Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:11 am Post subject: Re: Perimeter Pressure
malcolm wrote:
cheesehead88 wrote:
danzag wrote:
We need a true PG badly.
The problem is perimeter pressure
The way they are putting intense on ball pressure reminds me of Scottie Pippen vs Magic in the Finals
Bron can play point against a weak slow defender like DLO or Luka Donkic
Against Beverly and the very aggressive on ball pressure of the young Clipper legs there are two ways to beat pressure
You need to set hard back picks and off ball screens on Beverly’s man. Just over and over again. Just watch tapes of Karl Malone hammering Pippen over and over again in Jazz Bulls finals when Pippen trying to ball hawk Stockton. The Jazz almost did it. Pippen’s back on verge of collapsing. A 18 foot MJ jumper saved the Bulls.
The other way to beat ball pressure is run more Triangle pinch post action. Give and goes. Hard cutting.
Think Fisher and Harper making hard cuts to the corner. Horry and Kobe slashing to the hoop.
We aren’t getting a CP3 level point
Need more off ball screens or more triangle action
I'm sympathetic to your Triangle recommendation (maybe more than you can imagine).
But that's a political non-starter.
Any hint that Jackson and/or Rambis are trying to influence Vogel . . . is a PR nightmare.
just call it something else, weak side motions or something
Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:17 am Post subject: Re: Perimeter Pressure
governator wrote:
malcolm wrote:
cheesehead88 wrote:
danzag wrote:
We need a true PG badly.
The problem is perimeter pressure
The way they are putting intense on ball pressure reminds me of Scottie Pippen vs Magic in the Finals
Bron can play point against a weak slow defender like DLO or Luka Donkic
Against Beverly and the very aggressive on ball pressure of the young Clipper legs there are two ways to beat pressure
You need to set hard back picks and off ball screens on Beverly’s man. Just over and over again. Just watch tapes of Karl Malone hammering Pippen over and over again in Jazz Bulls finals when Pippen trying to ball hawk Stockton. The Jazz almost did it. Pippen’s back on verge of collapsing. A 18 foot MJ jumper saved the Bulls.
The other way to beat ball pressure is run more Triangle pinch post action. Give and goes. Hard cutting.
Think Fisher and Harper making hard cuts to the corner. Horry and Kobe slashing to the hoop.
We aren’t getting a CP3 level point
Need more off ball screens or more triangle action
I'm sympathetic to your Triangle recommendation (maybe more than you can imagine).
But that's a political non-starter.
Any hint that Jackson and/or Rambis are trying to influence Vogel . . . is a PR nightmare.
just call it something else, weak side motions or something
Maybe.
I just wish it WERE a Triangle offense . . . whatever you'd call it.
But I'm guessing the Lakers could go 0-82 and it would still be impossible to bring in the Triangle.
Strange prejudices people have . . . even with 3 championships notwithstanding.
Wait until you see the comments this post will get (!)
I thought they did show some of it stylistically, but didn’t cut and cause confusion nearly enough. Clippers just waited for the right time to ambush the play and bring help.
Lakers support players didn’t move enough and outside of Green no one made the clippers pay from 3.
I thought they did show some of it stylistically, but didn’t cut and cause confusion nearly enough. Clippers just waited for the right time to ambush the play and bring help.
Lakers support players didn’t move enough and outside of Green no one made the clippers pay from 3.
My opinion: Triangle is all or nothing.
It's not just some basketball plays that can be cut and paste.
I thought they did show some of it stylistically, but didn’t cut and cause confusion nearly enough. Clippers just waited for the right time to ambush the play and bring help.
Lakers support players didn’t move enough and outside of Green no one made the clippers pay from 3.
My opinion: Triangle is all or nothing.
It's not just some basketball plays that can be cut and paste.
It's a comprehensive basketball way of life . . .
Ok, just my opinion but I don’t think you can fully commit to the Triangle. It’s just too tough to play that way in today’s NBA.
