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ChickenStu
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:47 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
I am now an Elizabeth Warren stan account: https://twitter.com/ewarren/status/1120498568622739459


I saw some of her Town Hall and thought she did better than Harris did. I liked Buttigieg, too. When asked about Bernie Sanders' ridiculous idea that people in prison should be allowed to vote (not talking about ex-cons who are out of prison, but people who are actually IN prison), Harris gave one of her "I think we should have that conversation" answers, while Buttigieg simply answered no, you give up your freedom when you are paying your debt to society.


Freedom yes, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t vote.


Yeah, we don't agree on that, and I guess nothing more needs to be said.
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DaMuleRules
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:54 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
I am now an Elizabeth Warren stan account: https://twitter.com/ewarren/status/1120498568622739459


I saw some of her Town Hall and thought she did better than Harris did. I liked Buttigieg, too. When asked about Bernie Sanders' ridiculous idea that people in prison should be allowed to vote (not talking about ex-cons who are out of prison, but people who are actually IN prison), Harris gave one of her "I think we should have that conversation" answers, while Buttigieg simply answered no, you give up your freedom when you are paying your debt to society.


Freedom yes, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t vote.


Exactly. As a person sentenced to prison, you are serving your temporary punishment for a crime. You still have a future and you haven't surrendered your citizenship, so there is no reason you shouldn't have a voice in the voting that will affect your future the same way any other citizen does.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:55 pm    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
I am now an Elizabeth Warren stan account: https://twitter.com/ewarren/status/1120498568622739459


I saw some of her Town Hall and thought she did better than Harris did. I liked Buttigieg, too. When asked about Bernie Sanders' ridiculous idea that people in prison should be allowed to vote (not talking about ex-cons who are out of prison, but people who are actually IN prison), Harris gave one of her "I think we should have that conversation" answers, while Buttigieg simply answered no, you give up your freedom when you are paying your debt to society.


Freedom yes, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t vote.


Yeah, we don't agree on that, and I guess nothing more needs to be said.


Fair enough. Not sure why it can’t be discussed, but we can leave it there.
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DaMuleRules
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:09 pm    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
[
Yeah, we don't agree on that, and I guess nothing more needs to be said.


You are awfully quick to just dismiss discussion of a meaningful issue.

I'd be interested to hear why.

A person in prison has not only already suffered the loss of their personal freedom, but more than likely a number of other consequences as well from the personal to the financial in possibly crippling ways.

But that person hasn't been erased as a citizen. Any family they have hasn't disappeared. For example, there's no legitimate reason that an incarcerated father should not have the right to vote on issues that affect the future of their child who is not incarcerated.

There are already sufficient rights removed while a person in incarcerated. We can't pretend that incarceration is about reform if we aren't going to give the potentially "reformed" a say in the future that will not only effect them, but their family and society itself.
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ChickenStu
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:22 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
[
Yeah, we don't agree on that, and I guess nothing more needs to be said.


You are awfully quick to just dismiss discussion of a meaningful issue.

I'd be interested to hear why.

A person in prison has not only already suffered the loss of their personal freedom, but more than likely a number of other consequences as well from the personal to the financial in possibly crippling ways.

But that person hasn't been erased as a citizen. Any family they have hasn't disappeared. For example, there's no legitimate reason that an incarcerated father should not have the right to vote on issues that affect the future of their child who is not incarcerated.

There are already sufficient rights removed while a person in incarcerated. We can't pretend that incarceration is about reform if we aren't going to give the potentially "reformed" a say in the future that will not only effect them, but their family and society itself.


My intention wasn't to be dismissive. I suspected what Omar's rationale would be, as well as others who agree with him. I did use the word "ridiculous" earlier, and that was probably too harsh of a word to use. I do acknowledge the rationale in the thought process. I just don't agree with it, and so, for me, I guess I didn't feel any other discussion needed to be added.

I believe that if you are serving punishment for a crime in prison, you do not deserve to vote. Once you've served your debt to society, 100%, you deserve to vote again. That's my view.

One thing I do feel confident in saying is that if the Democratic standard-bearer is going to argue for convicts in prison to be able to vote, this is a losing issue for Democrats in a general election.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:26 pm    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
I am now an Elizabeth Warren stan account: https://twitter.com/ewarren/status/1120498568622739459


I saw some of her Town Hall and thought she did better than Harris did. I liked Buttigieg, too. When asked about Bernie Sanders' ridiculous idea that people in prison should be allowed to vote (not talking about ex-cons who are out of prison, but people who are actually IN prison), Harris gave one of her "I think we should have that conversation" answers, while Buttigieg simply answered no, you give up your freedom when you are paying your debt to society.

I believe people in prison should vote.
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:29 pm    Post subject:

Little known factoid: Vermont and Maine let prisoners vote, and have thus far not suffered because of that.
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ChickenStu
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:34 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Little known factoid: Vermont and Maine let prisoners vote, and have thus far not suffered because of that.


I don't think that society would come crashing down (any more than it already is) if prisoners were allowed to vote. I simply don't think it's the right thing to do.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:37 pm    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Little known factoid: Vermont and Maine let prisoners vote, and have thus far not suffered because of that.


I don't think that society would come crashing down (any more than it already is) if prisoners were allowed to vote. I simply don't think it's the right thing to do.


Would it change your mind if you knew that most such disenfranchisement laws, in concert with targeted prosecution and sentencing, have their roots in suppressing the votes of targeted races/ethnicities?
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ChickenStu
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:51 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Little known factoid: Vermont and Maine let prisoners vote, and have thus far not suffered because of that.


I don't think that society would come crashing down (any more than it already is) if prisoners were allowed to vote. I simply don't think it's the right thing to do.


