The Myth of Kobe never being able to attract free agents
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:28 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
activeverb wrote:
slavavov wrote:
It's rare to see a GOAT-level player attract a big name FA. Steph Curry attracting KD was exceptional and it only happened because the cap rose big time that summer.

The other thing is that guys like Kobe, Lebron, MJ and even Magic aren't easy to play with, both in terms of style and play and also in terms of things like them demanding the best of their teammates as leaders and getting all of the credit when their team wins.


It's rare, in part because until recently it wasn't as easy for free agents to move around, and, as you note, creating a lot of cap with a superstar in his prime is hard. I can only think of three times it's been pulled off:

1. Durant joining with Curry & Co.
2. Lebron joining with Wade and Bosh.
3. Moses joining with Dr. J


Tim Duncan was pretty close to joining Grant Hill and Tracy McGrady



That would have been something.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:27 pm    Post subject:

the nba landscape was very different (regarding all this) before lebron went to Miami. AFter that, and especially after Durant went to the warriors, everything is different.

On a relative level, comparisons can be made with other eras, including Kobes, but you need to be careful about what you are talking about. A lot has been said about superteams, but there were superteams always, just not popularly known as such. And there were also big differences that, again, changed in 2010.

WIth Lebron, we have literally seen how players dont want to play with him. With Kobe, you never actually saw it or players didnt say it. With Kobe, what happened was that players COULDNT play with him even if they wanted because of logistical reasons that are different now. The narrative on this particular lebron vs kobe issue is really flip flopped. Not only do players dont want to play with lbj and wanted to play with Kobe...but also players that played with Kobe did better individually, when just about any star that played with LBJ did worse individually. And the narrative in popular opinion is the opposite.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:52 pm    Post subject:

PartyMan wrote:
There was 2014 and 2015 but nobody wanted to hop on that sinking ship. 2014 would’ve been the best chance I can remember with Melo still being pretty good, despite the hate he gets, and teaming him with Kobe and a re-signed Pau.


And let's not forget Jim Buss. The guy was so bad at meetings we had to beg LMA for a second attempt. Jimbo is not without blame for those years.
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epak
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:56 pm    Post subject:

When Kobe was in his prime the Lakers didn't have cap space.
Easy.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:27 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
Lebron went from the willing passer that everyone wanted to play with to getting the Kobe treatment with the media.


Yeah funny how that happened now that he's a Laker.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:53 am    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
the nba landscape was very different (regarding all this) before lebron went to Miami. AFter that, and especially after Durant went to the warriors, everything is different.

On a relative level, comparisons can be made with other eras, including Kobes, but you need to be careful about what you are talking about. A lot has been said about superteams, but there were superteams always, just not popularly known as such. And there were also big differences that, again, changed in 2010.

WIth Lebron, we have literally seen how players dont want to play with him. With Kobe, you never actually saw it or players didnt say it. With Kobe, what happened was that players COULDNT play with him even if they wanted because of logistical reasons that are different now. The narrative on this particular lebron vs kobe issue is really flip flopped. Not only do players dont want to play with lbj and wanted to play with Kobe...but also players that played with Kobe did better individually, when just about any star that played with LBJ did worse individually. And the narrative in popular opinion is the opposite.


LeBron a Laker now, he gonna get the Kobe narrative
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:27 am    Post subject:

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WIth Lebron, we have literally seen how players dont want to play with him. With Kobe, you never actually saw it or players didnt say it. With Kobe, what happened was that players COULDNT play with him even if they wanted because of logistical reasons that are different now. The narrative on this particular lebron vs kobe issue is really flip flopped. Not only do players dont want to play with lbj and wanted to play with Kobe...but also players that played with Kobe did better individually, when just about any star that played with LBJ did worse individually. And the narrative in popular opinion is the opposite.


This isn't exactly true. Wade/Bosh/LBJ all worked together to play together in the prime of their careers. That's 3 all NBA players working out a plan to be on the same team.

Kyrie was the guy, who after winning a ring with LBJ (and no way he does it on his own), wanted out. He didn't want out b/f he got a ring, but AFTER he got on. So the incessant dumping on LBJ is not even historically correct. Players have said it was tough playing under LBJ, but they also can look at a NBA championship ring on their hand too.

Kobe didn't really have a max FA space carved out for him. But his Achilles injury changed everything. He signed a max deal while recovering and other max level FAs said no thank you, most likely b/c of his injury.

So your sweeping conclusions are without merit.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:33 am    Post subject:

Isn't Tim Duncan a contemporary of Kobe's? Don't they both have five rings? So how many all star free agents in their prime did Duncan attract? But no one in the media gets on his case.

I mean, even Magic "couldn't attract free agents". He also had five rings, but Worthy was drafted, Byron came in a trade, and Kareem was already there when he arrived. It's a ridiculous argument that they only apply to Kobe.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:04 am    Post subject:

joeblow wrote:
Isn't Tim Duncan a contemporary of Kobe's? Don't they both have five rings? So how many all star free agents in their prime did Duncan attract? But no one in the media gets on his case.

