3 player race for 2nd of this era

 
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KeepItRealOrElse
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:12 am    Post subject: 3 player race for 2nd of this era

If Kawhi wins a 2nd ring, his 2nd finals MVP... that's as many as KD. I believe the guy who wins the next ring will clearly separate themselves as the 2nd best player of this era, behind Lebron. Steph also has the same opportunity, he has 1 more ring right now, but he isn't a guy who has raised his level of play in the playoffs and cemented his legacy above a KD or Kawhi.

agree that this is a pretty interesting race? and the next ring puts the player ahead of the rest?
Prior to a few years ago, I think the consensus was that KD would be this guy - as a super skilled, rare historic scorer.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:41 pm    Post subject:

^
I'd say this is recency bias. Durant has been a star for about 10 years, where Leonard has really only been a star for about 3 years, so he's a way from catching up with Durant.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:16 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
^
I'd say this is recency bias. Durant has been a star for about 10 years, where Leonard has really only been a star for about 3 years, so he's a way from catching up with Durant.


You’re not wrong... I’d still put KD ahead of Kawhi at the moment in an all time rank, though . I just think 1 more ring is a real tipping point.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:18 pm    Post subject:

Whether it's fair or not, a lot of people will discount Durant because he went to a team that had just won 73 games and then gotten shocked in the Finals. He nudged them over the line the next two years (and might yet do it again this year), but it's not like he was carrying them on his back. He might wind up being regarded as the second best player of this era (basically the post-Lakers years). Yet the gap is so great that it would be a hollow honor. Twenty years from now, if I'm still alive, it won't surprise me if Curry and Leonard sometimes get ranked ahead of Durant.

To address your specific point, if the Raptors hang on and win the series, I think it would give Leonard a shot at the pantheon of great players. From a legacy perspective, it would rank with Lebron's win with the Cavs, Hakeem's titles with the Rockets, Walton's title with the Blazers, and Kareem's title with the Bucks -- a great player in his prime carrying a non-glamorous team to a title. Even a threepeat for the Warriors would not give Durant that sort of luster.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:48 am    Post subject:

[quote="Aeneas Hunter"]Whether it's fair or not, a lot of people will discount Durant because he went to a team that had just won 73 games and then gotten shocked in the Finals. He nudged them over the line the next two years (and might yet do it again this year), but it's not like he was carrying them on his back. He might wind up being regarded as the second best player of this era (basically the post-Lakers years). Yet the gap is so great that it would be a hollow honor. Twenty years from now, if I'm still alive, it won't surprise me if Curry and Leonard sometimes get ranked ahead of Durant.

Beyond that, I don't think many care who was the second best in an era unless there is a debate which guy is #1 (a la Wilt and Russell).
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:38 am    Post subject:

[quote="activeverb"]
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Whether it's fair or not, a lot of people will discount Durant because he went to a team that had just won 73 games and then gotten shocked in the Finals. He nudged them over the line the next two years (and might yet do it again this year), but it's not like he was carrying them on his back. He might wind up being regarded as the second best player of this era (basically the post-Lakers years). Yet the gap is so great that it would be a hollow honor. Twenty years from now, if I'm still alive, it won't surprise me if Curry and Leonard sometimes get ranked ahead of Durant.

Beyond that, I don't think many care who was the second best in an era unless there is a debate which guy is #1 (a la Wilt and Russell).


good point as well... I don't really think about who was #2 in MJ's era(90s) - maybe that's because he's completely in his own stratosphere though..If one of these 3 players wins another ring(non Warriors superteam) then they aren't worlds away from Lebron in terms of accomplishments
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:04 pm    Post subject:

I kinda hope KD stays so we can get a KD/KL rematch next year. Both at full strength.
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JUST-MING
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:46 pm    Post subject:

All of Lebron’s rings have come from stacking the deck. You can’t “discount” KD’s rings and not do the same for LBJ’s rings.

Last edited by JUST-MING on Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:47 pm    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Whether it's fair or not, a lot of people will discount Durant because he went to a team that had just won 73 games and then gotten shocked in the Finals. He nudged them over the line the next two years (and might yet do it again this year), but it's not like he was carrying them on his back. He might wind up being regarded as the second best player of this era (basically the post-Lakers years). Yet the gap is so great that it would be a hollow honor. Twenty years from now, if I'm still alive, it won't surprise me if Curry and Leonard sometimes get ranked ahead of Durant.

To address your specific point, if the Raptors hang on and win the series, I think it would give Leonard a shot at the pantheon of great players. From a legacy perspective, it would rank with Lebron's win with the Cavs, Hakeem's titles with the Rockets, Walton's title with the Blazers, and Kareem's title with the Bucks -- a great player in his prime carrying a non-glamorous team to a title. Even a threepeat for the Warriors would not give Durant that sort of luster.


