The NBA has made a mockery of basketball
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:27 pm    Post subject:

Sounds like excuses for airball threes and fumbled inbound passes. If we don’t do those things, we win that game.
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The Lebrons
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:40 pm    Post subject:

Cochese wrote:
Harden is a great player, I just find his style to be annoying. just my opinion.


He is 2nd on my list of teams/guys I don't want to see win a title.

1. Celtics
2. Harden
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drae
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:41 pm    Post subject:

The Lebrons wrote:
Cochese wrote:
Harden is a great player, I just find his style to be annoying. just my opinion.


He is 2nd on my list of teams/guys I don't want to see win a title.

1. Celtics
2. Harden


I don't like the Warriors and the 200 billion All Stars on their roster, but I was cheering for them last year against the Rockets.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:52 pm    Post subject:

cthroatgtr wrote:
I don't believe for a second the league is trying to prop Harden up by helping him. What I believe has happened is he is exploiting the rules and in the process the league would rather explain why they aren't calling it than clean up the rules. They can easily fix this by a) clean up the 0 step/gather definition b) make sure the two steps (not three) are in the flow of shooting c) fine him for flopping on his 3s and yes he does it a lot and d) call the push offs already.

He is essentially three and four step space by driving his defender in, "gently" pushing him off and letting the momentum carry him away then taking 3 steps back leveraging the "gather" as a step. Didn't the league redefine the jump stop? This is the same as the jump stop into two steps to shoot which is a travel. People are arguing by restating what the league has stated, but lets be honest with ourselves. This looks bad when you watch it.


Pretty much this.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:09 pm    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
CervantesRises wrote:

You're probably right DS...the 1st superstar with more FTs made than FGs made isn't exploiting the rules with the help of the NBA. It's all in our heads...the heads of fan bases from every other team...


What does the NBA gain by helping James Harden or the Houston Rockets? The guy has less all star votes than a rookie foreigner. Please tell me how this benefits the league? He's not a well liked player. We aren't a major market.


Having all likable players doesn’t benefit the league, having characters does. A guy with a beard who everybody hates because he baits refs and has a controversial go to move is marketable. I’m not saying I agree that a conspiracy is going on but there is a plausible motive.


James Harden is one of the least marketable star players in the league. Marketable players possess one or more of the following traits:

- Unique physical traits (size, strength, appealing style of play, athleticism)
- Personality
- Champion / winner

James Harden is neither of those things (and frankly, neither is AD). Baiting refs and having a controversial go to move has zero mass market appeal. You need to understand that in the game of marketability, the key is to maximize your appeal to the broadest possible audience. The things you mention get a lot of attention within the relatively small circle of the basketball world, yes, but the where the money is being made is in appealing to people outside of that circle. People want to be Lebron, play like Curry, win like Kobe. Those things drive marketability.


Scoring is marketable. Signature moves are marketable. Being a villain is marketable. Giant beards are marketable(as he has proven with his merchandise). We’re gonna have to agree to disagree on him being one of the least marketable players in the league. A guy on a Kobe type scoring run with a few signature moves and a discernible physical feature is very marketable to people who don’t watch the NBA much. Again, I don’t believe it’s a conspiracy but I don’t think you understand marketing if you don’t see why the league could use a superstar like Harden.


The league could use a superstar like Harden -- that is not in question. What is in question is his marketability. If there is one thing that I would consider myself an expert in -- it's in marketing.

You're missing the point. Anything and everything CAN be marketable. That is not in dispute. But those things you mention are sweeteners, not core attributes. Without the core attributes, the sweeteners don't matter and James Harden doesn't have any of the core attributes.

And here's proof. Last year, James Harden was the scoring champion, the leader of the team with the best record in the league, and the league MVP all at the same time. Quite an accomplishment and not even sure the last time someone did that. There aren't many distinctions left for him to have earned other than champion for last season.

Despite that -- he finished well outside of the top 5 in jersey sales (9th) and behind guys like Kyrie Irving and even Kristaps Porzingis who only played half the season.

And then this year, the guy can't even muster more All-Star votes than Derrick Rose? (I suppose the final tally is still to come but he has trailed Rose the entire time).

When you accomplish, on an individual level, all that Harden has (and he's done much of it simultaneously), but you cannot lead the way or even close in terms of jersey sales or all-star fan votes, that is the very definition of not being marketable.

But keep on with the beard theory if you must.

EDIT: I did not say he was among the least marketable players in the league. I said among the STARS, he is one of the least marketable.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:41 pm    Post subject:

NBA marketability:

Do you have the look of a superstar
Do you have flashy moves that make people watch in awe and want to dvr games just to see what you’ll do next
Do you have the personality that garners attention either positively or negatively(LeBron is extremely charismatic and much like Magic makes people feel like they matter to him) Shaq is hysterical and makes people want to be around him, and the flip side of that(Jordan and Kobe made it clear they want to destroy you at all costs and didn’t give a damn about you) and each of those players from Magic to Kobe were great at drawing people to those messages every time they stepped foot on and off the court. The commercial “hate me with everything that you have and are(or something like that)” from Kobe was very popular because people loved to hate him and give him the needed villain role, but when he retired people loved the man. Mass appeal to the different personality types.