I mean, even Magic "couldn't attract free agents". He also had five rings, but Worthy was drafted, Byron came in a trade, and Kareem was already there when he arrived. It's a ridiculous argument that they only apply to Kobe.


I think the distinction is - once you have a championship core, you don't need to attract any major free agents.

Tim Duncan never went through a period of needing to build his team into a championship core. He pretty much had a championship core throughout his whole career. Same with Magic.

Kobe and LeBron went through periods of needing to attract more talent to build up a championship core. I think that's where the distinction lies.

Kobe had the period between Shaq and Gasol where the Lakers weren't championship contenders. Then after the Kobe-Gasol Lakers weren't contenders anymore, he needed to attract more free agents.

LeBron had his first 7 years in Cleveland where he couldn't attract any top level free agents. I think the highest profile player they signed was Larry Hughes. (Not saying this is valid criticism of LeBron, just saying that's the narrative).

Magic was always on a contender from his rookie year until his last year. Plus, there wasn't free agency back then. Wasn't Tom Chambers the first NBA unrestricted free agent in 1988? Magic retired after the 1990-91 season.


Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:07 am    Post subject:

Westbrook got PG13 to sign, Which Star FA has KD ever attract? Any in OKC?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:09 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Westbrook got PG13 to sign, Which Star FA has KD ever attract? Any in OKC?


I think the narrative was OKC had more than enough talent to compete w/o needing to attract another major free agent. They had so much talent they gave Harden away.

Once KD left, OKC had a shortage of talent and weren't contenders anymore.

No one blames Shaq for failing to attract major free agents. He was always on a title contending team for the duration of his prime.

1) Orlando w/ Penny Hardaway
2) Lakers w/ Kobe
3) Miami w/ Wade

I think Shaq only attracted one major free agent his entire career and that was Horace Grant. (I don't think they count Karl Malone and Gary Payton who were past their primes at that point).


Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:15 am    Post subject:

I seem to remember both Kobe and LeBron almost always playing on stacked teams.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:25 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
the nba landscape was very different (regarding all this) before lebron went to Miami. AFter that, and especially after Durant went to the warriors, everything is different.

On a relative level, comparisons can be made with other eras, including Kobes, but you need to be careful about what you are talking about. A lot has been said about superteams, but there were superteams always, just not popularly known as such. And there were also big differences that, again, changed in 2010.

WIth Lebron, we have literally seen how players dont want to play with him. With Kobe, you never actually saw it or players didnt say it. With Kobe, what happened was that players COULDNT play with him even if they wanted because of logistical reasons that are different now. The narrative on this particular lebron vs kobe issue is really flip flopped. Not only do players dont want to play with lbj and wanted to play with Kobe...but also players that played with Kobe did better individually, when just about any star that played with LBJ did worse individually. And the narrative in popular opinion is the opposite.


LeBron a Laker now, he gonna get the Kobe narrative


I don't care about narratives myself. That's just the way of trying to debate an opinion that no one here is actually actually saying.

Here's my opinion. All this Kobe vs. LeBron stuff is just BS. Any star whose game or personality doesnt mesh with them will have to adapt because they're the alpha. if they dont adapt they'll be gone.

I dont think overall players stats changed playing with either of them, other than the obvious fact if you go from being a #1 guy to a #3 you will sacrifice shots and points.

sorry for the outtburst but I just get bored and tired of the relentless, desperate, silly spinning on this topic
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:30 am    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
joeblow wrote:
Isn't Tim Duncan a contemporary of Kobe's? Don't they both have five rings? So how many all star free agents in their prime did Duncan attract? But no one in the media gets on his case.

I mean, even Magic "couldn't attract free agents". He also had five rings, but Worthy was drafted, Byron came in a trade, and Kareem was already there when he arrived. It's a ridiculous argument that they only apply to Kobe.


I think the distinction is - once you have a championship core, you don't need to attract any major free agents.

Tim Duncan never went through a period of needing to build his team into a championship core. He pretty much had a championship core throughout his whole career. Same with Magic.

Kobe and LeBron went through periods of needing to attract more talent to build up a championship core. I think that's where the distinction lies.

Kobe had the period between Shaq and Gasol where the Lakers weren't championship contenders. Then after the Kobe-Gasol Lakers weren't contenders anymore, he needed to attract more free agents.

LeBron had his first 7 years in Cleveland where he couldn't attract any top level free agents. I think the highest profile player they signed was Larry Hughes. (Not saying this is valid criticism of LeBron, just saying that's the narrative).

Magic was always on a contender from his rookie year until his last year. Plus, there wasn't free agency back then. Wasn't Tom Chambers the first NBA unrestricted free agent in 1988? Magic retired after the 1990-91 season.

