AVENGERS: Endgame (4/26) - Beware SPOILERS
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tox
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:15 pm    Post subject:

PLATNUM wrote:
tox wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
tox wrote:
The problem is his ending isn't really an earned conclusion of his storyline. It's not like it's the conclusion of an arc where he sees how happy Tony Stark is and realizes he still wants that with Peggy. It doesn't really tie in with any of the movie's themes. It doesn't fit narratively (it doesn't make sense how the time travel works), it sidelines his relationship with Bucky, and it might even entirely undermine his character (like, is there another Captain America picking up the slack in this timeline or is he just totally abandoning fighting Hydra, rescuing Bucky etc.).


It did make sense and was tied into Tony and Steve's conversation from Age of Ultron. Tony says that maybe he'll pull a page out of Barton's book and build Pepper a farm, start a simple life. He tells Cap he'll get there someday. Cap replies that he's not that guy anymore, wife/kids...the guy that wanted that went in the ice in 1940's. He wanted that with Peggy. So when he is able to go back to 1940's he becomes that guy again.

The timelines and "future" is set. So him fighting Hydra or saving Bucky doesn't change anything in the "main" timeline, it would just create more changes in this alternate reality.

Bucky knew what Steve was gonna do, that's why their goodbye was so long even though Steve was supposed be back in 10 seconds. Either Steve told him or he just knew. That's why he wasn't freaking out when Steve didn't come back via the time jump like Sam and Bruce did.


Eh, the second two things you said are contrivances. If the future is set, what happens to Peggy's husband and children in the original timeline? And if Bucky knew, then tell us on screen. You'd think it'd be an important enough thing to warrant a minute in a 180-minute long movie.


Bucky hugs Cap and tells him he'll miss him when Hulk had just said he'd be back in 5 seconds. I knew at that point he wasn't coming back... well he DID come back.. but he was old as hell and had lived out his life.

OK but the point is not about the plot specifics. It doesn't matter if Cap clearly told Bucky this stuff off camera, because it's still true that the movie minimized their relationship entirely. There was no emotion, not proper culmination of a multi-movie arc. To bring it back to the main point, again, this is why I found the queer reading convincing. (To stress, I don't actually have any personal investment in the Cap-Bucky dynamic as I didn't watch the relevant movies. I'm just taking it as a given that he's crucial to Cap's earlier storyline.)

But in case my point is not clear, imagine if Tony sacrifices himself to stop Thanos... off camera. There are some passing references to his sacrifice during his funeral but we don't see it. It'd obviously be infuriating, but clearly the plot per se hasn't changed: the same story events occur. So what exactly would be infuriating? Well, it's that it'd undercut the culmination of his storyline, both within Endgame and more broadly within MCU. It'd be anticlimactic and robbing fans of actually viewing this really important moment.

Now obviously what they did with Cap's ending isn't anywhere as close to as much of an issue here. But the same point applies. If Bucky is an important person to Cap, then we should wonder why we didn't actually get to see an adequate resolution. Something similar is true of Hulk btw: Banner accepted Hulk off screen, and so he didn't really have a character arc per se. The plot logic of this happening in the intervening 5 years makes sense, but in terms of the audience's emotions it's not satisfying. It's not a surprise that no one has really discussed Hulk in this thread because he basically lacked a storyline entirely (when him un-snapping everyone should've been the culmination of his series-long character arc)
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loslakersss
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 6:57 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
tox wrote:
The problem is his ending isn't really an earned conclusion of his storyline. It's not like it's the conclusion of an arc where he sees how happy Tony Stark is and realizes he still wants that with Peggy. It doesn't really tie in with any of the movie's themes. It doesn't fit narratively (it doesn't make sense how the time travel works), it sidelines his relationship with Bucky, and it might even entirely undermine his character (like, is there another Captain America picking up the slack in this timeline or is he just totally abandoning fighting Hydra, rescuing Bucky etc.).


It did make sense and was tied into Tony and Steve's conversation from Age of Ultron. Tony says that maybe he'll pull a page out of Barton's book and build Pepper a farm, start a simple life. He tells Cap he'll get there someday. Cap replies that he's not that guy anymore, wife/kids...the guy that wanted that went in the ice in 1940's. He wanted that with Peggy. So when he is able to go back to 1940's he becomes that guy again.

The timelines and "future" is set. So him fighting Hydra or saving Bucky doesn't change anything in the "main" timeline, it would just create more changes in this alternate reality.

Bucky knew what Steve was gonna do, that's why their goodbye was so long even though Steve was supposed be back in 10 seconds. Either Steve told him or he just knew. That's why he wasn't freaking out when Steve didn't come back via the time jump like Sam and Bruce did.

Eh, the second two things you said are contrivances. If the future is set, what happens to Peggy's husband and children in the original timeline? And if Bucky knew, then tell us on screen. You'd think it'd be an important enough thing to warrant a minute in a 180-minute long movie.

As for the first point you make, well first it presupposes time travel working how you say (meaning apparently another Steve Rodgers exists who's actually performing the duties of Captain America) which to me is already shaky. But even if I grant you that, the point remains that this moment still warrants some actual narrative engagement. One easy solution would have been for Cap to really admire Tony Stark's quiet family life and maybe even show regret for pulling him into this. And that realization is what makes him go back in time, now that it's an option on the table. But even then you need to address whether he's abandoning his duties and what happens to Peggy's family if he "overwrites" their existence, because those would also weigh on Cap's decision.

No matter how you slice it, his ending was totally half-baked. The most obvious read is that they just needed some way to end his character's involvement in the MCU so they contrived something as to not infringe on Tony's death. But, as the origin of this entire conversation, I thought the queer reading of his storyline was also fairly plausible.


Nothing changes in the original timeline; the past will always remain the same. They quickly explained this with the "back to the future is BS" line as well as the conversation with The Ancient One. Essentially Timeline A is the main timeline and any time he goes back in time to change something, it doesn't change the past of Timeline A but creates an alternate reality in a Timeline B, C, D, etc.

And Cap/Steve is in ice from 1945 - 2011 so he's not doing anything during that time. That's the whole reason Peggy moves on, she thinks he's dead.

Regarding Bucky, the story doesn't always need to spell things out. Some things are better left for the viewer to figure out on their own; these are the types of things that 1. make re-watches better and 2. trust the audience that they don't need their hand held for everything.
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tox
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:11 pm    Post subject:

Agree to disagree, neither explanation cuts it for me and I think we're just talking around each other at this point.
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 8:43 am    Post subject:

After reading the director's interviews, the time travel aspect in this movie actually makes more sense than in other films like Back to the Future, Terminator.

When you go back in time, what you change in the past does NOT affect your present. In Back to the Future, changing the past makes Marty go all transparent and disappear in the present. In Endgame, changing the past just creates an alternate branch separate from your main timeline.

When Steve from the main timeline goes back and gets with Peggy, he created an alternate branch separate from the main timeline he was in. When he traveled back to the present to give Sam his shield he actually had to jump back to the main timeline.
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