absolutely no way he's a bust. There's a huge gap between being a multiple all star and being a bust. Oh and in 5 years, he'll be 26, just entering his prime. There are a lot of good NBA players who were selected to the ASG "late" in their career :
Oladipo (25)
Hayward (26)
Sam Cassell (34)
Iguodala (28)
Van Exel (26)
Fat Lever (27)
And the list goes on... |
Agreed. Zo's not a future franchise/MVP type, but I don't think he's even close to an Anthony Bennett-level bust.
_________________
"Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him |
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defense
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| If you think ball is a bust your basketball knowledge is questionable. He may never be an all star but bust is laughable. |
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Fortysixn2
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| methdxman wrote: | Honestly, I only see young Laker fans still high on Lonzo. I have no idea why?
I think the OGs see his ceiling as being a journeyman at most. But I'm calling it here... he's a bust. The guy just doesn't have that "energy" to get over difficulties. You don't see it or feel it.
My hope is that we can trade him while he still has some value from untapped potential for a dead-eye shooter.
Honestly, if there was a site where I could bet on Lonzo ball NEVER making an all-star team within the next 5 years, I would wager 10 grand easily and not even think about it.
If I could bet on "Lonzo Ball plays for 3 ball clubs before going to a foreign league" I would bet 10 grand and not lose one second of sleep. The guy has bust written all over him. He and Fultz both have that "sad" energy. |
I’ve been a lakers fan since the mid 80s and I like Ball. I know offensively he’s very limited, but I like the other stuff he Brings to the table. I think everybody gets caught up in just raw PPG. There is this buzz about trae young, reality is that he takes twice as many shots as zo and is a worse shooter and defender. Donovan Mitchell is a worse shooter than zo this season, takes over 2x the amount of shots and is a poor defender and everybody thinks he’s great.
I think if anything the gap between Zo fans and everybody else has more to do with the casual fan vs the educated fan. If you are at all into analytics you know that Ball is actually a very productive player, even when he only scores 5 points. |
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PauPau
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:48 am Post subject: |
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I dont think Ball is a bust, not at all actually
I think the 'bust' label is arising(and im sympathetic) as a result of the undeserved expectations that were placed on his shoulders ie it depends on the scale that's used in apraising him.
His struggles are generally unsurprising, the airballs omitted.
He's a good player with a unique skillset and he's a Laker, I hope he gets better.
I doubt however, as I always have, that he transcends anything. |
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| A 21 year old pg who’s already a quality NBA starter and he’s a bust... got it. |
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LandsbergerRules
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| PauPau wrote: | I dont think Ball is a bust, not at all actually
I think the 'bust' label is arising(and im sympathetic) as a result of the undeserved expectations that were placed on his shoulders ie it depends on the scale that's used in apraising him.
His struggles are generally unsurprising, the airballs omitted.
He's a good player with a unique skillset and he's a Laker, I hope he gets better.
I doubt however, as I always have, that he transcends anything. |
Agreed. All this "Don't break all my records/face of the organization" hype from Magic did the kid a disservice. Definitely not transcendent, but I can see Zo making an All-Star team or two in his prime.
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"Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him
Last edited by LandsbergerRules on Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:39 am Post subject: |
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Best case scenario (JKIDD): a low PPG scoring, high APG/SPG/defending player who can guard multiple positions.
Worst case scenario (Shaun Livingston): solid defender and passer, role player.
I'm trying to think of a healthy middle scenario...
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danzag
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:46 am Post subject: |
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Bust for me is someone who has no NBA talent.
Ball clearly has, even if he's no franchise changer |
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LandsbergerRules
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | Best case scenario (JKIDD): a low PPG scoring, high APG/SPG/defending player who can guard multiple positions.
Worst case scenario (Shaun Livingston): solid defender and passer, role player.
I'm trying to think of a healthy middle scenario... |
Zo's middle scenario a solid starting PG like Ricky Rubio perhaps?
_________________
"Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| LandsbergerRules wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Best case scenario (JKIDD): a low PPG scoring, high APG/SPG/defending player who can guard multiple positions.
Worst case scenario (Shaun Livingston): solid defender and passer, role player.
I'm trying to think of a healthy middle scenario... |
Zo's middle scenario a solid starting PG like Ricky Rubio perhaps? |
Not a bad comparison. Though I think Zo is a better 3 point shooter and Rubio is more fluid overall.
