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Laker_Dynasty_01
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Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 1703
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 Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Luminous8 wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | Kobesystem wrote: | | Still think he will get traded before the deadline. Along with Lonzo. |
And I think he should be. I don’t see his game meshing with Zion’s.
I still don’t see much special with BI. I think if the lakers had developed him right (emphasize D first and brought the offensive responsibility along slowly) he could have wound up PG or Butler level. Now I see his ceiling as more of a derozan level player |
So basically only an all NBA player? |
Yup which is a nice ceiling but certainly nothing to worry about losing for AD. I don’t think he can be a cornerstone franchise guy |
I agree, Ingram can be a good complimentary player. And the same for AD. |
Yes, I see Ingram high-fiving and complimenting teammates all the time.
As for being a complementary player, Ingram doesn't score the bulk of his field goals off of assists, so he could only complement guys like Steph and Klay, who are off ball superstars.
But AD is clearly on another level, he had a 59/20 game at age 22. He led a team with similar talent to the playoffs (when Jrue missed 42 games), while younger than Ingram is now. He was an all-star at age 20. |
Who's comparing Ingram to AD?? Considering Ingram's current three point percentage based on catch and shoots, he would have no problem at all fitting with AD and Bron.. The fit narratives still persist I see. In spite of Ingram figuring out how to perform in every role he's been given. |
In this entirely hypothetical scenario (as AD is a Celtic if Ingram was pulled from the deal), we'd be maxing out a young player with all-star potential, then limiting him in a 3&D role as the starting 2.
The few times he would get to use his talent on-ball, he'd have smaller players guarding him with no spacing to attack the rim. So, lots of fadeaway Js. And we'd be nearly hard-capped to boot with ~$110M spread across three players and Deng. |
Except that he and Bron had finally figured it out. It’s not like he’s the only guy handling the ball in. NEw Orleans. They’ve got plenty of ball handlers and Ingram isn’t even the primary one. Holiday still runs the offense |
Holiday runs the offense, but doesn't dominate the ball like LeBron and AD. When Zion gets back, you'll see my point.
If LeBron and BI "figuring it out" is going 2-4 in the last six games together (mostly against lotto teams), glad the FO figured they needed to make a trade.
If Davis, Ingram, and LeBron played together, someone would see their numbers suffer. Only four teams have had three 20-point scorers, and in each case, at least one player was playing off-ball significantly (Stephen Jackson in 2008, Chris Mullin in 1991, Klay in 2017 & 2018). Jackson and Ellis barely averaged 20. |
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Luminous8
Star Player
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
Posts: 2192
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | Luminous8 wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | Kobesystem wrote: | | Still think he will get traded before the deadline. Along with Lonzo. |
And I think he should be. I don’t see his game meshing with Zion’s.
I still don’t see much special with BI. I think if the lakers had developed him right (emphasize D first and brought the offensive responsibility along slowly) he could have wound up PG or Butler level. Now I see his ceiling as more of a derozan level player |
So basically only an all NBA player? |
Yup which is a nice ceiling but certainly nothing to worry about losing for AD. I don’t think he can be a cornerstone franchise guy |
I agree, Ingram can be a good complimentary player. And the same for AD. |
Yes, I see Ingram high-fiving and complimenting teammates all the time.
As for being a complementary player, Ingram doesn't score the bulk of his field goals off of assists, so he could only complement guys like Steph and Klay, who are off ball superstars.
But AD is clearly on another level, he had a 59/20 game at age 22. He led a team with similar talent to the playoffs (when Jrue missed 42 games), while younger than Ingram is now. He was an all-star at age 20. |
Who's comparing Ingram to AD?? Considering Ingram's current three point percentage based on catch and shoots, he would have no problem at all fitting with AD and Bron.. The fit narratives still persist I see. In spite of Ingram figuring out how to perform in every role he's been given. |
In this entirely hypothetical scenario (as AD is a Celtic if Ingram was pulled from the deal), we'd be maxing out a young player with all-star potential, then limiting him in a 3&D role as the starting 2.
The few times he would get to use his talent on-ball, he'd have smaller players guarding him with no spacing to attack the rim. So, lots of fadeaway Js. And we'd be nearly hard-capped to boot with ~$110M spread across three players and Deng. |
Except that he and Bron had finally figured it out. It’s not like he’s the only guy handling the ball in. NEw Orleans. They’ve got plenty of ball handlers and Ingram isn’t even the primary one. Holiday still runs the offense |
Holiday runs the offense, but doesn't dominate the ball like LeBron and AD. When Zion gets back, you'll see my point.
If LeBron and BI "figuring it out" is going 2-4 in the last six games together (mostly against lotto teams), glad the FO figured they needed to make a trade.
If Davis, Ingram, and LeBron played together, someone would see their numbers suffer. Only four teams have had three 20-point scorers, and in each case, at least one player was playing off-ball significantly (Stephen Jackson in 2008, Chris Mullin in 1991, Klay in 2017 & 2018). Jackson and Ellis barely averaged 20. |
Stephen Jackson didn’t play off ball. He handled the ball as a point forward quite often.