All of Lebron’s rings have come from stacking the deck. You can’t “discount” KD’s rings and not do the same for LBJ’s rings.


DWade was legit old for one of Bron's rings though
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:40 pm    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
All of Lebron’s rings have come from stacking the deck. You can’t “discount” KD’s rings and not do the same for LBJ’s rings.


Last time I checked, LeBron has never joined a 73 win team, or joined a team that beat him in the conference finals, or joined an already assembled team that won a ring without him.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:49 am    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
All of Lebron’s rings have come from stacking the deck. You can’t “discount” KD’s rings and not do the same for LBJ’s rings.


While he freely went back to CLE and was clearly in charge of the trades, I don't think that team was a stacked deck. IMO that championship is one of the most impressive I've ever seen.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:53 am    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
All of Lebron’s rings have come from stacking the deck. You can’t “discount” KD’s rings and not do the same for LBJ’s rings.


Lebron is not the relevant comparison. Lebron is in a different tier from Durant or Leonard.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:40 am    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
All of Lebron’s rings have come from stacking the deck. You can’t “discount” KD’s rings and not do the same for LBJ’s rings.



Lebron inspires passionate reactions, pro and con, but most people don't look at it that way.

The criticism that Lebron joined "stacked teams" has mostly faded away, in part because his own performance in the finals were so high and because the teams did poorly after he left.

There is more of a perception that Durant is along for the ride with the Warriors rather than the engine.
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JUST-MING
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:54 am    Post subject:

http://www.nba.com/media/team_usa_roster_2007_600.jpg

Miami roster was practically the Olympic roster w/ Ray Allen

Try again

https://live.staticflickr.com/5011/5488737635_4bd6b7c278.jpg


Last edited by JUST-MING on Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:57 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:32 am    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
george w kush wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
All of Lebron’s rings have come from stacking the deck. You can’t “discount” KD’s rings and not do the same for LBJ’s rings.


Last time I checked, LeBron has never joined a 73 win team, or joined a team that beat him in the conference finals, or joined an already assembled team that won a ring without him.


http://www.nba.com/media/team_usa_roster_2007_600.jpg

Miami roster was practically the Olympic roster w/ Ray Allen

Try again

https://live.staticflickr.com/5011/5488737635_4bd6b7c278.jpg



I'd say there are four differences:

1. While the Heat roster was good, it was not proven like the Warriors roster was. Durant joined a team that was coming off the finals and had won a ring the year before. The Heat had great potential -- but we've seen lots of super teams with great potential that didn't pan out.

2. The team Durant joined was fully formed. Lebron joined with Bush and Wade, but he didn't know that Allen and the other guys would come later.

3. It seems to bother some people that Durant joined the very team that beat him in the finals. It was a going to the enemy thing. There wasn't that perception when Lebron joined the Heat.

4. Lebron left the Heat and won again in Cleveland -- that eliminated a lot of the criticism of him joining with Bush and Wade. If Durant went someone else and won, that would reduce some of the stigma people associate with him. Conversely, if the Warriors win without him it will amp up some of the criticism.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:41 am    Post subject:

loslakersss wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
All of Lebron’s rings have come from stacking the deck. You can’t “discount” KD’s rings and not do the same for LBJ’s rings.


While he freely went back to CLE and was clearly in charge of the trades, I don't think that team was a stacked deck. IMO that championship is one of the most impressive I've ever seen.


He had two all-nba teammates including one that scored 40+ points in the finals and hit the series winning basket. That team was just as stacked. Don’t kid yourself.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:28 am    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
All of Lebron’s rings have come from stacking the deck. You can’t “discount” KD’s rings and not do the same for LBJ’s rings.


While he freely went back to CLE and was clearly in charge of the trades, I don't think that team was a stacked deck. IMO that championship is one of the most impressive I've ever seen.


He had two all-nba teammates including one that scored 40+ points in the finals and hit the series winning basket. That team was just as stacked. Don’t kid yourself.



Well, you're talking about what guys became after Lebron joined them.

When Lebron made the decision to rejoin the Cavs, Irving had never yet made an all-NBA team. Love wasn't on the team either (the Cavs traded for him about a month after Lebron signed with them).

So in the case of Cavs, it wasn't a "stacked deck" when he rejoined them. And of course, we can debate how much talent the Cavs had -- I don't rate that squad, outside Lebron, as highly as you do. And certainly those guys haven't had the same success without Lebron as the Warrior players did without Durant.
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