I think that’s why you see the not all in approach. They would love Phil like success but they also see that system is outdated and creates spacing issues that are hard to overcome in 2019.
I thought they did show some of it stylistically, but didn’t cut and cause confusion nearly enough. Clippers just waited for the right time to ambush the play and bring help.
Lakers support players didn’t move enough and outside of Green no one made the clippers pay from 3.
My opinion: Triangle is all or nothing.
It's not just some basketball plays that can be cut and paste.
It's a comprehensive basketball way of life . . .
Ok, just my opinion but I don’t think you can fully commit to the Triangle. It’s just too tough to play that way in today’s NBA.
I think that’s why you see the not all in approach. They would love Phil like success but they also see that system is outdated and creates spacing issues that are hard to overcome in 2019.
I think it's an open question. Certainly Phil Jackson thinks so.
But he was his own worst enemy in New York.
Yes . . . he got seriously wrong-footed when Steve Kerr reneged
on deal to coach Knicks.
But Jackson's hire of Derek Fisher was very bad error in judgment.
He should have had courage of his convictions and gone with Rambis
from the beginning.
Then . . . Carmelo Anthony was NEVER going to be a Triangle fit.
Jackson should have aimed instead to bring in Gasol and Ariza (just
as he did Vujacic) and jump started Knicks Triangle in that way . . .
Last edited by malcolm on Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:10 am; edited 1 time in total
This game was about the benches disparity outmatching the disparity in superstar play (especially inside). Even though neither AD or Lebron had a strong game for their standards, the Lakers were in it and early on had a big lead. If AD and Lebron have a more typical shooting game, we win this one. The Clippers OTOH had all their strengths work for them - especially the bench.
Once the Clippers bench who have been playing together for years came in, and we did not have our 2 best bench perimeter players in Kuzma and Rondo, we had no chance to stay with them. Harrell and Williams just took over and took us to school. We needed AD and Lebron to do the same to their starting 5 and team, but AD only did for a short burst and Lebron was off (Lebron looked like he was trying to play Kobe's point guard to a big man role, something Lebron has to learn how to play, he has never catered a dominant bigman before).
The starters played well IMO. Considering that the Lakers did not have Lebron or AD going at the rate that you would like, and that the offense was really very simplistic.
To me the big wins in this game:
The way McGee and Howard played. They showed they will defend well. McGee had some exceptional moments early on. AD and our guards need to look for him on lobs and quick feeds in the basket. Same for Howard.
AD draws doubles and more - and will be a major factor inside. Teams will need to scramble and do a lot of helping. And when they do, this is when AD needs to learn to make the kick outs and the trust within the team will grow.
Danny Green is gonna be a reliable shooter who has to be respected.
Bradley is a legit 2-way guy. His defense was obvious. Need him to continue.
I like our starting 5 (with Dwight and McGee subbing in for each other) against anyone. With Dwight we have 6 really good reliable players. Now need to get Kuzma back, and Rondo. That will give us a reliable guard that can create plays, set up AD and others. And a shot creator, a wing that can match up with other scoring wings, most important give us some much needed punch off the bench.
I'm not bummed about this loss. I saw many good things. I like that Frank is using preseason and the RS to not try and win his job and the fans, instead on the longterm goal. I know pressure is immense on him, but I think he has a plan. The defensive effort of this group, is top notch. There is elite D written all over that top 6 guys (Dwight being the 6th). We need Kuzma back, we need Rondo to give us 18 minutes of high IQ play and active D. We will be a heck of a 2-way team.
This game was about the benches disparity outmatching the disparity in superstar play (especially inside). Even though neither AD or Lebron had a strong game for their standards, the Lakers were in it and early on had a big lead. If AD and Lebron have a more typical shooting game, we win this one. The Clippers OTOH had all their strengths work for them - especially the bench.