Then you have more recent occurrence such as hmm I don’t know maybe It, Rudy Gay, and DMC. None of which were guys I’d call
Off ball scorers. So please stop the rhetoric. Hell this year alone the Clippers have THREE 20 ppg scorers and a 19 ppg. And why are you acting like BI is only scoring on the ball when they run a lot of off ball
Movement for him. I get it, you’re living off of his past play style, but perhaps try and actually watch their games before you speak on this type of stuff my friend. |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If Davis, Ingram, and LeBron played together... |
I would have loved to have this "problem."
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From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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governator
Retired Number
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 25086
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | Kobesystem wrote: | | Still think he will get traded before the deadline. Along with Lonzo. |
And I think he should be. I don’t see his game meshing with Zion’s.
I still don’t see much special with BI. I think if the lakers had developed him right (emphasize D first and brought the offensive responsibility along slowly) he could have wound up PG or Butler level. Now I see his ceiling as more of a derozan level player |
So basically only an all NBA player? |
Yup which is a nice ceiling but certainly nothing to worry about losing for AD. I don’t think he can be a cornerstone franchise guy |
I agree, Ingram can be a good complimentary player. And the same for AD. |
Do yo u think AD is a complimentary player (like role player? or another definition?)? |
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55
Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 12092
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | Kobesystem wrote: | | Still think he will get traded before the deadline. Along with Lonzo. |
And I think he should be. I don’t see his game meshing with Zion’s.
I still don’t see much special with BI. I think if the lakers had developed him right (emphasize D first and brought the offensive responsibility along slowly) he could have wound up PG or Butler level. Now I see his ceiling as more of a derozan level player |
So basically only an all NBA player? |
Yup which is a nice ceiling but certainly nothing to worry about losing for AD. I don’t think he can be a cornerstone franchise guy |
I agree, Ingram can be a good complimentary player. And the same for AD. |
Do yo u think AD is a complimentary player (like role player? or another definition?)? |
Easy concept: The more you lower AD's value as a player, the worst the trade looks. Same goes the other way around.
We all know AD is major star in this league, except the ones who want to diminish the quality of the trade and bash the FO for giving "too much". |
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Annihilator
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Joined: 02 Jul 2001
Posts: 4035
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| 55 wrote: | | governator wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | Kobesystem wrote: | | Still think he will get traded before the deadline. Along with Lonzo. |
And I think he should be. I don’t see his game meshing with Zion’s.
I still don’t see much special with BI. I think if the lakers had developed him right (emphasize D first and brought the offensive responsibility along slowly) he could have wound up PG or Butler level. Now I see his ceiling as more of a derozan level player |
So basically only an all NBA player? |
Yup which is a nice ceiling but certainly nothing to worry about losing for AD. I don’t think he can be a cornerstone franchise guy |
I agree, Ingram can be a good complimentary player. And the same for AD. |
Do yo u think AD is a complimentary player (like role player? or another definition?)? |
Easy concept: The more you lower AD's value as a player, the worst the trade looks. Same goes the other way around.
We all know AD is major star in this league, except the ones who want to diminish the quality of the trade and bash the FO for giving "too much". |
 At this point, it looks like the Lakers got the much better part of the deal. It is very hard to argue otherwise. That point of view, however, may change based on what happens in the future.
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“When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”
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venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144462
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | Kobesystem wrote: | | Still think he will get traded before the deadline. Along with Lonzo. |
And I think he should be. I don’t see his game meshing with Zion’s.
I still don’t see much special with BI. I think if the lakers had developed him right (emphasize D first and brought the offensive responsibility along slowly) he could have wound up PG or Butler level. Now I see his ceiling as more of a derozan level player |
So basically only an all NBA player? |
Yup which is a nice ceiling but certainly nothing to worry about losing for AD. I don’t think he can be a cornerstone franchise guy |
I agree, Ingram can be a good complimentary player. And the same for AD. |
Do yo u think AD is a complimentary player (like role player? or another definition?)? |
He has shown he isn’t an alpha that can lead a good team.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Laker_Dynasty_01
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Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 1703
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Luminous8 wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | Luminous8 wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | Kobesystem wrote: | | Still think he will get traded before the deadline. Along with Lonzo. |
And I think he should be. I don’t see his game meshing with Zion’s.
I still don’t see much special with BI. I think if the lakers had developed him right (emphasize D first and brought the offensive responsibility along slowly) he could have wound up PG or Butler level. Now I see his ceiling as more of a derozan level player |
So basically only an all NBA player? |
Yup which is a nice ceiling but certainly nothing to worry about losing for AD. I don’t think he can be a cornerstone franchise guy |
I agree, Ingram can be a good complimentary player. And the same for AD. |
Yes, I see Ingram high-fiving and complimenting teammates all the time.