Same formula continues throughout the generations in sports.

Harden is just (bleep) annoying.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:33 am    Post subject:

They call everything on defenders when they are guarding Harden...in the regular season.

In the playoffs, they allow you to play more aggressively, and this is why Harden struggles in the post season. He can't get away with it as much, so he gets frustrated and it gets into his head. He's that regular season guy.

The NBA doesn't even allow players to play defense any longer. Look at all these inflated numbers. Some dudes who have no business scoring 50 points doing that and also bringing down triple doubles. It's just the current state of the league. It will eventually change. Everything always does.

There's this popular opinion, especially in the media, that this is entertaining basketball. I see nothing entertaining about watching two teams shoot 100 three pointers. That's not basketball. They need to bring physicality back, allow teams to actually play defense. This soft brand of BS with all the jump shooting is entertaining how? "But they're scoring more points" Yeah, putting teams at the line to up the score is so exciting.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:55 am    Post subject:

Bballguru5000 wrote:
They call everything on defenders when they are guarding Harden...in the regular season.

In the playoffs, they allow you to play more aggressively, and this is why Harden struggles in the post season. He can't get away with it as much, so he gets frustrated and it gets into his head. He's that regular season guy.

The NBA doesn't even allow players to play defense any longer. Look at all these inflated numbers. Some dudes who have no business scoring 50 points doing that and also bringing down triple doubles. It's just the current state of the league. It will eventually change. Everything always does.

There's this popular opinion, especially in the media, that this is entertaining basketball. I see nothing entertaining about watching two teams shoot 100 three pointers. That's not basketball. They need to bring physicality back, allow teams to actually play defense. This soft brand of BS with all the jump shooting is entertaining how? "But they're scoring more points" Yeah, putting teams at the line to up the score is so exciting.


So true. It's looking more and more like College Ball where every team runs around a few times and chucks a 3 or exploits a defensive rotation at the rim.

Intellectually I can acknowledge what Steph/KD/Harden can do outside the paint, but on a gut level it's pretty meh. For me, NBA was world class athletes doing stuff I could never even start to try to do. Now, it's world class players doing stuff I can do only 1000X better. It doesn't speak to me nearly as much.

Now maybe if I could get more Greek Freak games here in LA.....
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:23 am    Post subject:

FWIW, this is why I call Harden the Floyd Mayweather of basketball. Some people think what Mayweather does is a science whereas other people just want to see two men fight.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:48 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
CervantesRises wrote:

You're probably right DS...the 1st superstar with more FTs made than FGs made isn't exploiting the rules with the help of the NBA. It's all in our heads...the heads of fan bases from every other team...


What does the NBA gain by helping James Harden or the Houston Rockets? The guy has less all star votes than a rookie foreigner. Please tell me how this benefits the league? He's not a well liked player. We aren't a major market.


Having all likable players doesn’t benefit the league, having characters does. A guy with a beard who everybody hates because he baits refs and has a controversial go to move is marketable. I’m not saying I agree that a conspiracy is going on but there is a plausible motive.


James Harden is one of the least marketable star players in the league. Marketable players possess one or more of the following traits:

- Unique physical traits (size, strength, appealing style of play, athleticism)
- Personality
- Champion / winner

James Harden is neither of those things (and frankly, neither is AD). Baiting refs and having a controversial go to move has zero mass market appeal. You need to understand that in the game of marketability, the key is to maximize your appeal to the broadest possible audience. The things you mention get a lot of attention within the relatively small circle of the basketball world, yes, but the where the money is being made is in appealing to people outside of that circle. People want to be Lebron, play like Curry, win like Kobe. Those things drive marketability.


Scoring is marketable. Signature moves are marketable. Being a villain is marketable. Giant beards are marketable(as he has proven with his merchandise). We’re gonna have to agree to disagree on him being one of the least marketable players in the league. A guy on a Kobe type scoring run with a few signature moves and a discernible physical feature is very marketable to people who don’t watch the NBA much. Again, I don’t believe it’s a conspiracy but I don’t think you understand marketing if you don’t see why the league could use a superstar like Harden.


The league could use a superstar like Harden -- that is not in question. What is in question is his marketability. If there is one thing that I would consider myself an expert in -- it's in marketing.

You're missing the point. Anything and everything CAN be marketable. That is not in dispute. But those things you mention are sweeteners, not core attributes. Without the core attributes, the sweeteners don't matter and James Harden doesn't have any of the core attributes.

