Frank Vogel Official Lakers Head Coach for 3-Years
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Are you happy about Vogel becoming our coach?
No
13%
 13%  [ 47 ]
Yes
45%
 45%  [ 161 ]
Neutral
41%
 41%  [ 149 ]
Total Votes : 357

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Luminous8
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:05 pm    Post subject:

Meh... would have really liked to have seen us go out and get Hornacek. He’s as innovative an offensive coach as you can find. Would have been a perfect compliment to the defensive minds of vogel/Kidd/Hollins.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:08 pm    Post subject:

Luminous8 wrote:
Meh... would have really liked to have seen us go out and get Hornacek. He’s as innovative an offensive coach as you can find. Would have been a perfect compliment to the defensive minds of vogel/Kidd/Hollins.


What about David Blatt?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:28 pm    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
Luminous8 wrote:
Meh... would have really liked to have seen us go out and get Hornacek. He’s as innovative an offensive coach as you can find. Would have been a perfect compliment to the defensive minds of vogel/Kidd/Hollins.


What about David Blatt?


He wouldn’t come here as an assistant. Not with LBJ here. But having said that, I think Blatt is an absolute offensive genius and never got a real chance to run his own offensive scheme in Cleveland
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:30 pm    Post subject:

Luminous8 wrote:
Meh... would have really liked to have seen us go out and get Hornacek. He’s as innovative an offensive coach as you can find. Would have been a perfect compliment to the defensive minds of vogel/Kidd/Hollins.


Am like stupid when it comes to offensive schemes so forgive me, but what about Hornacek's offense is/was innovative?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:34 pm    Post subject:

samkosei5 wrote:
Luminous8 wrote:
Meh... would have really liked to have seen us go out and get Hornacek. He’s as innovative an offensive coach as you can find. Would have been a perfect compliment to the defensive minds of vogel/Kidd/Hollins.


Am like stupid when it comes to offensive schemes so forgive me, but what about Hornacek's offense is/was innovative?


Go back a page or two. I posted a video. Steve Kerr has actually commented on this several times and talked about taking plays from him and seeing him as a guy who gave him confidence to become HC.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:11 pm    Post subject:

Luminous8 wrote:
samkosei5 wrote:
Luminous8 wrote:
Meh... would have really liked to have seen us go out and get Hornacek. He’s as innovative an offensive coach as you can find. Would have been a perfect compliment to the defensive minds of vogel/Kidd/Hollins.


Am like stupid when it comes to offensive schemes so forgive me, but what about Hornacek's offense is/was innovative?


Go back a page or two. I posted a video. Steve Kerr has actually commented on this several times and talked about taking plays from him and seeing him as a guy who gave him the confidence to become HC.


Sorry couldn't find it; are you talking about the youtube video on his offense with Phoenix 5 years ago?

I know you advocated for him a while back, but I didn't think he was that impressive in New York so who knows.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:04 pm    Post subject:

samkosei5 wrote:
Luminous8 wrote:
samkosei5 wrote:
Luminous8 wrote:
Meh... would have really liked to have seen us go out and get Hornacek. He’s as innovative an offensive coach as you can find. Would have been a perfect compliment to the defensive minds of vogel/Kidd/Hollins.


Am like stupid when it comes to offensive schemes so forgive me, but what about Hornacek's offense is/was innovative?


Go back a page or two. I posted a video. Steve Kerr has actually commented on this several times and talked about taking plays from him and seeing him as a guy who gave him the confidence to become HC.


Sorry couldn't find it; are you talking about the youtube video on his offense with Phoenix 5 years ago?

I know you advocated for him a while back, but I didn't think he was that impressive in New York so who knows.

To be fair, he was forced to run the triangle in NY.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:21 pm    Post subject:

samkosei5 wrote:
Luminous8 wrote:
samkosei5 wrote:
Luminous8 wrote:
Meh... would have really liked to have seen us go out and get Hornacek. He’s as innovative an offensive coach as you can find. Would have been a perfect compliment to the defensive minds of vogel/Kidd/Hollins.


Am like stupid when it comes to offensive schemes so forgive me, but what about Hornacek's offense is/was innovative?


Go back a page or two. I posted a video. Steve Kerr has actually commented on this several times and talked about taking plays from him and seeing him as a guy who gave him the confidence to become HC.


Sorry couldn't find it; are you talking about the youtube video on his offense with Phoenix 5 years ago?

I know you advocated for him a while back, but I didn't think he was that impressive in New York so who knows.