As for being a complementary player, Ingram doesn't score the bulk of his field goals off of assists, so he could only complement guys like Steph and Klay, who are off ball superstars.
But AD is clearly on another level, he had a 59/20 game at age 22. He led a team with similar talent to the playoffs (when Jrue missed 42 games), while younger than Ingram is now. He was an all-star at age 20. |
Who's comparing Ingram to AD?? Considering Ingram's current three point percentage based on catch and shoots, he would have no problem at all fitting with AD and Bron.. The fit narratives still persist I see. In spite of Ingram figuring out how to perform in every role he's been given. |
In this entirely hypothetical scenario (as AD is a Celtic if Ingram was pulled from the deal), we'd be maxing out a young player with all-star potential, then limiting him in a 3&D role as the starting 2.
The few times he would get to use his talent on-ball, he'd have smaller players guarding him with no spacing to attack the rim. So, lots of fadeaway Js. And we'd be nearly hard-capped to boot with ~$110M spread across three players and Deng. |
Except that he and Bron had finally figured it out. It’s not like he’s the only guy handling the ball in. NEw Orleans. They’ve got plenty of ball handlers and Ingram isn’t even the primary one. Holiday still runs the offense |
Holiday runs the offense, but doesn't dominate the ball like LeBron and AD. When Zion gets back, you'll see my point.
If LeBron and BI "figuring it out" is going 2-4 in the last six games together (mostly against lotto teams), glad the FO figured they needed to make a trade.
If Davis, Ingram, and LeBron played together, someone would see their numbers suffer. Only four teams have had three 20-point scorers, and in each case, at least one player was playing off-ball significantly (Stephen Jackson in 2008, Chris Mullin in 1991, Klay in 2017 & 2018). Jackson and Ellis barely averaged 20. |
Stephen Jackson didn’t play off ball. He handled the ball as a point forward quite often.
Then you have more recent occurrence such as hmm I don’t know maybe It, Rudy Gay, and DMC. None of which were guys I’d call
Off ball scorers. So please stop the rhetoric. Hell this year alone the Clippers have THREE 20 ppg scorers and a 19 ppg. And why are you acting like BI is only scoring on the ball when they run a lot of off ball
Movement for him. I get it, you’re living off of his past play style, but perhaps try and actually watch their games before you speak on this type of stuff my friend. |
IT, Rudy Gay, and DMC did each average 20. Yet, Rudy missed 27 games, and IT didn't start in 28 games. Elias Sports Bureau doesn't count this team as having three 20 point scorers who played together, and they were 28-54 anyway.
BI is getting just 30% of his two point shots off of assists. This is not what a good off ball player's shooting stats look like.
The Warriors Big 3 in 2008 each averaged 37-39 minutes per game to get their 20 point averages (each barely averaged 20-21), there were definitely chemistry issues. Monta and Stephen Jackson did get half of their field goals off of assists, even if Jackson ran some point forward. They also missed the playoffs, but did win 48.
As for the Clippers, does Lou start? No! And Kawhi has missed six games, PG 11. Let's see what they end up averaging together. Trez plays better off ball than anyone we have (and his putbacks count as off-ball), and most of PG's buckets are off assists. So, the Clippers do not disprove my point. |
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SocalDevin
Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | Luminous8 wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | Luminous8 wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | Kobesystem wrote: | | Still think he will get traded before the deadline. Along with Lonzo. |
And I think he should be. I don’t see his game meshing with Zion’s.
I still don’t see much special with BI. I think if the lakers had developed him right (emphasize D first and brought the offensive responsibility along slowly) he could have wound up PG or Butler level. Now I see his ceiling as more of a derozan level player |
So basically only an all NBA player? |
Yup which is a nice ceiling but certainly nothing to worry about losing for AD. I don’t think he can be a cornerstone franchise guy |
I agree, Ingram can be a good complimentary player. And the same for AD. |
Yes, I see Ingram high-fiving and complimenting teammates all the time.
As for being a complementary player, Ingram doesn't score the bulk of his field goals off of assists, so he could only complement guys like Steph and Klay, who are off ball superstars.
But AD is clearly on another level, he had a 59/20 game at age 22. He led a team with similar talent to the playoffs (when Jrue missed 42 games), while younger than Ingram is now. He was an all-star at age 20. |
Who's comparing Ingram to AD?? Considering Ingram's current three point percentage based on catch and shoots, he would have no problem at all fitting with AD and Bron.. The fit narratives still persist I see. In spite of Ingram figuring out how to perform in every role he's been given. |
In this entirely hypothetical scenario (as AD is a Celtic if Ingram was pulled from the deal), we'd be maxing out a young player with all-star potential, then limiting him in a 3&D role as the starting 2.
The few times he would get to use his talent on-ball, he'd have smaller players guarding him with no spacing to attack the rim. So, lots of fadeaway Js. And we'd be nearly hard-capped to boot with ~$110M spread across three players and Deng. |
Except that he and Bron had finally figured it out. It’s not like he’s the only guy handling the ball in. NEw Orleans. They’ve got plenty of ball handlers and Ingram isn’t even the primary one. Holiday still runs the offense |
Holiday runs the offense, but doesn't dominate the ball like LeBron and AD. When Zion gets back, you'll see my point.