And here's proof. Last year, James Harden was the scoring champion, the leader of the team with the best record in the league, and the league MVP all at the same time. Quite an accomplishment and not even sure the last time someone did that. There aren't many distinctions left for him to have earned other than champion for last season.

Despite that -- he finished well outside of the top 5 in jersey sales (9th) and behind guys like Kyrie Irving and even Kristaps Porzingis who only played half the season.

And then this year, the guy can't even muster more All-Star votes than Derrick Rose? (I suppose the final tally is still to come but he has trailed Rose the entire time).

When you accomplish, on an individual level, all that Harden has (and he's done much of it simultaneously), but you cannot lead the way or even close in terms of jersey sales or all-star fan votes, that is the very definition of not being marketable.

But keep on with the beard theory if you must.

EDIT: I did not say he was among the least marketable players in the league. I said among the STARS, he is one of the least marketable.


People hate Harden and don’t want to vote for him in all star games. I agree. But 9th in jersey sales last year doesn’t prove he isn’t marketable. Quite the opposite IMO. Westbrook is the only player ahead of him who isn’t foreign and doesn’t have a championship. Westbrook also has the triple double record. These things matter. Adidas didn’t sign him for 200 million cause he isn’t marketable.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:32 pm    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
People hate Harden and don’t want to vote for him in all star games. I agree. But 9th in jersey sales last year doesn’t prove he isn’t marketable. Quite the opposite IMO. Westbrook is the only player ahead of him who isn’t foreign and doesn’t have a championship. Westbrook also has the triple double record. These things matter. Adidas didn’t sign him for 200 million cause he isn’t marketable.


Are we debating if Harden is marketable at all? Of course he is in the literal sense of the word. Larry Nance Jr is marketable by virtue of being among the best few hundred basketball players in the world.

When we use the term "marketable" in marketing, it isn't a question of whether it can LITERALLY be marketed. Anything can be marketed. In simple terms, it speaks to the degree to which you can convince people that something or someone is greater than it is on its own merits.

So in basketball, whether someone is marketable speaks to whether you can squeeze more juice out of a player than he can get by himself. With Harden you can't do that. The data proves it. Because he can lead the league in scoring, be the MVP, have the best record, do all of those things all at the same time, and he still can't crack the top 5 in jersey sales nor get the votes from fans who watch the game.

Now contrast that to a guy like Kobe in 2005-2006 when he scored less points than Harden, wasn't the MVP, didn't lead his team to the best record, and yet, was the #1 in jersey sales. Marketable.

Or Steph Curry. He was 6th in scoring last season, didn't lead his team to the best regular season record, wasn't the MVP, yet, #1 in jersey sales. Marketable.

There's nowhere else for Harden to go in terms of on-court production. That's why he is the least marketable player among the star players.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:40 pm    Post subject:

Bballguru5000 wrote:
They call everything on defenders when they are guarding Harden...in the regular season.

In the playoffs, they allow you to play more aggressively, and this is why Harden struggles in the post season. He can't get away with it as much, so he gets frustrated and it gets into his head. He's that regular season guy.


People keep saying this, but is it true? In seven years with the Rockets, Harden has averaged 10.2 FTA in the regular season and 9.5 in the playoffs. It's true that he averaged 7.8 FTA in the playoffs last season, but he averaged 28.6 points and took his team to Game 7 of the Western Conference Finals against the Warriors. I'm not sure that this narrative holds up.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:47 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Bballguru5000 wrote:
They call everything on defenders when they are guarding Harden...in the regular season.

In the playoffs, they allow you to play more aggressively, and this is why Harden struggles in the post season. He can't get away with it as much, so he gets frustrated and it gets into his head. He's that regular season guy.


People keep saying this, but is it true? In seven years with the Rockets, Harden has averaged 10.2 FTA in the regular season and 9.5 in the playoffs. It's true that he averaged 7.8 FTA in the playoffs last season, but he averaged 28.6 points and took his team to Game 7 of the Western Conference Finals against the Warriors. I'm not sure that this narrative holds up.


Even if what he was saying was true, it makes no sense. What would be the point of force feeding the Harden narrative ONLY in the regular season?!

It's like we'll make up ANYTHING to avoid having to admit that Harden just manipulates how calls are made to his advantage.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:12 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Bballguru5000 wrote:
They call everything on defenders when they are guarding Harden...in the regular season.

In the playoffs, they allow you to play more aggressively, and this is why Harden struggles in the post season. He can't get away with it as much, so he gets frustrated and it gets into his head. He's that regular season guy.


People keep saying this, but is it true? In seven years with the Rockets, Harden has averaged 10.2 FTA in the regular season and 9.5 in the playoffs. It's true that he averaged 7.8 FTA in the playoffs last season, but he averaged 28.6 points and took his team to Game 7 of the Western Conference Finals against the Warriors. I'm not sure that this narrative holds up.


It's not. Its just another faulty narrative that has gotten popular, similar to him constantly traveling on a move the rulebook, refs and league say is legal.
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