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Jesusdelonla
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| i dont care about his shot falling or not but I dont like his energy/hustle fluctuating from half to half |
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LandsbergerRules
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:39 am Post subject: |
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Livingston was picked #4 in his draft and Rubio at #5 in his. Are they seen as being busts, considering neither became multi-year All-Stars?
_________________
"Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Best case scenario (JKIDD): a low PPG scoring, high APG/SPG/defending player who can guard multiple positions.
Worst case scenario (Shaun Livingston): solid defender and passer, role player.
I'm trying to think of a healthy middle scenario... |
Zo's middle scenario a solid starting PG like Ricky Rubio perhaps? |
Not a bad comparison. Though I think Zo is a better 3 point shooter and Rubio is more fluid overall. |
Worst case: He never progresses much from where he is right now, or maybe even regresses a little. Likely or not, it happens. He winds up as a low volume, more or less average efficiency shooter in a league that expects a point guard to be a scoring threat. He has passing skills, but is not a floor general. He plays above average defense. That adds up to a backup PG who plays 20-25 minutes on the second unit for some team. (Note: This is not meant as a prediction, nor am I trying to be depressing. But if you want the worst case scenario, this is it.)
Middle case: Rubio with a better shot.
Better case: Chauncey Billups with more rebounding and a notch better defense.
Ideal case: Jason Kidd
I am losing faith in the Jason Kidd scenario because Ball does not seem to have the same alpha personality. Also, the Jason Kidd style is a product of the old NBA. I don't think a player like prime Jason Kidd would be valued as highly in the current era. The metrics tell us that '03 was Kidd's peak season. Here's the line:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/pi/shareit/3DkfN
Would those be all-star or all-NBA numbers today? Maybe not, even accounting for the fact that some of the numbers would be higher due to increased pace. And that was his best season. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| danzag wrote: | Bust for me is someone who has no NBA talent.
Ball clearly has, even if he's no franchise changer |
We've had this sort of discussion before. What is a bust? Does draft position matter? Do injuries matter? Is someone who becomes an average player a bust, or do they have to be a complete wipeout? If Kwame Brown had been a second round pick, would we consider him a bust? What about Greg Oden?
Different people will see this differently. I don't think in terms of "bust." I think in terms of whether the draft choice advanced the progress of the franchise. We had three #2 picks plus the Randle pick. Two of them are gone now. The other two remain question marks. |
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Staccatos
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Joined: 16 Jul 2002
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:07 am Post subject: |
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This would all be resolved if Magic Johnson would just start some LG polls on what players he should keep and which he should get rid of.
Everyone wins! |
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Fracture
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Joined: 01 Feb 2005
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Staccatos wrote: | This would all be resolved if Magic Johnson would just start some LG polls on what players he should keep and which he should get rid of.
Everyone wins! |
Final result would be: trade everyone, build around Bonga. |
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CRoost
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Best case scenario (JKIDD): a low PPG scoring, high APG/SPG/defending player who can guard multiple positions.
Worst case scenario (Shaun Livingston): solid defender and passer, role player.
I'm trying to think of a healthy middle scenario... |
Zo's middle scenario a solid starting PG like Ricky Rubio perhaps? |
Not a bad comparison. Though I think Zo is a better 3 point shooter and Rubio is more fluid overall. |
Worst case: He never progresses much from where he is right now, or maybe even regresses a little. Likely or not, it happens. He winds up as a low volume, more or less average efficiency shooter in a league that expects a point guard to be a scoring threat. He has passing skills, but is not a floor general. He plays above average defense. That adds up to a backup PG who plays 20-25 minutes on the second unit for some team. (Note: This is not meant as a prediction, nor am I trying to be depressing. But if you want the worst case scenario, this is it.)
Middle case: Rubio with a better shot.
Better case: Chauncey Billups with more rebounding and a notch better defense.
Ideal case: Jason Kidd
I am losing faith in the Jason Kidd scenario because Ball does not seem to have the same alpha personality. Also, the Jason Kidd style is a product of the old NBA. I don't think a player like prime Jason Kidd would be valued as highly in the current era. The metrics tell us that '03 was Kidd's peak season. Here's the line:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/pi/shareit/3DkfN
Would those be all-star or all-NBA numbers today? Maybe not, even accounting for the fact that some of the numbers would be higher due to increased pace. And that was his best season. |
Agree about the alpha personality. He’s lacking swagger too. Having Rondo and Lebron will help him though in the long run. He can be a quiet leader like Duncan was. |
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