Ethiopian Airlines crash is second disaster involving Boeing 737 MAX 8 in months
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jodeke
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:31 am    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
The technology is still bad in the 21st century.. unbelievable

Is it technology or inferior materials and short cuts in building?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:45 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Inspector Gadget wrote:
The technology is still bad in the 21st century.. unbelievable

Is it technology or inferior materials and short cuts in building?


The planes are all grounded now.
Anyways, as long as humans are involved in creating these things, it doesn't matter what year it is.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:51 am    Post subject:

For people who have to fly:

How to find out if you're flying on a Boeing 737 Max
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:58 am    Post subject:

loslakersss wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Rachel went over this on her show last night.

To sum up:

Boeing figured out they needed a software fix late last year and were negotiating with FAA regarding implementation.

When the Trump government shutdown happened, the software fix went on hold.

Boeing executive is buddies with Trump down at Mar-A-Lago and lobbied him for support for the plane.

Boeing is now thinking software fix will be ready by the end of April. In the mean time people are free to die in plane crashes.

Even though FAA knows all this and the rest of world has grounded planes, FAA decides to do nothing.

Thanks Trump voters.


Wouldn't this be on Boeing just as much, if not more than Trump? They're the ones who know the issue, they should have put some sort of recall on the planes letting the airlines know not to fly them until the software was fixed. It seems like they were awfully cavalier about this, along with the FAA.


Yes, you can't blame Trump or his supporters for this. You have to point the finger at Boeing, and at the FAA if it were this serious.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:00 am    Post subject:

loslakersss wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Rachel went over this on her show last night.

To sum up:

Boeing figured out they needed a software fix late last year and were negotiating with FAA regarding implementation.

When the Trump government shutdown happened, the software fix went on hold.

Boeing executive is buddies with Trump down at Mar-A-Lago and lobbied him for support for the plane.

Boeing is now thinking software fix will be ready by the end of April. In the mean time people are free to die in plane crashes.

Even though FAA knows all this and the rest of world has grounded planes, FAA decides to do nothing.

Thanks Trump voters.


Wouldn't this be on Boeing just as much, if not more than Trump? They're the ones who know the issue, they should have put some sort of recall on the planes letting the airlines know not to fly them until the software was fixed. It seems like they were awfully cavalier about this, along with the FAA.


The reason why we have the FAA (and other governmental oversight agencies) is because we don't trust corporations to police themselves. But Trump has appointed industry cronies in all positions of oversight throughout all governmental agencies. Instead of protecting the public first, they are protecting the industry and Trump's billionaire buddies.

But yes, Boeing is at fault. And FAA is at fault. And Trump is triply at fault for 1) appointing cronies, 2) responsible for government shutdown, 3) protecting billionaire Boeing buddy instead of public by going along with what they want and not letting FAA do it's job.

I know this isn't the politics thread but here we are.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:07 am    Post subject:

Surfitall wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Rachel went over this on her show last night.

To sum up:

Boeing figured out they needed a software fix late last year and were negotiating with FAA regarding implementation.

When the Trump government shutdown happened, the software fix went on hold.

Boeing executive is buddies with Trump down at Mar-A-Lago and lobbied him for support for the plane.

Boeing is now thinking software fix will be ready by the end of April. In the mean time people are free to die in plane crashes.

Even though FAA knows all this and the rest of world has grounded planes, FAA decides to do nothing.

Thanks Trump voters.


Wouldn't this be on Boeing just as much, if not more than Trump? They're the ones who know the issue, they should have put some sort of recall on the planes letting the airlines know not to fly them until the software was fixed. It seems like they were awfully cavalier about this, along with the FAA.


Yes, you can't blame Trump or his supporters for this. You have to point the finger at Boeing, and at the FAA if it were this serious.


I suggest you watch the Rachel Maddow segment where she lays it all out. This is in Trump's lap as much as Boeing and FAA. Trump's FAA ignored the urgency of the software glitch issue and knew during the government shutdown that more planes might crash because the software fix was being delayed directly due to Trump's shutdown. They told no one. They warned no one. Because Boeing executives flew down to Mar-A-Lago to golf with Trump and asked him to not press Boeing.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:10 am    Post subject:

They were finally pressured into grounding all 737 Max planes but Boeing still expresses complete confidence in the planes. ::rollseye::

I'm sure that's a comfort to the 200 people who died the other day.