Once the Clippers bench who have been playing together for years came in, and we did not have our 2 best bench perimeter players in Kuzma and Rondo, we had no chance to stay with them. Harrell and Williams just took over and took us to school. We needed AD and Lebron to do the same to their starting 5 and team, but AD only did for a short burst and Lebron was off (Lebron looked like he was trying to play Kobe's point guard to a big man role, something Lebron has to learn how to play, he has never catered a dominant bigman before).
The starters played well IMO. Considering that the Lakers did not have Lebron or AD going at the rate that you would like, and that the offense was really very simplistic.
To me the big wins in this game:
The way McGee and Howard played. They showed they will defend well. McGee had some exceptional moments early on. AD and our guards need to look for him on lobs and quick feeds in the basket. Same for Howard.
AD draws doubles and more - and will be a major factor inside. Teams will need to scramble and do a lot of helping. And when they do, this is when AD needs to learn to make the kick outs and the trust within the team will grow.
Danny Green is gonna be a reliable shooter who has to be respected.
Bradley is a legit 2-way guy. His defense was obvious. Need him to continue.
I like our starting 5 (with Dwight and McGee subbing in for each other) against anyone. With Dwight we have 6 really good reliable players. Now need to get Kuzma back, and Rondo. That will give us a reliable guard that can create plays, set up AD and others. And a shot creator, a wing that can match up with other scoring wings, most important give us some much needed punch off the bench.
I'm not bummed about this loss. I saw many good things. I like that Frank is using preseason and the RS to not try and win his job and the fans, instead on the longterm goal. I know pressure is immense on him, but I think he has a plan. The defensive effort of this group, is top notch. There is elite D written all over that top 6 guys (Dwight being the 6th). We need Kuzma back, we need Rondo to give us 18 minutes of high IQ play and active D. We will be a heck of a 2-way team.
These are my sentiments exactly. I feel like if the team shot a little better, we would have been right there. Everything clicked for the Clips in this game including their shooting. Just one of those nights where one team went super hot and nothing you can do. In the end I believe averages will play out.
This game was about the benches disparity outmatching the disparity in superstar play (especially inside). Even though neither AD or Lebron had a strong game for their standards, the Lakers were in it and early on had a big lead. If AD and Lebron have a more typical shooting game, we win this one. The Clippers OTOH had all their strengths work for them - especially the bench.
Once the Clippers bench who have been playing together for years came in, and we did not have our 2 best bench perimeter players in Kuzma and Rondo, we had no chance to stay with them. Harrell and Williams just took over and took us to school. We needed AD and Lebron to do the same to their starting 5 and team, but AD only did for a short burst and Lebron was off (Lebron looked like he was trying to play Kobe's point guard to a big man role, something Lebron has to learn how to play, he has never catered a dominant bigman before).
The starters played well IMO. Considering that the Lakers did not have Lebron or AD going at the rate that you would like, and that the offense was really very simplistic.
To me the big wins in this game:
The way McGee and Howard played. They showed they will defend well. McGee had some exceptional moments early on. AD and our guards need to look for him on lobs and quick feeds in the basket. Same for Howard.
AD draws doubles and more - and will be a major factor inside. Teams will need to scramble and do a lot of helping. And when they do, this is when AD needs to learn to make the kick outs and the trust within the team will grow.
Danny Green is gonna be a reliable shooter who has to be respected.
Bradley is a legit 2-way guy. His defense was obvious. Need him to continue.
I like our starting 5 (with Dwight and McGee subbing in for each other) against anyone. With Dwight we have 6 really good reliable players. Now need to get Kuzma back, and Rondo. That will give us a reliable guard that can create plays, set up AD and others. And a shot creator, a wing that can match up with other scoring wings, most important give us some much needed punch off the bench.
I'm not bummed about this loss. I saw many good things. I like that Frank is using preseason and the RS to not try and win his job and the fans, instead on the longterm goal. I know pressure is immense on him, but I think he has a plan. The defensive effort of this group, is top notch. There is elite D written all over that top 6 guys (Dwight being the 6th). We need Kuzma back, we need Rondo to give us 18 minutes of high IQ play and active D. We will be a heck of a 2-way team.