All three ended their careers with five rings and not one was helped by a significant free agent signing to make it happen. That's the end result that shows it is still a ridiculous argument.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:35 am    Post subject:

Attracting a star FA is hard and uncommon to begin with. Mostly, because teams will go to extreme lengths to keep their stars and when it doesn't work out, the breakup typically occurs via trade. There is also the factor of the front office who might have actually been the one that made a FA acquisition problematic, and not necessarily strictly the star already in place.

The reality is that for every star player, there will be other star players who would like to play with him. We know players want to play with Lebron (Wade/Bosh), we know players want to play with Kobe (Gasol), we know players want to play with KD (Curry), and even Westbrook (PG).

The transaction type, to me, is kind of irrelevant because there are a myriad of reasons why in a FA scenario, a deal couldn't have been worked out beyond the star player that's already there.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:35 am    Post subject:

RG73 wrote:
splashmtn wrote:
awntawn wrote:
It wasn't that nobody wanted to play with Kobe, it's that once Kobe tore his achilles, everyone knew he was done and that the Lakers would be a farewell tank tour until he was done.
that last part is not true at all. NO ONE knew this, including us fans. we knew this once it was shown to us thats what it was going to be. there was no precedent for this prior. Which means there was no way to know that was going to happen the way it did.


There was no precedent for a player in his mid-30s with lots of mileage already tearing his Achilles being done?

The studies all indicate that Achilles injuries typically diminish basketball players longterm, if they're even able to return. So yes, everyone knew he was done as the player he was before. Yes, there was the slight chance he'd be Dominique Wilkins post-AT injury, but that chance was very, very slight.
you completely missed my point. No one knew there would be a farewell tour until their was a farewell tour. i'm not talking about him being hurt.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:37 am    Post subject:

<
Threads like this are nothing more than an excuse to stand up on a box in a crowded room and yell, "my guy rules, the other guy sucks"


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:37 am    Post subject:

It's funny b/c no one in the national media criticized LBJ about not being able to attract max FAs (let's not forget he never had that cap space with Kyrie/Love already there or the fact 3 FAs teamed up in Miami) UNTIL he became a Laker.

It's more of a Laker hater thing IMO than LBJ hating.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:39 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
It's funny b/c no one in the national media criticized LBJ about not being able to attract max FAs (let's not forget he never had that cap space with Kyrie/Love already there or the fact 3 FAs teamed up in Miami) UNTIL he became a Laker.

It's more of a Laker hater thing IMO than LBJ hating.


And I don't even know why it is happening. We haven't failed to attract a free agent yet in the Lebron era.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:44 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
It's funny b/c no one in the national media criticized LBJ about not being able to attract max FAs (let's not forget he never had that cap space with Kyrie/Love already there or the fact 3 FAs teamed up in Miami) UNTIL he became a Laker.

It's more of a Laker hater thing IMO than LBJ hating.


And I don't even know why it is happening. We haven't failed to attract a free agent yet in the Lebron era.


And technically, PG13 re-upped with OKC b/f LBJ committed to the Lakers (heh). So LBJ wasn't even a Laker yet.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:45 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
It's funny b/c no one in the national media criticized LBJ about not being able to attract max FAs (let's not forget he never had that cap space with Kyrie/Love already there or the fact 3 FAs teamed up in Miami) UNTIL he became a Laker.

It's more of a Laker hater thing IMO than LBJ hating.


And I don't even know why it is happening. We haven't failed to attract a free agent yet in the Lebron era.


And technically, PG13 re-upped with OKC b/f LBJ committed to the Lakers (heh). So LBJ wasn't even a Laker yet.


Yup. Let's actually fail at something before we declare that we fail at something. lol.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:51 am    Post subject:

I still don't understand why PG would love to be WB's wing man and live in OKC and not want to be remembered on a championship caliber team with LBJ in his home town. He would have gotten so much love out in LA.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:56 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I still don't understand why PG would love to be WB's wing man and live in OKC and not want to be remembered on a championship caliber team with LBJ in his home town. He would have gotten so much love out in LA.


This is one of those head scratching situations. It was one of the dumbest decisions ever made.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:58 am    Post subject:

danzag wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I still don't understand why PG would love to be WB's wing man and live in OKC and not want to be remembered on a championship caliber team with LBJ in his home town. He would have gotten so much love out in LA.


This is one of those head scratching situations. It was one of the dumbest decisions ever made.


I'm sure he'll get deep into the playoffs a few times with OKC, but man, you had the city of LA at your doorstep and with a player that is more proven and better than WB.

I just am perplexed at all the excuses he gives about why he didn't even bother to meet with Magic. He wrote the story about basically coming home to LA and then decided last minute (remember a sudden change about 2 weeks b/f FA where almost 99% of the national media and insiders had PG coming to the Lakers)?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:58 am    Post subject:

danzag wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I still don't understand why PG would love to be WB's wing man and live in OKC and not want to be remembered on a championship caliber team with LBJ in his home town. He would have gotten so much love out in LA.


This is one of those head scratching situations. It was one of the dumbest decisions ever made.


Only explanation I can think of is he didn't have the balls to tell Westbrook he wants to leave.
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