Would it change your mind if you knew that most such disenfranchisement laws, in concert with targeted prosecution and sentencing, have their roots in suppressing the votes of targeted races/ethnicities?


No, I don't think so. But I do, of course, understand that there's a deep-rooted racial problem in the justice system in general. Fundamentally, though, I don't believe that rapists in prison, Bill Cosby, the Boston bomber, etc, should still maintain the right to vote, regardless of what they look like or where they come from. Even in saying that, I think about another issue: affirmative action. Fundamentally, I don't believe anyone should get a position in life over another position based on their race. However, the issue certainly isn't that simple, and I realized that as a student at UCLA and just as I aged in general. (And my position on affirmative action changed pretty quickly back in the day.) So I see what you're getting at, that the issue may not be as simple as I'm making it out to be.

Something worth having a conversation about. See, I just brought this back to one of Kamala's favorite phrases.


Last edited by ChickenStu on Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:52 pm    Post subject:

Good stuff.
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Aussiesuede
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:07 pm    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Little known factoid: Vermont and Maine let prisoners vote, and have thus far not suffered because of that.


I don't think that society would come crashing down (any more than it already is) if prisoners were allowed to vote. I simply don't think it's the right thing to do.


In a representative democracy, why shouldn't all members have a voice? Australia was a democracy of mostly convicts. Had they not been given equal voice, we'd not have the former criminal colony as a successful country today. Today, felons have universal suffrage in Australia at most 7 years after they've served their time. If their sentence is under 3 years, they have the right to vote from prison.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:32 pm    Post subject:

Fox News had Lucy Flores on in an attempt to derail Biden for 2020.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:33 am    Post subject:

From Eugene Robinson:

“The conventional wisdom is that Republicans made a political error by impeaching Clinton. But they did win the White House in 2000 and go on to dominate Congress for most of President George W. Bush’s tenure. If impeachment was a mistake, it wasn’t a very costly one.”

Good point; one that I had not considered.

Gettin' there.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:37 am    Post subject:

PartyMan wrote:
Fox News had Lucy Flores on in an attempt to derail Biden for 2020.


If they really wanted to get on a roll, there are 23 other women, with worse stories, they should have on.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:46 am    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Little known factoid: Vermont and Maine let prisoners vote, and have thus far not suffered because of that.


I don't think that society would come crashing down (any more than it already is) if prisoners were allowed to vote. I simply don't think it's the right thing to do.


Would it change your mind if you knew that most such disenfranchisement laws, in concert with targeted prosecution and sentencing, have their roots in suppressing the votes of targeted races/ethnicities?


No, I don't think so. But I do, of course, understand that there's a deep-rooted racial problem in the justice system in general. Fundamentally, though, I don't believe that rapists in prison, Bill Cosby, the Boston bomber, etc, should still maintain the right to vote, regardless of what they look like or where they come from. Even in saying that, I think about another issue: affirmative action. Fundamentally, I don't believe anyone should get a position in life over another position based on their race. However, the issue certainly isn't that simple, and I realized that as a student at UCLA and just as I aged in general. (And my position on affirmative action changed pretty quickly back in the day.) So I see what you're getting at, that the issue may not be as simple as I'm making it out to be.

Something worth having a conversation about. See, I just brought this back to one of Kamala's favorite phrases.

The only limitations put on prisoners' enfranchisement I could ken would be votes for local law enforcement/prosecutorial/judicial positions. But what do I care if Bill Cosby votes for Trump outside of the dark humor of it all? Let Bill Cosby vote.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:30 am    Post subject:

I'm ambivalent on the voting issue. On one hand, a prisoner is segregated from society, and that's one of the things they are segregated from (which no longer applies when they are released, which is why I favor ex-felons' voting rights being restored).

OTOH, when you go to prison you forfeit your freedom but not your rights. To the extent that voting is an inalienable right, I'd favor prisoners being able to vote. But that's the part about which I'm still ambivalent -- whether it's an INALIENABLE right.
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vanexelent
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:55 am    Post subject:

What safe guards are put in place inside prison walls to make sure Republicans who run these institutions don't doctor up the votes?

I'd also be interested to see how many prisoners have voted prior to them being put in prison or are even registered to vote.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:02 am    Post subject:

I think it is one of the most, if not the most, intrinsic rights of citizenship.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:34 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
I think it is one of the most, if not the most, intrinsic rights of citizenship.


Precisely. In a representative democracy,all citizens should be represented. I find impossible to restrict a citizens right without first removing his status as a citizen. If you are unwilling to remove his citizenship status, then he should have a voice. So unless they've become stateless, then they retain their citizenship rights. The prescribed penalty for repayment of their crime is restriction of their freedom, not eradication of their rights. State rights to all state members...
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:06 am    Post subject:

Make politicians court the prisoner vote.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:17 am    Post subject:

Fight for US colonies' right to vote if we gonna fight for prisoners' right to vote
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:52 am    Post subject:

Save The Whales
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vanexelent
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:52 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Make politicians court the prisoner vote.


You think they want to see another court?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:58 am    Post subject:

Aussiesuede wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
I think it is one of the most, if not the most, intrinsic rights of citizenship.


Precisely. In a representative democracy,all citizens should be represented. I find impossible to restrict a citizens right without first removing his status as a citizen. If you are unwilling to remove his citizenship status, then he should have a voice. So unless they've become stateless, then they retain their citizenship rights. The prescribed penalty for repayment of their crime is restriction of their freedom, not eradication of their rights. State rights to all state members...


Not personally opposed to allowing felons to vote but how do you deal with what jurisdiction they are allowed to vote in? Should they vote in the region that WAS their residence prior to incarceration or the city in which they are incarcerated?

Also some issues with smaller towns that house large prisons where inmates make up a significant percentage of the population. They could run the town like the Rajneeshpurnam did in Oregon lol.
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