If LeBron and BI "figuring it out" is going 2-4 in the last six games together (mostly against lotto teams), glad the FO figured they needed to make a trade.
If Davis, Ingram, and LeBron played together, someone would see their numbers suffer. Only four teams have had three 20-point scorers, and in each case, at least one player was playing off-ball significantly (Stephen Jackson in 2008, Chris Mullin in 1991, Klay in 2017 & 2018). Jackson and Ellis barely averaged 20. |
Stephen Jackson didn’t play off ball. He handled the ball as a point forward quite often.
Then you have more recent occurrence such as hmm I don’t know maybe It, Rudy Gay, and DMC. None of which were guys I’d call
Off ball scorers. So please stop the rhetoric. Hell this year alone the Clippers have THREE 20 ppg scorers and a 19 ppg. And why are you acting like BI is only scoring on the ball when they run a lot of off ball
Movement for him. I get it, you’re living off of his past play style, but perhaps try and actually watch their games before you speak on this type of stuff my friend. |
IT, Rudy Gay, and DMC did each average 20. Yet, Rudy missed 27 games, and IT didn't start in 28 games. Elias Sports Bureau doesn't count this team as having three 20 point scorers who played together, and they were 28-54 anyway.
BI is getting just 30% of his two point shots off of assists. This is not what a good off ball player's shooting stats look like.
The Warriors Big 3 in 2008 each averaged 37-39 minutes per game to get their 20 point averages (each barely averaged 20-21), there were definitely chemistry issues. Monta and Stephen Jackson did get half of their field goals off of assists, even if Jackson ran some point forward. They also missed the playoffs, but did win 48.
As for the Clippers, does Lou start? No! And Kawhi has missed six games, PG 11. Let's see what they end up averaging together. Trez plays better off ball than anyone we have (and his putbacks count as off-ball), and most of PG's buckets are off assists. So, the Clippers do not disprove my point. |
Have you even watched the games he's playing in???
There is only one guy setting others up for opportunities to score and that's Jrue, so of course Ingram is going to have to create most of his opportunities. That doesn't mean he can't play off-ball.. |
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Laker_Dynasty_01
Star Player
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 1703
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | If Davis, Ingram, and LeBron played together... |
I would have loved to have this "problem." |
I'm not keen on the Lakers handing out a max extension to have Ingram in a 3&D role as the starting SG.
And unless we signed BI to the max extension Simmons got before this season (unlikely), things could get tricky if BI were unhappy with his role. Of course we could match any offer sheet for him, but that would give him a one year NTC. He could threaten to use his veto power on any trade should the Lakers match, and this would compel the Lakers to seek out a S&T rather than being stuck with a disgruntled player whose trade value would probably drop in his restricted role. |
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Laker_Dynasty_01
Star Player
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 1703
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| SocalDevin wrote: |
Have you even watched the games he's playing in???
There is only one guy setting others up for opportunities to score and that's Jrue, so of course Ingram is going to have to create most of his opportunities. That doesn't mean he can't play off-ball.. |
Of course Jrue is the only other creator on the roster now. But a good off ball player doesn't need multiple playmakers to create for him. Jrue and a facilitator like Ball should be all he needs.
He's not that quick on his cuts, and gets bumped off track easily due to the unfortunate laws of physics. Even with LeBron instead of Jrue, his stats were similar last season. He'd have to cut against even quicker players if he played for us, as he'd be guarding/guarded by the opposing SG with our starters.
If Zion comes back, averages around 20, and Ingram/Holiday are still putting up similar numbers, then I'll have crow to eat. But until then... |
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SocalDevin
Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: |
Have you even watched the games he's playing in???
There is only one guy setting others up for opportunities to score and that's Jrue, so of course Ingram is going to have to create most of his opportunities. That doesn't mean he can't play off-ball.. |
Of course Jrue is the only other creator on the roster now. But a good off ball player doesn't need multiple playmakers to create for him. Jrue and a facilitator like Ball should be all he needs.
He's not that quick on his cuts, and gets bumped off track easily due to the unfortunate laws of physics. Even with LeBron instead of Jrue, his stats were similar last season. He'd have to cut against even quicker players if he played for us, as he'd be guarding/guarded by the opposing SG with our starters.
If Zion comes back, averages around 20, and Ingram/Holiday are still putting up similar numbers, then I'll have crow to eat. But until then... |
You're not making any sense at all boss.. Not even a little bit of sense lol.. With all due respect.
"But a good off ball player doesn't need multiple playmakers to create for him. Jrue and a facilitator like Ball should be all he needs."
A bit oxymoronic no? Off ball players rely on others or a system to create their open looks, so your statement that a good off ball player doesn't need multiple playmakers is a head scratcher. And if you've been watching the Pels games you'd know that Ball doesn't create anything for anybody. Which makes your assessment laughable.
