I'm looking for anyone who doesn't want to trade Zo, Hart, Kuz, and BI.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:39 pm    Post subject:

Grodyman wrote:
This is such a one sided trade........look at the Kawhi trade, Toronto got Kawhi and Green, gave up Derozan, a stiff, and a late first......Spurs even gave Toronto come cash for god's sake.

I think an equivalent trade would be Lonzo, Wagner, and a future 1st. Period.

Gman


Derozan was an all star and Lonzo plays half a season shoots
Fts below 40% and struggles shooting. From an asset perspective, he’s not enough. KL had a huge injury concern. It was much worse than AD’s small injuries here and there.

Plus salaries don’t match if you are trying to get another max player.

Lastly, othe teams probably beat that package.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:40 pm    Post subject: Re: I'm looking for anyone who doesn't want to trade Zo, Hart, Kuz, and BI.

lakersboy wrote:
This thread is a search for people out there who don't want to trade these guys. If you say it in other threads you're called dumb. Here are some of my reasons:

I firmly believe that these guys will be the quality players that other teams envy, and if traded, we will too. It's a horrible gamble for a player whose career numbers include 23 + ppg, 2 ast, 31% 3's, and 67 games per year, without carrying his team like truly dominant players do. He's very good, but not worth the price we'd pay.

Imo, it's unreasonable to believe AD's production will be as valuable as the collective production of our players playing 4 positions, especially considering the likliehood that at least some, or more, will be available for every game.

Individually, AD's stats are better, but every one of these quality guys will improve next year. This could be the year they'll individually become a problem for opponents for years to come.

If they were being traded for a proven difference maker/ man among boys, with an ironman history, the gamble would seem less extreme. AD is a very good player who should come during free agency so he can dominate with these guys, or at the earliest, during the trade deadline when NO's leverage is at its lowest, and he could solidify a playoff push.

We've suffered for 6 years. Conversations on LG talk about how today, winning basketball involves playing small lineups. That strategy developed from patiently waiting for investments to grow. Our star scorer no longer defends well, and he needs the capable young defenders we already have. F/a AD will have a great shot at winning, and he would love playing with them. Patience means years of success. Gambling the last of the good assets away means we should brace ourselves for several more years of a rebuild sooner than we should.

NO would be very happy with that haul of players.


If you know you're getting a max free agent and AD, trade them all.


If you don't know that, keep Lonzo at all costs, including calling NOP's bluff and getting AD next summer.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:58 pm    Post subject:

epak wrote:
This is a safe place for me. Thank you

Welcome, but be careful. They're here watching us.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:11 pm    Post subject:

Wait, is this a thread for people who don’t want to trade ANY of the four, or dont want to trade ALL four?

The way the title is written makes it seem like all four only?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:12 pm    Post subject: Re: I'm looking for anyone who doesn't want to trade Zo, Hart, Kuz, and BI.

activeverb wrote:
lakersboy wrote:
This thread is a search for people out there who don't want to trade these guys. If you say it in other threads you're called dumb. Here are some of my reasons:



LG is full of threads about trading AD, and those threads have lots of comments from people who oppose trading him or giving up too much for him.

Don't really see what the point of having yet another thread on this topic.

The answer is in the bolded part that you ignored. Possibly because you don't care either way. Those of us who do and who have been called out and argued with, appreciate a calm place where I don't need to see opinions that I strongly disagree with.

Meanwhile, I'm not sure why I repeatedly have to be scrutinized by you as to whether I should be starting a thread.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:13 pm    Post subject:

Grodyman wrote:
This is such a one sided trade........look at the Kawhi trade, Toronto got Kawhi and Green, gave up Derozan, a stiff, and a late first......Spurs even gave Toronto come cash for god's sake.

I think an equivalent trade would be Lonzo, Wagner, and a future 1st. Period.

Gman



At the time of the trade, Derozan was a four-time all-star coming off an second-team all-NBA season. He'd been the top player on a team that got to the conference finals.