I hope they get sued.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:20 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
They were finally pressured into grounding all 737 Max planes but Boeing still expresses complete confidence in the planes. ::rollseye::

I'm sure that's a comfort to the 200 people who died the other day.

I hope they get sued.


Trump announces FAA grounding all Boeing 737 MAX 8 and MAX 9 planes in US

LINK

Quote:
Meanwhile, Ethiopia said it would transport the “black boxes” from Ethiopian Airlines flight 302 to another country, a decision that would speed up a delay in the analysis of critical flight data that could help explain the second deadly crash of a Boeing 737 MAX 8 plane in just five months.

Ethiopian officials said the country doesn't have the technology required to analyze the black boxes -- the flight data and cockpit voice recorders -- which hold key information on how and why the plane crashed on Sunday, killing all 157 people on board, ABC News Chief National Correspondent Matt Gutman reported from Ethiopia’s capital of Addis Ababa.

The Ethiopian Civil Aviation Authority was expected to announce which country the recordings will be sent to soon, three days after Sunday's crash.


As long as the country isn't Russia.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:42 am    Post subject:

Under trump we've become followers in aviation ...no longer leaders in the sky ✈️
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:50 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
Rachel went over this on her show last night.

To sum up:

Boeing figured out they needed a software fix late last year and were negotiating with FAA regarding implementation.

When the Trump government shutdown happened, the software fix went on hold.

Boeing executive is buddies with Trump down at Mar-A-Lago and lobbied him for support for the plane.

Boeing is now thinking software fix will be ready by the end of April. In the mean time people are free to die in plane crashes.

Even though FAA knows all this and the rest of world has grounded planes, FAA decides to do nothing.

Thanks Trump voters.


FAA grounded these planes.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:14 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Rachel went over this on her show last night.

To sum up:

Boeing figured out they needed a software fix late last year and were negotiating with FAA regarding implementation.

When the Trump government shutdown happened, the software fix went on hold.

Boeing executive is buddies with Trump down at Mar-A-Lago and lobbied him for support for the plane.

Boeing is now thinking software fix will be ready by the end of April. In the mean time people are free to die in plane crashes.

Even though FAA knows all this and the rest of world has grounded planes, FAA decides to do nothing.

Thanks Trump voters.


FAA grounded these planes.


^^^^

Trump taking credit for something he had to do.
LINK
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Last edited by jodeke on Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ChefLinda
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:22 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Rachel went over this on her show last night.

To sum up:

Boeing figured out they needed a software fix late last year and were negotiating with FAA regarding implementation.

When the Trump government shutdown happened, the software fix went on hold.

Boeing executive is buddies with Trump down at Mar-A-Lago and lobbied him for support for the plane.

Boeing is now thinking software fix will be ready by the end of April. In the mean time people are free to die in plane crashes.

Even though FAA knows all this and the rest of world has grounded planes, FAA decides to do nothing.

Thanks Trump voters.


FAA grounded these planes.


Yes, 24 hours after the rest of the world and 24 hours after saying they would not ground planes. Pressure was put on them by the public and the press, so they finally did what they should have done yesterday.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:26 pm    Post subject:

Luckily, there aren't huge numbers of these planes in the major airlines...So, while there will be cancelled/rescheduled flights, it won't be a catastrophe.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:54 am    Post subject:

Washington Post: At tense meeting with Boeing executives, pilots fumed about being left in dark on plane software


Quote:
Boeing executives sat down last November with pilots at the Allied Pilots Association’s low-slung brick headquarters in Fort Worth.

Tensions were running high. One of Boeing’s new jets — hailed by the company as an even more reliable version of Boeing’s stalwart 737 — had crashed into the ocean off Indonesia shortly after takeoff, killing all 189 people on board the flight operated by Lion Air.