He never really had a chance to run his own offense in NYk. First it was solely Triangle. Then they tried to blend the triangle with Jeff’s offense. Finally Pj got fired and Jeff started running his own O. He bagan having really good success but then Porzingis went down and the team floundered. But his offense is legit.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:06 pm    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
Luminous8 wrote:
Meh... would have really liked to have seen us go out and get Hornacek. He’s as innovative an offensive coach as you can find. Would have been a perfect compliment to the defensive minds of vogel/Kidd/Hollins.


What about David Blatt?


Blatt is a complete joke. Ridiculous people even bring dude's name up as if he has anything to offer
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:50 pm    Post subject:

Judah wrote:
dabask11 wrote:
If this is it then the lack of a proven offensive coordinator sticks out like a sore thumb.

Don't need one. Just roll the ball out and see what happens. That's how all championship teams do it, right?


Yeah seriously our only hope right now might be phil handy stepping outside his comfort zone and bringing in some of nick nurse's stuff he probably picked up at toronto.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:01 am    Post subject:

Based on the comments he made on Mannix's podcast, it sounds like Vogel definitely has ideas for the kind of offense he wants to run. The only problem is the how. It's good that his understanding of the game has evolved, it's just that that isn't enough. You need someone in there who understands the how.

Something GT pointed out consistently during the Luke era was that even though the sets the Lakers ran were pretty fine a lot of times, the real issues that came up was the lack of counters (which led to immediate confusion once the play broke down), and the lack of progression at going deeper into the sets they ran. But that's what you expect to happen when you have a non specialist (Mermuys) designing the offense. This is the stuff that people in this thread don't get. What we shouldn't want is for the Lakers to just get by on talent to make up for the lack of vision in their offense. That's basically what's been happening since the Byron era. A meh offense where very few of the points are created by the system and the majority just coming from guys having to create something on their own. That's also easy to scout for the defense. The Lakers' offense was so weak that teams knew exactly what to do to take them out of it, and they struggled to respond to it because neither Mermuys or anyone on the staff were apt offensive minds.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:41 am    Post subject:

I think he has some good team around him. I am only afraid of Kidd. He can be great addition but also can be awful guy to have, someone who can ruin the team work we need.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:30 am    Post subject:

Judah wrote:
Based on the comments he made on Mannix's podcast, it sounds like Vogel definitely has ideas for the kind of offense he wants to run. The only problem is the how. It's good that his understanding of the game has evolved, it's just that that isn't enough. You need someone in there who understands the how.

Something GT pointed out consistently during the Luke era was that even though the sets the Lakers ran were pretty fine a lot of times, the real issues that came up was the lack of counters (which led to immediate confusion once the play broke down), and the lack of progression at going deeper into the sets they ran. But that's what you expect to happen when you have a non specialist (Mermuys) designing the offense. This is the stuff that people in this thread don't get. What we shouldn't want is for the Lakers to just get by on talent to make up for the lack of vision in their offense. That's basically what's been happening since the Byron era. A meh offense where very few of the points are created by the system and the majority just coming from guys having to create something on their own. That's also easy to scout for the defense. The Lakers' offense was so weak that teams knew exactly what to do to take them out of it, and they struggled to respond to it because neither Mermuys or anyone on the staff were apt offensive minds.

Help me understand... because I'm so, so lost after reading this post.

So we're paying a guy $5m a year for 3 years, for a total of $15m (i.e., fifteen million dollars, American $$s, not Iranian or Vietnamese or Ugandan or Somalian or Zimbabwean) to be our head coach... and you think that he may have ideas for the offense he wants to run but doesn't know how to put them into play... and that we are simply "going to just get by on talent"? How do you know, for sure, at this point in time, that his understanding has not evolved to a point where it will be enough and how will we know when it has evolved enough?? Is our head coach + all his assistant coaches (3 of them (!!!), who are all getting paid many millions in total too, also American $$s, not Iranian or Vietnamese or Ugandan or Somalian or Zimbabwean) + LeBron/AD/Rondo unable to do this as a collective? Why are we paying them all these valuable millions if they aren't able to perform this basic responsibility? Which "apt offensive mind" would you want us to hire so you can go into the season having 1000% confidence in the coaching staff and who would make winning the title a foregone conclusion?

I'd like to think that the Vogel/Kidd/Hollins/Handy hirings are NOT a result of affirmative action or nepotism (like with Byron Scott, who really shouldn't have gotten another job as a head coach after his first 2-3 failed gigs). What am I missing?? Perhaps you have the missing link??