Bottom line is you're trying to poke holes in the game of a guy that's a top 10 scorer who's a league leader in FG and 3pt FG%s..
Anybody trying to still question Ingram's fit or game is clearly a hater at this point. |
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Laker_Dynasty_01
Star Player
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 1703
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| SocalDevin wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: |
Have you even watched the games he's playing in???
There is only one guy setting others up for opportunities to score and that's Jrue, so of course Ingram is going to have to create most of his opportunities. That doesn't mean he can't play off-ball.. |
Of course Jrue is the only other creator on the roster now. But a good off ball player doesn't need multiple playmakers to create for him. Jrue and a facilitator like Ball should be all he needs.
He's not that quick on his cuts, and gets bumped off track easily due to the unfortunate laws of physics. Even with LeBron instead of Jrue, his stats were similar last season. He'd have to cut against even quicker players if he played for us, as he'd be guarding/guarded by the opposing SG with our starters.
If Zion comes back, averages around 20, and Ingram/Holiday are still putting up similar numbers, then I'll have crow to eat. But until then... |
You're not making any sense at all boss.. Not even a little bit of sense lol.. With all due respect.
"But a good off ball player doesn't need multiple playmakers to create for him. Jrue and a facilitator like Ball should be all he needs."
A bit oxymoronic no? Off ball players rely on others or a system to create their open looks, so your statement that a good off ball player doesn't need multiple playmakers is a head scratcher. And if you've been watching the Pels games you'd know that Ball doesn't create anything for anybody. Which makes your assessment laughable.
Bottom line is you're trying to poke holes in the game of a guy that's a top 10 scorer who's a league leader in FG and 3pt FG%s..
Anybody trying to still question Ingram's fit or game is clearly a hater at this point. |
I called Ball a facilitator, in other words, someone who makes good passes without drawing help defenders or creating. I'm on record saying Ball can't draw help defenders or create, fwiw. He's Greg Paulus at Duke.
You don't need any complicated system to play off ball. Just need agility and quick bursts of speed, and savvy (or the ability to catch lobs). And a couple refrigerator-types on the roster to set screens. Klay and Steph can do this to perfection, even with just Draymond/Iguodala/Livingston making the passes. The Warriors system doesn't require even one traditional playmaker. Steph created assists for his team on possessions w/o touching the ball, at times.
Oh, and Gentry was on Kerr's staff in 2015. |
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MJST
Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 26309
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:24 am Post subject: |
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Lonzo (first 6 games of the season before getting hurt)
12 PPG
5.0 RPG
7.3 APG
38% from Three
Subsequent 5 games after injury, including 6 games straight he didn't play and 3 he had to come off the bench while still not 100%)
10 PPG
3.0 RPG
3.8 APG
30% from Three
Missed the next 2 games still recovering. Before coming back just now to play one good game and one bad game.
The reality is, we won't see what Ball is capable of fully till he's out there for a consistent period of time and healthy. The start he was on at the beginning of the season was a good one, but it got derailed when he got hurt and he hasn't caught all the way back up yet, nor would he.
So he'll need to be on the court more first. Long as you aren't crickets when he plays well, and then active when he plays poorly, you should get an accurate assessment.
_________________
How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk |
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SocalDevin
Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: |
Have you even watched the games he's playing in???
There is only one guy setting others up for opportunities to score and that's Jrue, so of course Ingram is going to have to create most of his opportunities. That doesn't mean he can't play off-ball.. |
Of course Jrue is the only other creator on the roster now. But a good off ball player doesn't need multiple playmakers to create for him. Jrue and a facilitator like Ball should be all he needs.
He's not that quick on his cuts, and gets bumped off track easily due to the unfortunate laws of physics. Even with LeBron instead of Jrue, his stats were similar last season. He'd have to cut against even quicker players if he played for us, as he'd be guarding/guarded by the opposing SG with our starters.
If Zion comes back, averages around 20, and Ingram/Holiday are still putting up similar numbers, then I'll have crow to eat. But until then... |
You're not making any sense at all boss.. Not even a little bit of sense lol.. With all due respect.
"But a good off ball player doesn't need multiple playmakers to create for him. Jrue and a facilitator like Ball should be all he needs."
A bit oxymoronic no? Off ball players rely on others or a system to create their open looks, so your statement that a good off ball player doesn't need multiple playmakers is a head scratcher. And if you've been watching the Pels games you'd know that Ball doesn't create anything for anybody. Which makes your assessment laughable.
Bottom line is you're trying to poke holes in the game of a guy that's a top 10 scorer who's a league leader in FG and 3pt FG%s..
Anybody trying to still question Ingram's fit or game is clearly a hater at this point. |
I called Ball a facilitator, in other words, someone who makes good passes without drawing help defenders or creating. I'm on record saying Ball can't draw help defenders or create, fwiw. He's Greg Paulus at Duke.