After the crash, Boeing issued a bulletin disclosing that this line of planes, known as the 737 Max 8, was equipped with a new type of software as part of the plane’s automated functions. Some pilots were furious that they were not told about the new software when the plane was unveiled.

Dennis Tajer, a 737 captain who attended the meeting with Boeing executives, recalled, “They said, ‘Look, we didn’t include it because we have a lot of people flying on this and we didn’t want to inundate you with information.’ ”


Quote:
“At that meeting, they told us that a software update would probably be forthcoming in the near future,” Weaks said.

But no update came in the following two months.


Quote:
“I think it is unconscionable that a manufacturer, the FAA, and the airlines would have pilots flying an airplane without adequately training, or even providing available resources and sufficient documentation to understand the highly complex systems that differentiate this aircraft from prior models,” one pilot wrote in November. “The fact that this airplane requires such jury rigging to fly is a red flag. Now we know the systems employed are error prone — even if the pilots aren’t sure what those systems are, what redundancies are in place, and failure modes.”
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:15 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Rachel went over this on her show last night.

To sum up:

Boeing figured out they needed a software fix late last year and were negotiating with FAA regarding implementation.

When the Trump government shutdown happened, the software fix went on hold.

Boeing executive is buddies with Trump down at Mar-A-Lago and lobbied him for support for the plane.

Boeing is now thinking software fix will be ready by the end of April. In the mean time people are free to die in plane crashes.

Even though FAA knows all this and the rest of world has grounded planes, FAA decides to do nothing.

Thanks Trump voters.


FAA grounded these planes.


^^^^

Trump taking credit for something he had to do.
LINK


Is it fair to say that Trump was leading from behind on this issue?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:41 pm    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
jodeke wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Rachel went over this on her show last night.

To sum up:

Boeing figured out they needed a software fix late last year and were negotiating with FAA regarding implementation.

When the Trump government shutdown happened, the software fix went on hold.

Boeing executive is buddies with Trump down at Mar-A-Lago and lobbied him for support for the plane.

Boeing is now thinking software fix will be ready by the end of April. In the mean time people are free to die in plane crashes.

Even though FAA knows all this and the rest of world has grounded planes, FAA decides to do nothing.

Thanks Trump voters.


FAA grounded these planes.


^^^^

Trump taking credit for something he had to do.
LINK


Is it fair to say that Trump was leading from behind on this issue?


he didn't lead at all
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:34 pm    Post subject:

https://imgur.com/gallery/4llOkKn
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:25 am    Post subject:

Relatives and Mourners make their way to the crash site
Some metal scraps survived
But it seems as though
The scene is ashes

Nothing to be found to retrieve

https://www.the-star.co.ke/amp/news/2019-03-15-families-shock-as-no-bodies-to-bury-just-ashes/
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:43 am    Post subject:

Extra pilot averted disaster on previous Boeing 737 Max 8 flight - report

(CNN)An off-duty pilot in the cockpit of a Boeing 737 Max 8 jet jumped in to help crew disable a malfunctioning flight-control system as it experienced difficulties in October, according to Bloomberg.

The next day, with a different crew, the same plane crashed into the sea off Jakarta, killing all 189 people on board.

On doomed Lion Air Flight 610, pilots searched in a handbook for a way to stop the plane from nosediving, according to an exclusive Reuters report.

Reuters cites the information from three people with knowledge of the contents of the cockpit voice recorder that has never been made public.

The revelation that an extra pilot saved the plane the day before the crash has never been reported before, according to Bloomberg.

Aviation analyst and editor in chief of Airlineratings.com, Geoffrey Thomas, said it was not unusual for off-duty pilots, known as dead heads, to fly in the cockpit of planes.

"It could well be that the flight is full and he needs to get back to Jakarta -- so as long as he is authorized to do so -- then it's absolutely fine," he said.
However, the presence of the third pilot in the cockpit did not appear in the National Transportation Safety Committee's (KNKT) November preliminary report into the crash.

Thomas said this fact should have been reported "as you could argue that the pilot was a distraction or an assistance," he said.

