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tox Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 17876
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Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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PLATNUM wrote: | tox wrote: | loslakersss wrote: | tox wrote: | The problem is his ending isn't really an earned conclusion of his storyline. It's not like it's the conclusion of an arc where he sees how happy Tony Stark is and realizes he still wants that with Peggy. It doesn't really tie in with any of the movie's themes. It doesn't fit narratively (it doesn't make sense how the time travel works), it sidelines his relationship with Bucky, and it might even entirely undermine his character (like, is there another Captain America picking up the slack in this timeline or is he just totally abandoning fighting Hydra, rescuing Bucky etc.). |
It did make sense and was tied into Tony and Steve's conversation from Age of Ultron. Tony says that maybe he'll pull a page out of Barton's book and build Pepper a farm, start a simple life. He tells Cap he'll get there someday. Cap replies that he's not that guy anymore, wife/kids...the guy that wanted that went in the ice in 1940's. He wanted that with Peggy. So when he is able to go back to 1940's he becomes that guy again.
The timelines and "future" is set. So him fighting Hydra or saving Bucky doesn't change anything in the "main" timeline, it would just create more changes in this alternate reality.
Bucky knew what Steve was gonna do, that's why their goodbye was so long even though Steve was supposed be back in 10 seconds. Either Steve told him or he just knew. That's why he wasn't freaking out when Steve didn't come back via the time jump like Sam and Bruce did. |
Eh, the second two things you said are contrivances. If the future is set, what happens to Peggy's husband and children in the original timeline? And if Bucky knew, then tell us on screen. You'd think it'd be an important enough thing to warrant a minute in a 180-minute long movie.
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Bucky hugs Cap and tells him he'll miss him when Hulk had just said he'd be back in 5 seconds. I knew at that point he wasn't coming back... well he DID come back.. but he was old as hell and had lived out his life. |
OK but the point is not about the plot specifics. It doesn't matter if Cap clearly told Bucky this stuff off camera, because it's still true that the movie minimized their relationship entirely. There was no emotion, not proper culmination of a multi-movie arc. To bring it back to the main point, again, this is why I found the queer reading convincing. (To stress, I don't actually have any personal investment in the Cap-Bucky dynamic as I didn't watch the relevant movies. I'm just taking it as a given that he's crucial to Cap's earlier storyline.)
But in case my point is not clear, imagine if Tony sacrifices himself to stop Thanos... off camera. There are some passing references to his sacrifice during his funeral but we don't see it. It'd obviously be infuriating, but clearly the plot per se hasn't changed: the same story events occur. So what exactly would be infuriating? Well, it's that it'd undercut the culmination of his storyline, both within Endgame and more broadly within MCU. It'd be anticlimactic and robbing fans of actually viewing this really important moment.
Now obviously what they did with Cap's ending isn't anywhere as close to as much of an issue here. But the same point applies. If Bucky is an important person to Cap, then we should wonder why we didn't actually get to see an adequate resolution. Something similar is true of Hulk btw: Banner accepted Hulk off screen, and so he didn't really have a character arc per se. The plot logic of this happening in the intervening 5 years makes sense, but in terms of the audience's emotions it's not satisfying. It's not a surprise that no one has really discussed Hulk in this thread because he basically lacked a storyline entirely (when him un-snapping everyone should've been the culmination of his series-long character arc) |
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loslakersss Franchise Player
Joined: 31 Dec 2008 Posts: 11853 Location: LA
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Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 6:57 am Post subject: |
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tox wrote: | loslakersss wrote: | tox wrote: | The problem is his ending isn't really an earned conclusion of his storyline. It's not like it's the conclusion of an arc where he sees how happy Tony Stark is and realizes he still wants that with Peggy. It doesn't really tie in with any of the movie's themes. It doesn't fit narratively (it doesn't make sense how the time travel works), it sidelines his relationship with Bucky, and it might even entirely undermine his character (like, is there another Captain America picking up the slack in this timeline or is he just totally abandoning fighting Hydra, rescuing Bucky etc.). |
It did make sense and was tied into Tony and Steve's conversation from Age of Ultron. Tony says that maybe he'll pull a page out of Barton's book and build Pepper a farm, start a simple life. He tells Cap he'll get there someday. Cap replies that he's not that guy anymore, wife/kids...the guy that wanted that went in the ice in 1940's. He wanted that with Peggy. So when he is able to go back to 1940's he becomes that guy again.