Last edited by LAL1947 on Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:50 am    Post subject:

Luminous8 wrote:
samkosei5 wrote:
Luminous8 wrote:
samkosei5 wrote:
Luminous8 wrote:
Meh... would have really liked to have seen us go out and get Hornacek. He’s as innovative an offensive coach as you can find. Would have been a perfect compliment to the defensive minds of vogel/Kidd/Hollins.


Am like stupid when it comes to offensive schemes so forgive me, but what about Hornacek's offense is/was innovative?


Go back a page or two. I posted a video. Steve Kerr has actually commented on this several times and talked about taking plays from him and seeing him as a guy who gave him the confidence to become HC.


Sorry couldn't find it; are you talking about the youtube video on his offense with Phoenix 5 years ago?

I know you advocated for him a while back, but I didn't think he was that impressive in New York so who knows.


He never really had a chance to run his own offense in NYk. First it was solely Triangle. Then they tried to blend the triangle with Jeff’s offense. Finally Pj got fired and Jeff started running his own O. He bagan having really good success but then Porzingis went down and the team floundered. But his offense is legit.

I'm no X's and O's guy... so I'm having a little trouble reconciling these 2 things you just said:

1) "You would have really liked to have seen us go out and get Hornacek. He’s as innovative an offensive coach as you can find."

2) "He never really had a chance to run his own offense in NY. Then they tried to blend the triangle with Jeff’s offense. Finally Pj got fired and Jeff started running his own O. He began having really good success but then Porzingis went down and the team floundered."

Help me understand!! If he never really had a chance to run his own offense and his team floundered when he did get a chance... how do you know, with 100% certainty, that he is "as innovative an offensive coach as you can find"??

I'm beginning to think someone needs to lock you and Judah in a room together so y'all can compare "offensive coordinator" notes.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:49 am    Post subject:

Offense will not be a problem for this team.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:29 am    Post subject:

LAL1947 wrote:
Judah wrote:
Based on the comments he made on Mannix's podcast, it sounds like Vogel definitely has ideas for the kind of offense he wants to run. The only problem is the how. It's good that his understanding of the game has evolved, it's just that that isn't enough. You need someone in there who understands the how.

Something GT pointed out consistently during the Luke era was that even though the sets the Lakers ran were pretty fine a lot of times, the real issues that came up was the lack of counters (which led to immediate confusion once the play broke down), and the lack of progression at going deeper into the sets they ran. But that's what you expect to happen when you have a non specialist (Mermuys) designing the offense. This is the stuff that people in this thread don't get. What we shouldn't want is for the Lakers to just get by on talent to make up for the lack of vision in their offense. That's basically what's been happening since the Byron era. A meh offense where very few of the points are created by the system and the majority just coming from guys having to create something on their own. That's also easy to scout for the defense. The Lakers' offense was so weak that teams knew exactly what to do to take them out of it, and they struggled to respond to it because neither Mermuys or anyone on the staff were apt offensive minds.

Help me understand... because I'm so, so lost after reading this post.

So we're paying a guy $5m a year for 3 years, for a total of $15m (i.e., fifteen million dollars, American $$s, not Iranian or Vietnamese or Ugandan or Somalian or Zimbabwean) to be our head coach... and you think that he may have ideas for the offense he wants to run but doesn't know how to put them into play... and that we are simply "going to just get by on talent"? How do you know, for sure, at this point in time, that his understanding has not evolved to a point where it will be enough and how will we know when it has evolved enough?? Is our head coach + all his assistant coaches (3 of them (!!!), who are all getting paid many millions in total too, also American $$s, not Iranian or Vietnamese or Ugandan or Somalian or Zimbabwean) + LeBron/AD/Rondo unable to do this as a collective? Why are we paying them all these valuable millions if they aren't able to perform this basic responsibility? Which "apt offensive mind" would you want us to hire so you can go into the season having 1000% confidence in the coaching staff and who would make winning the title a foregone conclusion?

I'd like to think that the Vogel/Kidd/Hollins/Handy hirings are NOT a result of affirmative action or nepotism (like with Byron Scott, who really shouldn't have gotten another job as a head coach after his first 2-3 failed gigs). What am I missing?? Perhaps you have the missing link??