You don't need any complicated system to play off ball. Just need agility and quick bursts of speed, and savvy (or the ability to catch lobs). And a couple refrigerator-types on the roster to set screens. Klay and Steph can do this to perfection, even with just Draymond/Iguodala/Livingston making the passes. The Warriors system doesn't require even one traditional playmaker. Steph created assists for his team on possessions w/o touching the ball, at times.
Oh, and Gentry was on Kerr's staff in 2015. |
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say anymore, or if it even matters.
Just based on Ingram's 3pt percentage your argument that he can't play off-ball is bogus. There is only one player of the top ten scorers in the league with a higher 3pt percentage than Ingram. Think about what that means.
It doesn't matter anyway because Ingram is too talented to be relegated to a guy that should come off the bench for a 3&D role. I also reject this notion of yours that he'd have trouble fitting with this latest iteration of the Lakers.
There's nothing he can't do offensively. |
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Luminous8
Star Player
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
Posts: 2192
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | Luminous8 wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | Luminous8 wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | Kobesystem wrote: | | Still think he will get traded before the deadline. Along with Lonzo. |
And I think he should be. I don’t see his game meshing with Zion’s.
I still don’t see much special with BI. I think if the lakers had developed him right (emphasize D first and brought the offensive responsibility along slowly) he could have wound up PG or Butler level. Now I see his ceiling as more of a derozan level player |
So basically only an all NBA player? |
Yup which is a nice ceiling but certainly nothing to worry about losing for AD. I don’t think he can be a cornerstone franchise guy |
I agree, Ingram can be a good complimentary player. And the same for AD. |
Yes, I see Ingram high-fiving and complimenting teammates all the time.
As for being a complementary player, Ingram doesn't score the bulk of his field goals off of assists, so he could only complement guys like Steph and Klay, who are off ball superstars.
But AD is clearly on another level, he had a 59/20 game at age 22. He led a team with similar talent to the playoffs (when Jrue missed 42 games), while younger than Ingram is now. He was an all-star at age 20. |
Who's comparing Ingram to AD?? Considering Ingram's current three point percentage based on catch and shoots, he would have no problem at all fitting with AD and Bron.. The fit narratives still persist I see. In spite of Ingram figuring out how to perform in every role he's been given. |
In this entirely hypothetical scenario (as AD is a Celtic if Ingram was pulled from the deal), we'd be maxing out a young player with all-star potential, then limiting him in a 3&D role as the starting 2.
The few times he would get to use his talent on-ball, he'd have smaller players guarding him with no spacing to attack the rim. So, lots of fadeaway Js. And we'd be nearly hard-capped to boot with ~$110M spread across three players and Deng. |
Except that he and Bron had finally figured it out. It’s not like he’s the only guy handling the ball in. NEw Orleans. They’ve got plenty of ball handlers and Ingram isn’t even the primary one. Holiday still runs the offense |
Holiday runs the offense, but doesn't dominate the ball like LeBron and AD. When Zion gets back, you'll see my point.
If LeBron and BI "figuring it out" is going 2-4 in the last six games together (mostly against lotto teams), glad the FO figured they needed to make a trade.
If Davis, Ingram, and LeBron played together, someone would see their numbers suffer. Only four teams have had three 20-point scorers, and in each case, at least one player was playing off-ball significantly (Stephen Jackson in 2008, Chris Mullin in 1991, Klay in 2017 & 2018). Jackson and Ellis barely averaged 20. |
Stephen Jackson didn’t play off ball. He handled the ball as a point forward quite often.
Then you have more recent occurrence such as hmm I don’t know maybe It, Rudy Gay, and DMC. None of which were guys I’d call
Off ball scorers. So please stop the rhetoric. Hell this year alone the Clippers have THREE 20 ppg scorers and a 19 ppg. And why are you acting like BI is only scoring on the ball when they run a lot of off ball
Movement for him. I get it, you’re living off of his past play style, but perhaps try and actually watch their games before you speak on this type of stuff my friend. |
IT, Rudy Gay, and DMC did each average 20. Yet, Rudy missed 27 games, and IT didn't start in 28 games. Elias Sports Bureau doesn't count this team as having three 20 point scorers who played together, and they were 28-54 anyway.
BI is getting just 30% of his two point shots off of assists. This is not what a good off ball player's shooting stats look like.
The Warriors Big 3 in 2008 each averaged 37-39 minutes per game to get their 20 point averages (each barely averaged 20-21), there were definitely chemistry issues. Monta and Stephen Jackson did get half of their field goals off of assists, even if Jackson ran some point forward. They also missed the playoffs, but did win 48.