The timelines and "future" is set. So him fighting Hydra or saving Bucky doesn't change anything in the "main" timeline, it would just create more changes in this alternate reality.
Bucky knew what Steve was gonna do, that's why their goodbye was so long even though Steve was supposed be back in 10 seconds. Either Steve told him or he just knew. That's why he wasn't freaking out when Steve didn't come back via the time jump like Sam and Bruce did. |
Eh, the second two things you said are contrivances. If the future is set, what happens to Peggy's husband and children in the original timeline? And if Bucky knew, then tell us on screen. You'd think it'd be an important enough thing to warrant a minute in a 180-minute long movie.
As for the first point you make, well first it presupposes time travel working how you say (meaning apparently another Steve Rodgers exists who's actually performing the duties of Captain America) which to me is already shaky. But even if I grant you that, the point remains that this moment still warrants some actual narrative engagement. One easy solution would have been for Cap to really admire Tony Stark's quiet family life and maybe even show regret for pulling him into this. And that realization is what makes him go back in time, now that it's an option on the table. But even then you need to address whether he's abandoning his duties and what happens to Peggy's family if he "overwrites" their existence, because those would also weigh on Cap's decision.
No matter how you slice it, his ending was totally half-baked. The most obvious read is that they just needed some way to end his character's involvement in the MCU so they contrived something as to not infringe on Tony's death. But, as the origin of this entire conversation, I thought the queer reading of his storyline was also fairly plausible. |
Nothing changes in the original timeline; the past will always remain the same. They quickly explained this with the "back to the future is BS" line as well as the conversation with The Ancient One. Essentially Timeline A is the main timeline and any time he goes back in time to change something, it doesn't change the past of Timeline A but creates an alternate reality in a Timeline B, C, D, etc.
And Cap/Steve is in ice from 1945 - 2011 so he's not doing anything during that time. That's the whole reason Peggy moves on, she thinks he's dead.
Regarding Bucky, the story doesn't always need to spell things out. Some things are better left for the viewer to figure out on their own; these are the types of things that 1. make re-watches better and 2. trust the audience that they don't need their hand held for everything. |
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tox Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 17876
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Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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Agree to disagree, neither explanation cuts it for me and I think we're just talking around each other at this point. |
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Lonzo-Lite Star Player
Joined: 17 May 2011 Posts: 5090
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Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 8:43 am Post subject: |
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After reading the director's interviews, the time travel aspect in this movie actually makes more sense than in other films like Back to the Future, Terminator.
When you go back in time, what you change in the past does NOT affect your present. In Back to the Future, changing the past makes Marty go all transparent and disappear in the present. In Endgame, changing the past just creates an alternate branch separate from your main timeline.
When Steve from the main timeline goes back and gets with Peggy, he created an alternate branch separate from the main timeline he was in. When he traveled back to the present to give Sam his shield he actually had to jump back to the main timeline. _________________ Tacos |
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loslakersss Franchise Player
Joined: 31 Dec 2008 Posts: 11853 Location: LA
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Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:12 am Post subject: |
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They are doing a re-release next weekend with bonus footage, and a deleted scene a tribute post credits. They are gonna take down Avatar. |
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numero-ocho Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2004 Posts: 18202 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:01 am Post subject: |
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loslakersss wrote: | They are doing a re-release next weekend with bonus footage, and a deleted scene a tribute post credits. They are gonna take down Avatar. |
It was already on my buy list when it gets released for home video but I may go see it again. There certainly isn't anything else upcoming in theaters that peaks my interest until Spider-Man comes out next month. Since John Wick 3, it's been one bomb (Godzilla, Dark Phoenix, MiB Int'l) after another.