Joined: 16 Apr 2001 Posts: 12193 Location: Pasadena, CA
Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:03 am Post subject:
danzag wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
This game was about the benches disparity outmatching the disparity in superstar play (especially inside). Even though neither AD or Lebron had a strong game for their standards, the Lakers were in it and early on had a big lead. If AD and Lebron have a more typical shooting game, we win this one. The Clippers OTOH had all their strengths work for them - especially the bench.
Once the Clippers bench who have been playing together for years came in, and we did not have our 2 best bench perimeter players in Kuzma and Rondo, we had no chance to stay with them. Harrell and Williams just took over and took us to school. We needed AD and Lebron to do the same to their starting 5 and team, but AD only did for a short burst and Lebron was off (Lebron looked like he was trying to play Kobe's point guard to a big man role, something Lebron has to learn how to play, he has never catered a dominant bigman before).
The starters played well IMO. Considering that the Lakers did not have Lebron or AD going at the rate that you would like, and that the offense was really very simplistic.
To me the big wins in this game:
The way McGee and Howard played. They showed they will defend well. McGee had some exceptional moments early on. AD and our guards need to look for him on lobs and quick feeds in the basket. Same for Howard.
AD draws doubles and more - and will be a major factor inside. Teams will need to scramble and do a lot of helping. And when they do, this is when AD needs to learn to make the kick outs and the trust within the team will grow.
Danny Green is gonna be a reliable shooter who has to be respected.
Bradley is a legit 2-way guy. His defense was obvious. Need him to continue.
I like our starting 5 (with Dwight and McGee subbing in for each other) against anyone. With Dwight we have 6 really good reliable players. Now need to get Kuzma back, and Rondo. That will give us a reliable guard that can create plays, set up AD and others. And a shot creator, a wing that can match up with other scoring wings, most important give us some much needed punch off the bench.
I'm not bummed about this loss. I saw many good things. I like that Frank is using preseason and the RS to not try and win his job and the fans, instead on the longterm goal. I know pressure is immense on him, but I think he has a plan. The defensive effort of this group, is top notch. There is elite D written all over that top 6 guys (Dwight being the 6th). We need Kuzma back, we need Rondo to give us 18 minutes of high IQ play and active D. We will be a heck of a 2-way team.
Spot on Wolf!! No other post should be read after that. What a perfect analysis. I saw it exactly like this also.
One thing to add, Vogel has to prevent too much iso ball and too much Lebron expending his energy on the offensive end. He can't run out of gas in the 4th.
Even with all our problems (too much ISO, no wing defense, lack of bench scoring, KCP going bagel) it was a close game.
Lakers were there until the end.
The media coverage of Kawhi, and in particular Reggie Miller's comments are starting to make me worry about revisionist history. Miller commented about how "square" Kawhi was with his shot and taking it back to his days growing up in Riverside.
I think some of this is hogwash and I personally don't think Kawhi is that great. I think he gets the benefit of the doubt, a ton, on defense. But if you review Kawhi's college stats, it begins to come in to focus just how much people are now underselling what the Spurs did to develop him.
Keep in mind, Kawhi went to SDSU and played for Steve Fisher. He was the 48 or 49 ranked player in his class. In 2009 - 2010, Kawhi averaged 12.7 and 9.9. He shot .455 from the field. I saw his games. He was an awful shooter and his "squaring up" was not there. In 2010 - 2011, Kawhi averaged 15.5 and 10.6. He shot .444 from the field. Yes, worse. His FT percentage those years was .730 roughly; not bad. But going in to the draft, I viewed him as a Shawn Marion: a rebounder and garbage player. His shooting and approach changed with the Spurs. Completely. The speed and style of his play has changed. His game changed.
Watch these highlights and you can see a HUGE change:
I disagree with Reggie Miller wholeheartedly and find the media "rewrite" on some of this disconcerting.