The problem is that LG people talk without a clue of what they are saying. They just read sports media click bait articles, and think they have the inside on everything. Like you said all of these guys are getting payed mucho bucks and trust me they know what they're doing. Some coaches maybe labeled experts in defense but in reality to be an expert in defense you have to also be an expert in offense. One does not work without the other.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:00 pm    Post subject:

Stumpy25 wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:
Judah wrote:
Based on the comments he made on Mannix's podcast, it sounds like Vogel definitely has ideas for the kind of offense he wants to run. The only problem is the how. It's good that his understanding of the game has evolved, it's just that that isn't enough. You need someone in there who understands the how.

Something GT pointed out consistently during the Luke era was that even though the sets the Lakers ran were pretty fine a lot of times, the real issues that came up was the lack of counters (which led to immediate confusion once the play broke down), and the lack of progression at going deeper into the sets they ran. But that's what you expect to happen when you have a non specialist (Mermuys) designing the offense. This is the stuff that people in this thread don't get. What we shouldn't want is for the Lakers to just get by on talent to make up for the lack of vision in their offense. That's basically what's been happening since the Byron era. A meh offense where very few of the points are created by the system and the majority just coming from guys having to create something on their own. That's also easy to scout for the defense. The Lakers' offense was so weak that teams knew exactly what to do to take them out of it, and they struggled to respond to it because neither Mermuys or anyone on the staff were apt offensive minds.

Help me understand... because I'm so, so lost after reading this post.

So we're paying a guy $5m a year for 3 years, for a total of $15m (i.e., fifteen million dollars, American $$s, not Iranian or Vietnamese or Ugandan or Somalian or Zimbabwean) to be our head coach... and you think that he may have ideas for the offense he wants to run but doesn't know how to put them into play... and that we are simply "going to just get by on talent"? How do you know, for sure, at this point in time, that his understanding has not evolved to a point where it will be enough and how will we know when it has evolved enough?? Is our head coach + all his assistant coaches (3 of them (!!!), who are all getting paid many millions in total too, also American $$s, not Iranian or Vietnamese or Ugandan or Somalian or Zimbabwean) + LeBron/AD/Rondo unable to do this as a collective? Why are we paying them all these valuable millions if they aren't able to perform this basic responsibility? Which "apt offensive mind" would you want us to hire so you can go into the season having 1000% confidence in the coaching staff and who would make winning the title a foregone conclusion?

I'd like to think that the Vogel/Kidd/Hollins/Handy hirings are NOT a result of affirmative action or nepotism (like with Byron Scott, who really shouldn't have gotten another job as a head coach after his first 2-3 failed gigs). What am I missing?? Perhaps you have the missing link??


The problem is that LG people talk without a clue of what they are saying. They just read sports media click bait articles, and think they have the inside on everything. Like you said all of these guys are getting payed mucho bucks and trust me they know what they're doing. Some coaches maybe labeled experts in defense but in reality to be an expert in defense you have to also be an expert in offense. One does not work without the other.


"he problem is that LG people talk without a clue of what they are saying."



They just read sports media click bait articles, and think they have the inside on everything.



"trust me"


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:59 pm    Post subject:

Looks like our offensive coordinator/guru is Lebron.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:58 pm    Post subject:

LAL1947 wrote:
Judah wrote:
Based on the comments he made on Mannix's podcast, it sounds like Vogel definitely has ideas for the kind of offense he wants to run. The only problem is the how. It's good that his understanding of the game has evolved, it's just that that isn't enough. You need someone in there who understands the how.

Something GT pointed out consistently during the Luke era was that even though the sets the Lakers ran were pretty fine a lot of times, the real issues that came up was the lack of counters (which led to immediate confusion once the play broke down), and the lack of progression at going deeper into the sets they ran. But that's what you expect to happen when you have a non specialist (Mermuys) designing the offense. This is the stuff that people in this thread don't get. What we shouldn't want is for the Lakers to just get by on talent to make up for the lack of vision in their offense. That's basically what's been happening since the Byron era. A meh offense where very few of the points are created by the system and the majority just coming from guys having to create something on their own. That's also easy to scout for the defense. The Lakers' offense was so weak that teams knew exactly what to do to take them out of it, and they struggled to respond to it because neither Mermuys or anyone on the staff were apt offensive minds.

Help me understand... because I'm so, so lost after reading this post.