I just hope MCU releases both cuts on one video release and not put us through this DoFP and DoFP: Rogue Cut crap. _________________ "Suck it up. Don't be a baby. Do your job." - Kobe Bryant |
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numero-ocho Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2004 Posts: 18202 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:14 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | SreenRant has a few more details from their own interview with Feige:
Not an extended cut, but there will be a version going into theaters with a bit of a marketing push with a few new things at the end of the movie. If you stay and watch the movie, after the credits, there’ll be a deleted scene, a little tribute, and a few surprises. Which will be next weekend.
When Feige says ‘next weekend’, that’s likely not this weekend |
Hmmm...not sure it's worth the time or money for that. _________________ "Suck it up. Don't be a baby. Do your job." - Kobe Bryant |
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audioaxes Franchise Player
Joined: 26 Apr 2004 Posts: 12573
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Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:52 am Post subject: |
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finally seen this movie. I still cant get over that the build up of all these Marvel films were centered around the silly premise that Thanos just wants to make half of the universe's population disappear while he lives in a garden cottage.
As someone who is as old and smart as Thanos is he had to know there was a very high chance the end result wouldnt be his expectations and that the population would simply regrow to the same amount eventually. |
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numero-ocho Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2004 Posts: 18202 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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loslakersss wrote: | They are doing a re-release next weekend with bonus footage, and a deleted scene a tribute post credits. They are gonna take down Avatar. |
Helping to take down Avatar might be enough incentive for me to go again.
Just realized Zoe Saldana is in both movies. Now she just needs to find a way to get a role in a Star Wars movie to add to her MCU and Star Trek creds. _________________ "Suck it up. Don't be a baby. Do your job." - Kobe Bryant |
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Jordan-esque Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Aug 2005 Posts: 10265
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loslakersss Franchise Player
Joined: 31 Dec 2008 Posts: 11853 Location: LA
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:59 am Post subject: |
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Eternals looks a lot more interesting than Shang Chi tbh. |
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C M B Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Nov 2006 Posts: 19864 Location: Prarie & Manchester, high above the western sideline
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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yikes. These fourth string marvel franchises are really something awful. _________________ http://chickhearn.ytmnd.com/
Sister Golden Hair wrote: | LAMAR ODOM is an anagram for ... DOOM ALARM
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jonnybravo Retired Number
Joined: 21 Sep 2007 Posts: 30679
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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They looks like every generic Marvel movie. _________________ KOBE |
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jonnybravo Retired Number
Joined: 21 Sep 2007 Posts: 30679
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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loslakersss wrote: | Eternals looks a lot more interesting than Shang Chi tbh. |
I remember hearing about a new Marvel movie with a male, Asian superhero lead and I was saying "PLEASE don't let it be a martial arts flick". Sure enough... _________________ KOBE |
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Triumph Star Player
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 Posts: 3106 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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I'm going the other way.
I'm way geeky about Marvel right now.
I was pretty indifferent to these movies before. I mean, I loved the first Iron Man, but then didn't really care for the next two Iron Mans, the first two Thor movies, the first Captain America, or the first two Avengers movies. Just thought they were okay, but ultimately pretty forgettable. And I was definitely having superhero/comic book movie fatigue at that point.
But starting from Captain America: The Winter Soldier, I think they have done a consistently good job with these movies (Ant-Man, Black Panther, Thor Ragnarok, Avengers 3-4). Not everything has been great, but for the most part I really enjoy them. And the WandaVision and Loki Disney+ series have been excellent, really unlike anything I've seen from a comic book movie or show before.
They're at a point where they have the reigning Academy Award winning best director at the helm of one of their films. That's crazy.
Kevin Feige should and does get a lot of credit for how successful the MCU is, but I also think their casting director Sarah Halley Finn deserves a lot of praise and has been integral to their success. She is fantastic at casting the perfect actors for these movies. |
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jonnybravo Retired Number
Joined: 21 Sep 2007 Posts: 30679
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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Triumph wrote: | I'm going the other way.
I'm way geeky about Marvel right now.