Next, the Lakers saw what every team will do to them this season with their size: clog the paint. The Lakers need to create space. Would a Caruso or Rondo have made a difference last night? I think so.
Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 8125 Location: Born and Raised in Los Angeles, now living in Manhattan, NY.
Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:29 am Post subject:
christopherorman wrote:
The media coverage of Kawhi, and in particular Reggie Miller's comments are starting to make me worry about revisionist history. Miller commented about how "square" Kawhi was with his shot and taking it back to his days growing up in Riverside.
I think some of this is hogwash and I personally don't think Kawhi is that great. I think he gets the benefit of the doubt, a ton, on defense. But if you review Kawhi's college stats, it begins to come in to focus just how much people are now underselling what the Spurs did to develop him.
Keep in mind, Kawhi went to SDSU and played for Steve Fisher. He was the 48 or 49 ranked player in his class. In 2009 - 2010, Kawhi averaged 12.7 and 9.9. He shot .455 from the field. I saw his games. He was an awful shooter and his "squaring up" was not there. In 2010 - 2011, Kawhi averaged 15.5 and 10.6. He shot .444 from the field. Yes, worse. His FT percentage those years was .730 roughly; not bad. But going in to the draft, I viewed him as a Shawn Marion: a rebounder and garbage player. His shooting and approach changed with the Spurs. Completely. The speed and style of his play has changed. His game changed.
Watch these highlights and you can see a HUGE change:
I disagree with Reggie Miller wholeheartedly and find the media "rewrite" on some of this disconcerting.
Next, the Lakers saw what every team will do to them this season with their size: clog the paint. The Lakers need to create space. Would a Caruso or Rondo have made a difference last night? I think so.
There's alot of ball washing by the media when it comes to Kawhi. It's impossible to listen to a single sports show today without the media residing to hyperbole.
Compared to the Clippers, we looked soft. That would worry me if it was Christmas or later. At this point in the season, it doesn’t. These guys will develop an identity.
Thanks for the recap. The Clippers just picked up where they left off, but added Kawhi. I don’t foresee LeBron and AD disappearing like that in future games. Definitely need to see Kuzma come out as consistent high producer off the bench. The Clippers showed they’re going to be a problem for everyone _________________ "We are the goodest." - Shaq ESPN interview
For a team that was just thrown together, including the coach, they did well. A lot of iso ball, stars taking turns, lack of cohesion, lineup testing and they were in it until mid-4th.
LBJ forced the issue too much and didn't trust the jumper. AD petered out in the 2nd half. It's been awhile since he's played a full NBA game. Loved Danny Green.
I thought they did show some of it stylistically, but didn’t cut and cause confusion nearly enough. Clippers just waited for the right time to ambush the play and bring help.
Lakers support players didn’t move enough and outside of Green no one made the clippers pay from 3.
My opinion: Triangle is all or nothing.
It's not just some basketball plays that can be cut and paste.
It's a comprehensive basketball way of life . . .
Ok, just my opinion but I don’t think you can fully commit to the Triangle. It’s just too tough to play that way in today’s NBA.
I think that’s why you see the not all in approach. They would love Phil like success but they also see that system is outdated and creates spacing issues that are hard to overcome in 2019.
Yes, they ran some triangle elements a little. Some of the split cut action to start the second half for example. Some of their reads on certain sequences very much have the same types of actions and counters. They just are not very good at it right now.
As big a fan I was of the triangle, I don’t think it’s right for today’s game where it’s more effective to open up the floor and driving lanes for good chunks of the game. And when it got down to it in the fourth quarters of games, Phil would actually turn to the two-man game to close anyway.
The team is certainly built for the way the triangle didn’t need a playmaking PG. So I do think we will likely see some of those types of actions and penetration via the pass. But we can absolutely thrive if we can get consistent dribble penetration and pressure on the rim. That’s when we will be at our best. You’ve got to get LeBron attacking the paint with speed or attacking in two-man scenarios as much as you can.
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