So we're paying a guy $5m a year for 3 years, for a total of $15m (i.e., fifteen million dollars, American $$s, not Iranian or Vietnamese or Ugandan or Somalian or Zimbabwean) to be our head coach... and you think that he may have ideas for the offense he wants to run but doesn't know how to put them into play... and that we are simply "going to just get by on talent"? How do you know, for sure, at this point in time, that his understanding has not evolved to a point where it will be enough and how will we know when it has evolved enough?? Is our head coach + all his assistant coaches (3 of them (!!!), who are all getting paid many millions in total too, also American $$s, not Iranian or Vietnamese or Ugandan or Somalian or Zimbabwean) + LeBron/AD/Rondo unable to do this as a collective? Why are we paying them all these valuable millions if they aren't able to perform this basic responsibility? Which "apt offensive mind" would you want us to hire so you can go into the season having 1000% confidence in the coaching staff and who would make winning the title a foregone conclusion?

I'd like to think that the Vogel/Kidd/Hollins/Handy hirings are NOT a result of affirmative action or nepotism (like with Byron Scott, who really shouldn't have gotten another job as a head coach after his first 2-3 failed gigs). What am I missing?? Perhaps you have the missing link??


Dude, really?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:31 am    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:

I'd like to think that the Vogel/Kidd/Hollins/Handy hirings are NOT a result of affirmative action or nepotism (like with Byron Scott, who really shouldn't have gotten another job as a head coach after his first 2-3 failed gigs). What am I missing?? Perhaps you have the missing link??


Dude, really?

Well, apart from being a black, ex-player (i.e., affirmative action; I may be misusing the term here, so correct me if I am) and a former Laker (i.e., nepotism), I don't have a better explanation for why Byron Scott was still a head coach in the league during the years 2014-16. Do you?

He has had three good season as a coach? Two of them thanks to Jason Kidd (2001-02, 2002-03) and one thanks to CP3 (2007-08). Anyway, I'm not saying those players deserve all credit for those seasons... the point is, he was fired by the Nets, Hornets and Cavs... and his last good season as coach was 2008. So what did he do between 2008-2014 to deserve being appointed head coach of the Lakers?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:02 am    Post subject:

LAL1947 wrote:
Judah wrote:
Based on the comments he made on Mannix's podcast, it sounds like Vogel definitely has ideas for the kind of offense he wants to run. The only problem is the how. It's good that his understanding of the game has evolved, it's just that that isn't enough. You need someone in there who understands the how.

Something GT pointed out consistently during the Luke era was that even though the sets the Lakers ran were pretty fine a lot of times, the real issues that came up was the lack of counters (which led to immediate confusion once the play broke down), and the lack of progression at going deeper into the sets they ran. But that's what you expect to happen when you have a non specialist (Mermuys) designing the offense. This is the stuff that people in this thread don't get. What we shouldn't want is for the Lakers to just get by on talent to make up for the lack of vision in their offense. That's basically what's been happening since the Byron era. A meh offense where very few of the points are created by the system and the majority just coming from guys having to create something on their own. That's also easy to scout for the defense. The Lakers' offense was so weak that teams knew exactly what to do to take them out of it, and they struggled to respond to it because neither Mermuys or anyone on the staff were apt offensive minds.

Help me understand... because I'm so, so lost after reading this post.

So we're paying a guy $5m a year for 3 years, for a total of $15m (i.e., fifteen million dollars, American $$s, not Iranian or Vietnamese or Ugandan or Somalian or Zimbabwean) to be our head coach... and you think that he may have ideas for the offense he wants to run but doesn't know how to put them into play... and that we are simply "going to just get by on talent"? How do you know, for sure, at this point in time, that his understanding has not evolved to a point where it will be enough and how will we know when it has evolved enough?? Is our head coach + all his assistant coaches (3 of them (!!!), who are all getting paid many millions in total too, also American $$s, not Iranian or Vietnamese or Ugandan or Somalian or Zimbabwean) + LeBron/AD/Rondo unable to do this as a collective? Why are we paying them all these valuable millions if they aren't able to perform this basic responsibility? Which "apt offensive mind" would you want us to hire so you can go into the season having 1000% confidence in the coaching staff and who would make winning the title a foregone conclusion?

I'd like to think that the Vogel/Kidd/Hollins/Handy hirings are NOT a result of affirmative action or nepotism (like with Byron Scott, who really shouldn't have gotten another job as a head coach after his first 2-3 failed gigs). What am I missing?? Perhaps you have the missing link??