I was pretty indifferent to these movies before. I mean, I loved the first Iron Man, but then didn't really care for the next two Iron Mans, the first two Thor movies, the first Captain America, or the first two Avengers movies. Just thought they were okay, but ultimately pretty forgettable. And I was definitely having superhero/comic book movie fatigue at that point.
But starting from Captain America: The Winter Soldier, I think they have done a consistently good job with these movies (Ant-Man, Black Panther, Thor Ragnarok, Avengers 3-4). Not everything has been great, but for the most part I really enjoy them. And the WandaVision and Loki Disney+ series have been excellent, really unlike anything I've seen from a comic book movie or show before.
They're at a point where they have the reigning Academy Award winning best director at the helm of one of their films. That's crazy.
Kevin Feige should and does get a lot of credit for how successful the MCU is, but I also think their casting director Sarah Halley Finn deserves a lot of praise and has been integral to their success. She is fantastic at casting the perfect actors for these movies. |
Agree on the casting. The current actors seem pretty irreplaceable. Tony Stark played by anyone other than RDJ doesn't feel right. How they handled Captain America is perfect. Instead of having a new actor play the role, they just bumped up a character the audience is familiar with.
No idea what they'll do with Black Panther though. _________________ KOBE |
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Nash Vegas Star Player
Joined: 01 Sep 2012 Posts: 7239
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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Loved the Eternals trailer. The whole 7 thing feels so biblical. _________________ |
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Bol Star Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 4045
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Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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Black Widow was pretty good. I liked it more than I expected.
I wasn't looking forward too much to the upcoming movies, but that last Eternals trailer caught my attention. Looks pretty epic. |
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Nash Vegas Star Player
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Okman Rookie
Joined: 02 Jun 2021 Posts: 5
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ChickenStu Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 31911 Location: Anaheim, CA
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Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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jonnybravo wrote: | loslakersss wrote: | Eternals looks a lot more interesting than Shang Chi tbh. |
I remember hearing about a new Marvel movie with a male, Asian superhero lead and I was saying "PLEASE don't let it be a martial arts flick". Sure enough... |
I just saw it earlier today. I thought it was outstanding. |
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jonnybravo Retired Number
Joined: 21 Sep 2007 Posts: 30679
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Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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ChickenStu wrote: | jonnybravo wrote: | loslakersss wrote: | Eternals looks a lot more interesting than Shang Chi tbh. |
I remember hearing about a new Marvel movie with a male, Asian superhero lead and I was saying "PLEASE don't let it be a martial arts flick". Sure enough... |
I just saw it earlier today. I thought it was outstanding. |
Awesome! Looking forward to it. _________________ KOBE |
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ChickenStu Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 31911 Location: Anaheim, CA
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Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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jonnybravo wrote: | ChickenStu wrote: | jonnybravo wrote: | loslakersss wrote: | Eternals looks a lot more interesting than Shang Chi tbh. |
I remember hearing about a new Marvel movie with a male, Asian superhero lead and I was saying "PLEASE don't let it be a martial arts flick". Sure enough... |
I just saw it earlier today. I thought it was outstanding. |
Awesome! Looking forward to it. |
Marvel pretty much has my money anyway, but add Michelle Yeoh and Tony Leung? Oh yes, I'm all in. |
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loslakersss Franchise Player
Joined: 31 Dec 2008 Posts: 11853 Location: LA
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Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:35 am Post subject: |
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Yeah Shang Chi was a lot more fun than I thought. The martial arts made it feel a lot more fresh—it didn’t feel too superhero-y until the very end. |
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Triumph Star Player
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 Posts: 3106 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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I'm glad that Shang-Chi has the 10 rings which grant him super powers and isn't just a human that is good at fighting (i.e. Black Widow, Hawkeye) and thus on the "B-Team" of the Avengers
It's cool to see a super hero that kind of looks like me that is able to roll with the big boys.
Also new Hawkeye Disney+ series trailer is fun. Has a Die Hard action/comedy Christmas vibe to it. Also Tony Dalton (Better Call Saul) is in it, which is awesome.
Honestly Marvel is killing it with these Disney+ series. Each one of them couldn't be more different from each other. |
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