CNN contacted Lion Air Group Captain Daniel Putut for comment and he directed questions to the KNKT.

Soerjanto Tjahjono, the head of KNKT told CNN on Wednesday they were not aware of the details in the Bloomberg report. CNN continues to reach out to more officials at the KNKT.

Investigators said the jet experienced problems on its last four flights -- including, crucially, the flight that crashed, according to Tjahjono.
Indonesian authorities confirmed that the plane's angle of attack (AOA) sensor was replaced after a flight from Manado, in North Sulawesi to Denpasar, Bali on October 28. The Boeing 737 Max 8 then made another flight to Jakarta that same day, and the pilots reported further problems.
The AOA sensors send information to the plane's computers about the angle of the plane's nose relative to the airflow over and under the wings to help determine whether the plane is about to stall.

Software installed on Boeing's 737 Max 8 planes, called the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS), automatically lowers the nose of the plane when it receives information from the AOA sensors that the aircraft is flying too slowly or steeply, and at risk of stalling.


A preliminary KNKT report said the crew of Air Lion Flight 610 struggled to override the plane's automatic systems in the minutes before it plunged into the ocean. The system pulled the plane's nose down more than two dozen times, the report said.

The report said the MCAS system was responding to incorrect data transmitted by an AOA sensor. A different flight crew experienced the same issue on a flight from Denpasar to Jakarta the previous day, but had turned off the MCAS and took manual control of the plane, the report said.

Once in Jakarta, a Lion Air technician checked the plane again and gave it the green light to fly on its final flight, from Jakarta to Pangkal Pinang on the Indonesian island of Bangka.

The jet crashed 13 minutes after takeoff.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:49 am    Post subject:

737 pilots trained for Max 8 with short online course

(CNN)Pilots transitioning to the Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft from older 737 models were given a short, self-administered online course that made no mention of a new system now at the center of two crash investigations, pilots' unions spokesmen for two American carriers told CNN.

Pilots of Southwest Airlines and American Airlines took courses -- lasting between 56 minutes and three hours -- that highlighted differences between the Max 8 and older 737s, but did not explain the new maneuvering characteristics augmentation system, know as MCAS, the spokesmen said.

"The course was not instructor-led. It was self-administered," said Mike Trevino, a spokesman for the union that represents pilots of Southwest Airlines. The set course took pilots approximately three hours to complete, Trevino said. The 8,500 pilots of Southwest Airlines exclusively fly the 737, and it is the world's largest operator of the 737 Max 8, employing 34 of the aircraft.

"MCAS was installed in the aircraft and Boeing didn't disclose that to the pilots," said Trevino, while adding that Southwest pilots are experienced with 737s. "It's not flying a whole new aircraft. It's still a 737."

Hands-on experience needed

In the wake of the fatal crashes, some pilots are demanding additional training on the 737 Max series aircraft, in the form of both ground school and flight simulator time.

"This is ridiculous," said Captain Dennis Tajer, a representative of the Allied Pilots Association, which represents 15,000 American Airlines pilots. "If you're going to have equipment on the airplane that we didn't know about, and we're going to be responsible for battling it if it fails, then we need to have hands-on experience."

The self-administered transition course for American Airlines pilots was a 56-minute online course, Tajer said, which he completed on his iPad. It was broken up into four broad sections, including a general description of changes to the aircraft, its engines, and its instrument panel. But an explanation or even an acknowledgement of the MCAS system was again missing, Tajer said.

"(The transition course) usually works. It works for us. We have pilots who have a lot of experience. When I need to do a little more study, I know where to go. And if I was to go to that place, the MCAS wasn't even there."

Boeing develops the courses with each individual airline, which is why Southwest's transition training course was longer than the course for American Airlines. But Trevino and Tajer say both failed to mention or explain the MCAS system.

On November 27, one month after the Lion Air crash, the American Airlines pilots' union met with Boeing representatives in Texas to convey "serious concerns about the issues raised by the Lion Air 737 Max accident and ongoing investigation," according to a statement from the union.

Part of that discussion focused on the software that triggers the MCAS system, Tajer said.