This is a weird post on a number of levels. But you obviously weren't following the debate in this thread, so allow me to summarize what my points are:

The title of "head coach" does not make someone an expert in every area of coaching. This is elementary. I don't know if it's possible for us to even talk about this if you've always assumed the opposite. A head coach may be gifted in one particular area, or even be fairly decent on both ends of the court. But they aren't always experts in every area. In fact, they don't necessarily have to be. Vogel is a good coach, but offense is not his strong suit. Defense is. That doesn't mean he's clueless about offense. It just means he's not a specialist at it. Not every head coach is a mastermind like Pop or Steve Kerr. And the thing is, if you're going to go toe to toe with someone who's a mastermind in an area that you're just 'okay' in, how good are your chances of beating them? Not very good because they're playing chess and you're playing checkers. And that is the point I'm making. They would've given themselves the best opportunity to succeed if they had hired an assistant who knows how to play chess instead of having a bunch of guys who know how to play checkers and can hopefully figure out that chess thing by putting their heads together.

I didn't say that I'm expecting the Lakers to just get by on talent. I was challenging the viewpoints expressed by the majority in this thread who scoffed at the need for an offensive tactician because 'LeBron and AD are good at offense lolz.' I'm more than confident that Vogel and the coaching staff will put their best foot forward and try to figure this thing out. I have zero doubt about that. I just doubt that the collective brain trust of the group will be enough come playoff time when they run into teams that have actual masterminds on their coaching staffs.
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Last edited by Judah on Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:10 am    Post subject:

Stumpy25 wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:
Judah wrote:
Based on the comments he made on Mannix's podcast, it sounds like Vogel definitely has ideas for the kind of offense he wants to run. The only problem is the how. It's good that his understanding of the game has evolved, it's just that that isn't enough. You need someone in there who understands the how.

Something GT pointed out consistently during the Luke era was that even though the sets the Lakers ran were pretty fine a lot of times, the real issues that came up was the lack of counters (which led to immediate confusion once the play broke down), and the lack of progression at going deeper into the sets they ran. But that's what you expect to happen when you have a non specialist (Mermuys) designing the offense. This is the stuff that people in this thread don't get. What we shouldn't want is for the Lakers to just get by on talent to make up for the lack of vision in their offense. That's basically what's been happening since the Byron era. A meh offense where very few of the points are created by the system and the majority just coming from guys having to create something on their own. That's also easy to scout for the defense. The Lakers' offense was so weak that teams knew exactly what to do to take them out of it, and they struggled to respond to it because neither Mermuys or anyone on the staff were apt offensive minds.

Help me understand... because I'm so, so lost after reading this post.

So we're paying a guy $5m a year for 3 years, for a total of $15m (i.e., fifteen million dollars, American $$s, not Iranian or Vietnamese or Ugandan or Somalian or Zimbabwean) to be our head coach... and you think that he may have ideas for the offense he wants to run but doesn't know how to put them into play... and that we are simply "going to just get by on talent"? How do you know, for sure, at this point in time, that his understanding has not evolved to a point where it will be enough and how will we know when it has evolved enough?? Is our head coach + all his assistant coaches (3 of them (!!!), who are all getting paid many millions in total too, also American $$s, not Iranian or Vietnamese or Ugandan or Somalian or Zimbabwean) + LeBron/AD/Rondo unable to do this as a collective? Why are we paying them all these valuable millions if they aren't able to perform this basic responsibility? Which "apt offensive mind" would you want us to hire so you can go into the season having 1000% confidence in the coaching staff and who would make winning the title a foregone conclusion?

I'd like to think that the Vogel/Kidd/Hollins/Handy hirings are NOT a result of affirmative action or nepotism (like with Byron Scott, who really shouldn't have gotten another job as a head coach after his first 2-3 failed gigs). What am I missing?? Perhaps you have the missing link??


The problem is that LG people talk without a clue of what they are saying. They just read sports media click bait articles, and think they have the inside on everything. Like you said all of these guys are getting payed mucho bucks and trust me they know what they're doing. Some coaches maybe labeled experts in defense but in reality to be an expert in defense you have to also be an expert in offense. One does not work without the other.

1)Ah, so guys like Cranjis and GT are representative of click bait sports media? Gotcha. Duly noted.

2) Last year's coaching staff was paid a pretty penny as well. How did that work out? Were you satisfied with the job they did?

3) LOL. Yeah, Thibs' Bulls were a real offensive powerhouse. Changed the game forever.

By this logic, a brilliant offensive coach should also be brilliant in the area of defense, no? And yet, MDA, a catalyst of the modern offense and one who has even been called an "offensive genius" by Kobe himself, has consistently coached teams that were awful defensively. So much so, in fact, that reverence for his offense is usually followed by an acknowledgment of how poor his teams have been defensively throughout his coaching career. Well, historically anyway. The Rockets suddenly became a top defensive team in recent years. You know why? Because the guy on the Pringles box finally hired a defensive specialist on his staff (Jeff Bzdelik).