Lonzo isn't regarded as anywhere near his level. We really don't have any one player on our roster, other than Lebron, who is close to that level.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:15 pm    Post subject: Re: I'm looking for anyone who doesn't want to trade Zo, Hart, Kuz, and BI.

lakersboy wrote:
activeverb wrote:
lakersboy wrote:
This thread is a search for people out there who don't want to trade these guys. If you say it in other threads you're called dumb. Here are some of my reasons:



LG is full of threads about trading AD, and those threads have lots of comments from people who oppose trading him or giving up too much for him.

Don't really see what the point of having yet another thread on this topic.

The answer is in the bolded part that you ignored. Possibly because you don't care either way. Those of us who do and who have been called out and argued with, appreciate a calm place where I don't need to see opinions that I strongly disagree with.

Meanwhile, I'm not sure why I repeatedly have to be scrutinized by you as to whether I should be starting a thread.

Feel free to head back over to the AD trade now. The "don't trade the kids" crew has mobilized and the dynamic has been reversed.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:21 pm    Post subject:

People already know where I stand.

However, unpleasant though it may be... it's better to debate this on the regular free agent thread.

What happens in politics is the liberals go to a liberal message board... the conservatives go to a conservative message board... and although it's less confrontational... people don't grow because they just sit and agree with each other.

Contrary to popular belief... I don't like to argue. I am argumentative, but that's if I feel strongly about something.

If people want AD now... especially the fans who mostly follow LBJ... they can't stand my constant insistence that we are trading too much for someone who we can sign next season.

People who are open to other options, usually don't hate what I post.

The AD or bust crowd is a particularly aggressive bunch and they will wear you down with persistence if not necessarily logic.

I'm sure they feel the same about me.

At any rate... good luck with your thread... but we need more people to stand up to the AD at any cost posters in the regular thread as well.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:26 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Grodyman wrote:
This is such a one sided trade........look at the Kawhi trade, Toronto got Kawhi and Green, gave up Derozan, a stiff, and a late first......Spurs even gave Toronto come cash for god's sake.

I think an equivalent trade would be Lonzo, Wagner, and a future 1st. Period.

Gman



At the time of the trade, Derozan was a four-time all-star coming off an second-team all-NBA season. He'd been the top player on a team that got to the conference finals.

Lonzo isn't regarded as anywhere near his level. We really don't have any one player on our roster, other than Lebron, who is close to that level.


It took DeRozan until he was 24 to score what Ingram did at 21.

DeRozan has never shot as well from the field as Ingram at any point in his career.

I find it amusing that people say definitively Ingram will never be an all star level... when he's already far beyond DeRozan... and also shot better from the field than Kobe did in any season in his career.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:31 pm    Post subject:

Of course it's a bad idea to trade away your future, but the second we signed lebron all bets were off. He never leaves a franchise in good shape. I'd much rather we grew with the players and developed a relationship with them on and off the court instead of trying the "just add water" path to a championship.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:31 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Wait, is this a thread for people who don’t want to trade ANY of the four, or dont want to trade ALL four?

The way the title is written makes it seem like all four only?

As I wrote, I'd like to see him come as a f/a, meaning no trade. I know I'm in the minority, but I expected I could find someone else who wouldn't mind admitting that they don't want a trade of any kind. Saying that in another thread makes you stupid.

I don't agree with mid season trades for someone who wants to come as a f/a, but if someone wasn't performing like we thought they should, I'm all for expediting the trade once you know what you have.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:38 pm    Post subject: Re: I'm looking for anyone who doesn't want to trade Zo, Hart, Kuz, and BI.

Beir32 wrote:
lakersboy wrote:
activeverb wrote:
lakersboy wrote:
This thread is a search for people out there who don't want to trade these guys. If you say it in other threads you're called dumb. Here are some of my reasons:



LG is full of threads about trading AD, and those threads have lots of comments from people who oppose trading him or giving up too much for him.

Don't really see what the point of having yet another thread on this topic.

The answer is in the bolded part that you ignored. Possibly because you don't care either way. Those of us who do and who have been called out and argued with, appreciate a calm place where I don't need to see opinions that I strongly disagree with.