As for the Clippers, does Lou start? No! And Kawhi has missed six games, PG 11. Let's see what they end up averaging together. Trez plays better off ball than anyone we have (and his putbacks count as off-ball), and most of PG's buckets are off assists. So, the Clippers do not disprove my point. |
Does Lou play 30+ mpg? Did IT and Rudy? Stop your bias bro. This is dumb. Idgaf if Elias Sports Bureau don’t count it or not. It happened and it exists. This just doesn’t make sense at all. |
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Luminous8
Star Player
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
Posts: 2192
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | Lonzo (first 6 games of the season before getting hurt)
12 PPG
5.0 RPG
7.3 APG
38% from Three
Subsequent 5 games after injury, including 6 games straight he didn't play and 3 he had to come off the bench while still not 100%)
10 PPG
3.0 RPG
3.8 APG
30% from Three
Missed the next 2 games still recovering. Before coming back just now to play one good game and one bad game.
The reality is, we won't see what Ball is capable of fully till he's out there for a consistent period of time and healthy. The start he was on at the beginning of the season was a good one, but it got derailed when he got hurt and he hasn't caught all the way back up yet, nor would he.
So he'll need to be on the court more first. Long as you aren't crickets when he plays well, and then active when he plays poorly, you should get an accurate assessment. |
I loved Ball, but honestly even before the injury I didn’t feel he was impacting the game the way he did his rookie year for us. Just seems like he floats and coasts too much and he wasn’t really making plays in the half court for others. He was also still not attacking the paint like he should with that size. The D was also very disappointing. I’m still hopeful for him, but at this point I think maybe an Iggy 6Man type role where the little things he does can be more impactful may be the best suited role for him. |
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Luminous8
Star Player
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
Posts: 2192
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| SocalDevin wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: |
Have you even watched the games he's playing in???
There is only one guy setting others up for opportunities to score and that's Jrue, so of course Ingram is going to have to create most of his opportunities. That doesn't mean he can't play off-ball.. |
Of course Jrue is the only other creator on the roster now. But a good off ball player doesn't need multiple playmakers to create for him. Jrue and a facilitator like Ball should be all he needs.
He's not that quick on his cuts, and gets bumped off track easily due to the unfortunate laws of physics. Even with LeBron instead of Jrue, his stats were similar last season. He'd have to cut against even quicker players if he played for us, as he'd be guarding/guarded by the opposing SG with our starters.
If Zion comes back, averages around 20, and Ingram/Holiday are still putting up similar numbers, then I'll have crow to eat. But until then... |
You're not making any sense at all boss.. Not even a little bit of sense lol.. With all due respect.
"But a good off ball player doesn't need multiple playmakers to create for him. Jrue and a facilitator like Ball should be all he needs."
A bit oxymoronic no? Off ball players rely on others or a system to create their open looks, so your statement that a good off ball player doesn't need multiple playmakers is a head scratcher. And if you've been watching the Pels games you'd know that Ball doesn't create anything for anybody. Which makes your assessment laughable.
Bottom line is you're trying to poke holes in the game of a guy that's a top 10 scorer who's a league leader in FG and 3pt FG%s..
Anybody trying to still question Ingram's fit or game is clearly a hater at this point. |
I called Ball a facilitator, in other words, someone who makes good passes without drawing help defenders or creating. I'm on record saying Ball can't draw help defenders or create, fwiw. He's Greg Paulus at Duke.
You don't need any complicated system to play off ball. Just need agility and quick bursts of speed, and savvy (or the ability to catch lobs). And a couple refrigerator-types on the roster to set screens. Klay and Steph can do this to perfection, even with just Draymond/Iguodala/Livingston making the passes. The Warriors system doesn't require even one traditional playmaker. Steph created assists for his team on possessions w/o touching the ball, at times.
Oh, and Gentry was on Kerr's staff in 2015. |
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say anymore, or if it even matters.
Just based on Ingram's 3pt percentage your argument that he can't play off-ball is bogus. There is only one player of the top ten scorers in the league with a higher 3pt percentage than Ingram. Think about what that means.
It doesn't matter anyway because Ingram is too talented to be relegated to a guy that should come off the bench for a 3&D role. I also reject this notion of yours that he'd have trouble fitting with this latest iteration of the Lakers.
There's nothing he can't do offensively. |
I’m starting to realize why I suffer from migraines so bad,... smh |
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Luminous8
Star Player
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
Posts: 2192
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| SocalDevin wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: |
Have you even watched the games he's playing in???
There is only one guy setting others up for opportunities to score and that's Jrue, so of course Ingram is going to have to create most of his opportunities. That doesn't mean he can't play off-ball.. |
Of course Jrue is the only other creator on the roster now. But a good off ball player doesn't need multiple playmakers to create for him. Jrue and a facilitator like Ball should be all he needs.
He's not that quick on his cuts, and gets bumped off track easily due to the unfortunate laws of physics. Even with LeBron instead of Jrue, his stats were similar last season. He'd have to cut against even quicker players if he played for us, as he'd be guarding/guarded by the opposing SG with our starters.
If Zion comes back, averages around 20, and Ingram/Holiday are still putting up similar numbers, then I'll have crow to eat. But until then... |
You're not making any sense at all boss.. Not even a little bit of sense lol.. With all due respect.
"But a good off ball player doesn't need multiple playmakers to create for him. Jrue and a facilitator like Ball should be all he needs."