Heck, even the Lakers became a good (and at times very good) defensive team during Luke's last two years because Brian Keefe took over as defensive coordinator. They were laughably bad during Luke's first year.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:45 am    Post subject:

Judah wrote:
Stumpy25 wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:
Judah wrote:
Based on the comments he made on Mannix's podcast, it sounds like Vogel definitely has ideas for the kind of offense he wants to run. The only problem is the how. It's good that his understanding of the game has evolved, it's just that that isn't enough. You need someone in there who understands the how.

Something GT pointed out consistently during the Luke era was that even though the sets the Lakers ran were pretty fine a lot of times, the real issues that came up was the lack of counters (which led to immediate confusion once the play broke down), and the lack of progression at going deeper into the sets they ran. But that's what you expect to happen when you have a non specialist (Mermuys) designing the offense. This is the stuff that people in this thread don't get. What we shouldn't want is for the Lakers to just get by on talent to make up for the lack of vision in their offense. That's basically what's been happening since the Byron era. A meh offense where very few of the points are created by the system and the majority just coming from guys having to create something on their own. That's also easy to scout for the defense. The Lakers' offense was so weak that teams knew exactly what to do to take them out of it, and they struggled to respond to it because neither Mermuys or anyone on the staff were apt offensive minds.

Help me understand... because I'm so, so lost after reading this post.

So we're paying a guy $5m a year for 3 years, for a total of $15m (i.e., fifteen million dollars, American $$s, not Iranian or Vietnamese or Ugandan or Somalian or Zimbabwean) to be our head coach... and you think that he may have ideas for the offense he wants to run but doesn't know how to put them into play... and that we are simply "going to just get by on talent"? How do you know, for sure, at this point in time, that his understanding has not evolved to a point where it will be enough and how will we know when it has evolved enough?? Is our head coach + all his assistant coaches (3 of them (!!!), who are all getting paid many millions in total too, also American $$s, not Iranian or Vietnamese or Ugandan or Somalian or Zimbabwean) + LeBron/AD/Rondo unable to do this as a collective? Why are we paying them all these valuable millions if they aren't able to perform this basic responsibility? Which "apt offensive mind" would you want us to hire so you can go into the season having 1000% confidence in the coaching staff and who would make winning the title a foregone conclusion?

I'd like to think that the Vogel/Kidd/Hollins/Handy hirings are NOT a result of affirmative action or nepotism (like with Byron Scott, who really shouldn't have gotten another job as a head coach after his first 2-3 failed gigs). What am I missing?? Perhaps you have the missing link??


The problem is that LG people talk without a clue of what they are saying. They just read sports media click bait articles, and think they have the inside on everything. Like you said all of these guys are getting payed mucho bucks and trust me they know what they're doing. Some coaches maybe labeled experts in defense but in reality to be an expert in defense you have to also be an expert in offense. One does not work without the other.

1)Ah, so guys like Cranjis and GT are representative of click bait sports media? Gotcha. Duly noted.

2) Last year's coaching staff was paid a pretty penny as well. How did that work out? Were you satisfied with the job they did?

3) LOL. Yeah, Thibs' Bulls were a real offensive powerhouse. Changed the game forever.

By this logic, a brilliant offensive coach should also be brilliant in the area of defense, no? And yet, MDA, a catalyst of the modern offense and one who has even been called an "offensive genius" by Kobe himself, has consistently coached teams that were awful defensively. So much so, in fact, that reverence for his offense is usually followed by an acknowledgment of how poor his teams have been defensively throughout his coaching career. Well, historically anyway. The Rockets suddenly became a top defensive team in recent years. You know why? Because the guy on the Pringles box finally hired a defensive specialist on his staff (Jeff Bzdelik).

Heck, even the Lakers became a good (and at times very good) defensive team during Luke's last two years because Brian Keefe took over as defensive coordinator. They were laughably bad during Luke's first year.


And again like you did with RAdams, you bring Defensive Assistants in different teams, but not a single OFFENSIVE Assistant mention. So basically, every head coach in the NBA use his offense, being a guru or not.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:10 pm    Post subject:

lakerican wrote:
Judah wrote:
Stumpy25 wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:
Judah wrote:
Based on the comments he made on Mannix's podcast, it sounds like Vogel definitely has ideas for the kind of offense he wants to run. The only problem is the how. It's good that his understanding of the game has evolved, it's just that that isn't enough. You need someone in there who understands the how.