Meanwhile, I'm not sure why I repeatedly have to be scrutinized by you as to whether I should be starting a thread.

Feel free to head back over to the AD trade now. The "don't trade the kids" crew has mobilized and the dynamic has been reversed.

I'm not interested in that thread and don't read or post in it.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:41 pm    Post subject:

OC Lakerfan wrote:
Laker_Jocker wrote:
OC Lakerfan wrote:
Laker_Jocker wrote:
I'm in...

Simply adding someone like Jimmy Butler has the same effect (at least in the LBJ era) as gutting the team for the "two-star" philosophy.

This year (especially for teams in the playoffs) should be proof positive that depth is necessary to be successful in the league.

Looking at the difference between:

Lonzo/Rondo on vet min?
Butler/Hart/#4 DP
Ingram/Kuz/Bonga
LBJ/Wagner
Vet Free Agent/Williams

or

Sub-Max FA/Rondo?/Caruso
vet min/Bonga
LBJ/vet min
AD/Wagner
vet min/Williams

Both teams make the playoffs but the first one has a WAY better chance to survive a playoff series (or two) especially if LBJ or AD has any sort of injury...


Depends on who the submax FA is and what vet min guys we are getting.

Who are we beating in the playoffs if Butler or LBJ get injured in the Western Conference?


According to what I think are the generally accepted salary numbers, trading ZO/BI/Kuz/Hart/#4 adding in AD's salary leaves about 30-31M in cap for a slightly less than max offer to Kyrie or Kemba.

Not saying that either team can win in the playoffs, but the team is clearly gutted (5 players under contract) in the second scenario as all the rest of the rotation are vet min.

I am just saying that injury to one or more of the "max stars" in that the second scenario is MUCH worse than in the first scenario where ZO/BI/Kuz/Hart are still on the team being that "the others" are all vet min and likely inferior quality to what ZO/BI/Kuz/Hart/#4 could bring.


ZO and BI contributed to like 47 and 52 games last year. They don’t show much durability so you need to take that into account for your “depth.” How many games did Zo put up terrible numbers? Do you think he’s ready for the playoffs when he disappears in regular season games? Is BI poised to make the leap? We are all hoping so and he’s showing glimpses but it hasn’t happened yet. Kuz and Hart had their troubles last year as well. Based on all this, you think they can keep us afloat if one of the stars got hurt?

Again second option depends on which vets we get. There’s a few quality ring chasers out there who are more dependable than our young core (that is why they are vets). However, it’s hard to speak to unless you know who we are getting.


I get your point, I have no idea what kind of minimum salary players would fill out the roster. If 2-3 more former star vets are obtained they of course would have more impact BUT to your point they also could get hurt like just like BI and ZO did and/or disappear in the playoffs just like many “role” players do. - we could debate the “what if” forever....

Spending up all the cap on 3 guys means minimums. The vets that would come likely would be similar to this year...like Rondo, Lance, Beas....all of whom had severely questionable contributions same as the kids AND typically only sign 1 year contracts anyway...

So, given that no one can predict who those vets would be or if they would stay healthy or if they would keep the team a float in or out of the playoffs any better than the kids, my vote is to do the more sane thing of growing whatever talent (on rookie contracts) you currently have and adding vets to it incrementally - that, to me, is actual depth for the team as opposed to 3 vets and whatever can be cobbled together for each season...
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:43 pm    Post subject:

These vets all were paid more than the minimum.

They would even be worse in many cases than what was available this season.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:46 pm    Post subject:

If we get a top FA out of it, then fine. Lebron and Davis aren’t leading us to the promised land.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:50 pm    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Grodyman wrote:
This is such a one sided trade........look at the Kawhi trade, Toronto got Kawhi and Green, gave up Derozan, a stiff, and a late first......Spurs even gave Toronto come cash for god's sake.

I think an equivalent trade would be Lonzo, Wagner, and a future 1st. Period.

Gman



At the time of the trade, Derozan was a four-time all-star coming off an second-team all-NBA season. He'd been the top player on a team that got to the conference finals.