Because the FAA certified the 737 Max series to be flown without requiring simulator time, Tajer said it will be difficult to demand simulator experience before flying the aircraft. American Airlines is working to have 737 Max simulators in place by the end of the year, added Tajer. In the interim, he noted that American Airlines pilots have received intense ground school on the MCAS following the Lion Air crash.

In response to October's Lion Air crash, Boeing has developed a software patch and a pilot training program to address the issues from the fatal flight, the Federal Aviation Administration said in an airworthiness directive Wednesday.

"The FAA's ongoing review of this software installation and training is an agency priority, as will be the roll-out of any software, training, or other measures to operators of the 737 MAX," the directive said.

Potential cause of confusion

Neil Hansford, an Australian aviation safety consultant who runs Strategic Aviation Solutions, condemned Boeing and the FAA for allowing such simplified courses. Even with the similarities between the 737 Max 8 and previous models of the popular airline, Hansford says aviation regulators should require ground school, at least 20 hours in a simulator, and a series of check rides to establish proficiency in the new aircraft.

ransition training through courses and bulletins has been permitted before, says John Cox, a veteran airline pilot and aviation safety expert who runs Safety Operating Systems. In cases where a pilot was moving between different models of the same or very similar aircraft, such courses could suffice without additional check rides, he said. For example, a pilot permitted to fly certain models of 757 is also qualified to fly certain models of the larger 767. But Cox says any new system should definitely be explained in transition courses.

"In retrospect, knowing what we know now about the MCAS, I think that everybody or a significant number of people would have said additional training would have been a good idea," Cox said.

Cox points to the similarities between two systems on board a 737 Max 8 series as a potential cause of confusion for pilots: The MCAS and runaway trim. Both can cause an airplane to nose down, but Cox says 737 pilots know how to deal with a runaway trim from years of experience.

The MCAS -- new to the 737 Max series -- is a less familiar system to pilots. In an emergency situation, with multiple in-flight warnings, Cox says it could be difficult to correctly diagnose the MCAS as the problematic system.
"I think everybody has been surprised at the possibilities of how MCAS could cause a problem," Cox said. "I don't think Boeing computed it that way. I don't think their analysis showed that this was likely, and I think they convinced themselves and the FAA that this was a minor change from a pilot's standpoint."

The fallout from the two fatal crashes has shaken some pilots' trust in Boeing and the FAA.

"If the FAA says it's safe, Boeing says it's safe, our airlines say it's safe, we are the ones who have to stand there with them and say we agree... or we don't agree," said Tajer. "We want to say yes, but we will not be forced to say yes. I'm on that airplane as the last line of defense for our passengers."
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:56 am    Post subject:

Indonesia's Garuda is canceling its $4.9 billion order for the Boeing 737 Max

Hong Kong (CNN Business)Indonesian airline Garuda said Friday that it's canceling a multibillion-dollar order for Boeing's 737 Max 8 passenger jet after the plane was involved in two deadly crashes in less than five months.

"Our passengers have lost confidence to fly with the Max 8," Garuda spokesperson Ikhsan Rosan told CNN.
The Indonesian carrier ordered 50 of the planes in 2014 for $4.9 billion. It has taken delivery of one of them but has now sent a letter to Boeing (BA) saying it no longer wants to receive the remaining jets on order, Ikhsan said. It's the first airline to say it's canceling a 737 Max 8 order.

CNN reported earlier this week that US Justice Department prosecutors have issued multiple subpoenas as part of an investigation into Boeing's certification from the US Federal Aviation Administration and the company's marketing of 737 Max planes.


Justice Department issues subpoenas in criminal investigation of Boeing
The criminal investigation, which is in its early stages, began after a 737 Max aircraft operated by Indonesia's Lion Air crashed in October, killing all 189 people aboard.

The 737 Max jets are by far the most important product for the company. It has orders for nearly 5,000 of the aircraft, enough to keep production lines operating for years to come.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:17 am    Post subject:

So, Boeing withheld a ?safety? Feature/software unless you pay extra?

Is boeing liable for these deaths? Lawyers?
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