Something GT pointed out consistently during the Luke era was that even though the sets the Lakers ran were pretty fine a lot of times, the real issues that came up was the lack of counters (which led to immediate confusion once the play broke down), and the lack of progression at going deeper into the sets they ran. But that's what you expect to happen when you have a non specialist (Mermuys) designing the offense. This is the stuff that people in this thread don't get. What we shouldn't want is for the Lakers to just get by on talent to make up for the lack of vision in their offense. That's basically what's been happening since the Byron era. A meh offense where very few of the points are created by the system and the majority just coming from guys having to create something on their own. That's also easy to scout for the defense. The Lakers' offense was so weak that teams knew exactly what to do to take them out of it, and they struggled to respond to it because neither Mermuys or anyone on the staff were apt offensive minds.

Help me understand... because I'm so, so lost after reading this post.

So we're paying a guy $5m a year for 3 years, for a total of $15m (i.e., fifteen million dollars, American $$s, not Iranian or Vietnamese or Ugandan or Somalian or Zimbabwean) to be our head coach... and you think that he may have ideas for the offense he wants to run but doesn't know how to put them into play... and that we are simply "going to just get by on talent"? How do you know, for sure, at this point in time, that his understanding has not evolved to a point where it will be enough and how will we know when it has evolved enough?? Is our head coach + all his assistant coaches (3 of them (!!!), who are all getting paid many millions in total too, also American $$s, not Iranian or Vietnamese or Ugandan or Somalian or Zimbabwean) + LeBron/AD/Rondo unable to do this as a collective? Why are we paying them all these valuable millions if they aren't able to perform this basic responsibility? Which "apt offensive mind" would you want us to hire so you can go into the season having 1000% confidence in the coaching staff and who would make winning the title a foregone conclusion?

I'd like to think that the Vogel/Kidd/Hollins/Handy hirings are NOT a result of affirmative action or nepotism (like with Byron Scott, who really shouldn't have gotten another job as a head coach after his first 2-3 failed gigs). What am I missing?? Perhaps you have the missing link??


The problem is that LG people talk without a clue of what they are saying. They just read sports media click bait articles, and think they have the inside on everything. Like you said all of these guys are getting payed mucho bucks and trust me they know what they're doing. Some coaches maybe labeled experts in defense but in reality to be an expert in defense you have to also be an expert in offense. One does not work without the other.

1)Ah, so guys like Cranjis and GT are representative of click bait sports media? Gotcha. Duly noted.

2) Last year's coaching staff was paid a pretty penny as well. How did that work out? Were you satisfied with the job they did?

3) LOL. Yeah, Thibs' Bulls were a real offensive powerhouse. Changed the game forever.

By this logic, a brilliant offensive coach should also be brilliant in the area of defense, no? And yet, MDA, a catalyst of the modern offense and one who has even been called an "offensive genius" by Kobe himself, has consistently coached teams that were awful defensively. So much so, in fact, that reverence for his offense is usually followed by an acknowledgment of how poor his teams have been defensively throughout his coaching career. Well, historically anyway. The Rockets suddenly became a top defensive team in recent years. You know why? Because the guy on the Pringles box finally hired a defensive specialist on his staff (Jeff Bzdelik).

Heck, even the Lakers became a good (and at times very good) defensive team during Luke's last two years because Brian Keefe took over as defensive coordinator. They were laughably bad during Luke's first year.


And again like you did with RAdams, you bring Defensive Assistants in different teams, but not a single OFFENSIVE Assistant mention. So basically, every head coach in the NBA use his offense, being a guru or not.



I mean, yeah, if you wanna completely ignore my points and just focus on the fact that I don't have the inside track on the top offensive geeks around the association, okay. Have at it. But you've only outed how fractured your ability to think is by believing this somehow proves that any and every head coach must be the sole offensive coordinator on his coaching staff. You went from Point A to Point F by skipping every letter in between. Not very impressive. I don't need to know who those guys are to know that the Lakers would be much better off if they had someone who actually specializes in offense. Between Hollins and Kidd, at least one of them should not have been hired so that an offense geek could've been hired instead.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:23 am    Post subject:

SD2Hollyweird wrote:
"The problem is that LG people talk without a clue of what they are saying."



They just read sports media click bait articles, and think they have the inside on everything.



"trust me"



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