Lonzo isn't regarded as anywhere near his level. We really don't have any one player on our roster, other than Lebron, who is close to that level.


It took DeRozan until he was 24 to score what Ingram did at 21.

DeRozan has never shot as well from the field as Ingram at any point in his career.

I find it amusing that people say definitively Ingram will never be an all star level... when he's already far beyond DeRozan... and also shot better from the field than Kobe did in any season in his career.



I have never pretended to be able to predict the future myself. Ingram will become an all-star if and when he becomes an all-star. I would no more say that's impossible than I would say it's inevitable.

I think it's reasonable to say at this point hardly anyone values Ingram as a likely future all-star. However, at the time DeRozan was traded, it's a fact that he was a four-time all-star and all-NBA player. So if your contention is that Ingram at this moment in time has as much trade value as DeRozan did when he was traded to the Spurs, I'd say you are wrong.


Last edited by activeverb on Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:50 pm    Post subject:

OC Lakerfan wrote:
I don’t want us to overpay but I see how deceptive you are when presenting stats.

Why not list his rebounds, fg% and block rate? Because it makes your argument look worse?

OP knocked AD’s games played but last year they sat him out for non injury related reasons. He played in 75 games 2 years in a row before that.

Lonzo has played in 52 games and 47 games in consecutive seasons.

Brandon Ingram has a possible career ending condition has played in 70 59 52 games respectively.

Both of them play less minutes than AD and average less games.
My opinion isn't based on the stats I presented and those who I was looking for to post here would probably say the same thing. I acknowledged that he's a good player. I don't don't expect my opinion to sway anyone else. I was just voicing some stats that could help illustrate why I feel that way. Without the stats, my feelings are the same.

Last edited by lakersboy on Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:54 pm    Post subject:

So BI, Lonzo and #4 do not equal Derozan, a Stiff, and a Late 1st? Raptors also got Green

Raptors got Kawhi, Green and cash money

BI/Lonzo > Derozan
#4 > Stiff plus late 1st
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:11 pm    Post subject:

Grodyman wrote:
So BI, Lonzo and #4 do not equal Derozan, a Stiff, and a Late 1st? Raptors also got Green

Raptors got Kawhi, Green and cash money

BI/Lonzo > Derozan
#4 > Stiff plus late 1st



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:15 pm    Post subject:

We are trying to acquire a perennial all star 2 way MVP candidate, who is 25 YEARS OLD. It's delusional to think we are going to fleece a team giving up that type of player. I love BI/Zo as much as the next guy, but if that's what it takes then it's worth it. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:33 pm    Post subject:

lakersboy wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Wait, is this a thread for people who don’t want to trade ANY of the four, or dont want to trade ALL four?

The way the title is written makes it seem like all four only?

As I wrote, I'd like to see him come as a f/a, meaning no trade. I know I'm in the minority, but I expected I could find someone else who wouldn't mind admitting that they don't want a trade of any kind. Saying that in another thread makes you stupid.

I don't agree with mid season trades for someone who wants to come as a f/a, but if someone wasn't performing like we thought they should, I'm all for expediting the trade once you know what you have.


I think you have some valid points. We are essentially trading for 1 year of AD.

That said, I would give up Hart for that. You wouldn’t?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:35 pm    Post subject:

Trading for a 1 year rental of AD right as our young guys are about to explode could quite possibly be one of the stupidest moves in franchise history.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:39 pm    Post subject:

So if AD bolts next summer after trading the farm for him, I'll be rooting for the Pelicans.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:41 pm    Post subject:

I will take a break if we lose Ingram, Ball and 4th. If we also lose Kuz I will just (bleep) rage on the team.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:42 pm    Post subject:

LakerLogic wrote:
So if AD bolts next summer after trading the farm for him, I'll be rooting for the Pelicans.


What if AD played double agent... let them trade the core to New Orleans...

then went back and signed with Pelicans.

It would be a dynasty for years.

Wonder if Griffin and AD are capable of that type of long con.
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