A bit oxymoronic no? Off ball players rely on others or a system to create their open looks, so your statement that a good off ball player doesn't need multiple playmakers is a head scratcher. And if you've been watching the Pels games you'd know that Ball doesn't create anything for anybody. Which makes your assessment laughable.
Bottom line is you're trying to poke holes in the game of a guy that's a top 10 scorer who's a league leader in FG and 3pt FG%s..
Anybody trying to still question Ingram's fit or game is clearly a hater at this point. |
I called Ball a facilitator, in other words, someone who makes good passes without drawing help defenders or creating. I'm on record saying Ball can't draw help defenders or create, fwiw. He's Greg Paulus at Duke.
You don't need any complicated system to play off ball. Just need agility and quick bursts of speed, and savvy (or the ability to catch lobs). And a couple refrigerator-types on the roster to set screens. Klay and Steph can do this to perfection, even with just Draymond/Iguodala/Livingston making the passes. The Warriors system doesn't require even one traditional playmaker. Steph created assists for his team on possessions w/o touching the ball, at times.
Oh, and Gentry was on Kerr's staff in 2015. |
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say anymore, or if it even matters.
Just based on Ingram's 3pt percentage your argument that he can't play off-ball is bogus. There is only one player of the top ten scorers in the league with a higher 3pt percentage than Ingram. Think about what that means.
It doesn't matter anyway because Ingram is too talented to be relegated to a guy that should come off the bench for a 3&D role. I also reject this notion of yours that he'd have trouble fitting with this latest iteration of the Lakers.
There's nothing he can't do offensively. |
I’m starting to realize why I suffer from migraines so bad,... smh |
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Laker_Dynasty_01
Star Player
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 1703
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| Luminous8 wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | Luminous8 wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | Luminous8 wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | Kobesystem wrote: | | Still think he will get traded before the deadline. Along with Lonzo. |
And I think he should be. I don’t see his game meshing with Zion’s.
I still don’t see much special with BI. I think if the lakers had developed him right (emphasize D first and brought the offensive responsibility along slowly) he could have wound up PG or Butler level. Now I see his ceiling as more of a derozan level player |
So basically only an all NBA player? |
Yup which is a nice ceiling but certainly nothing to worry about losing for AD. I don’t think he can be a cornerstone franchise guy |
I agree, Ingram can be a good complimentary player. And the same for AD. |
Yes, I see Ingram high-fiving and complimenting teammates all the time.
As for being a complementary player, Ingram doesn't score the bulk of his field goals off of assists, so he could only complement guys like Steph and Klay, who are off ball superstars.
But AD is clearly on another level, he had a 59/20 game at age 22. He led a team with similar talent to the playoffs (when Jrue missed 42 games), while younger than Ingram is now. He was an all-star at age 20. |
Who's comparing Ingram to AD?? Considering Ingram's current three point percentage based on catch and shoots, he would have no problem at all fitting with AD and Bron.. The fit narratives still persist I see. In spite of Ingram figuring out how to perform in every role he's been given. |
In this entirely hypothetical scenario (as AD is a Celtic if Ingram was pulled from the deal), we'd be maxing out a young player with all-star potential, then limiting him in a 3&D role as the starting 2.
The few times he would get to use his talent on-ball, he'd have smaller players guarding him with no spacing to attack the rim. So, lots of fadeaway Js. And we'd be nearly hard-capped to boot with ~$110M spread across three players and Deng. |
Except that he and Bron had finally figured it out. It’s not like he’s the only guy handling the ball in. NEw Orleans. They’ve got plenty of ball handlers and Ingram isn’t even the primary one. Holiday still runs the offense |
Holiday runs the offense, but doesn't dominate the ball like LeBron and AD. When Zion gets back, you'll see my point.
If LeBron and BI "figuring it out" is going 2-4 in the last six games together (mostly against lotto teams), glad the FO figured they needed to make a trade.
If Davis, Ingram, and LeBron played together, someone would see their numbers suffer. Only four teams have had three 20-point scorers, and in each case, at least one player was playing off-ball significantly (Stephen Jackson in 2008, Chris Mullin in 1991, Klay in 2017 & 2018). Jackson and Ellis barely averaged 20. |
Stephen Jackson didn’t play off ball. He handled the ball as a point forward quite often.
Then you have more recent occurrence such as hmm I don’t know maybe It, Rudy Gay, and DMC. None of which were guys I’d call
Off ball scorers. So please stop the rhetoric. Hell this year alone the Clippers have THREE 20 ppg scorers and a 19 ppg. And why are you acting like BI is only scoring on the ball when they run a lot of off ball
Movement for him. I get it, you’re living off of his past play style, but perhaps try and actually watch their games before you speak on this type of stuff my friend. |
IT, Rudy Gay, and DMC did each average 20. Yet, Rudy missed 27 games, and IT didn't start in 28 games. Elias Sports Bureau doesn't count this team as having three 20 point scorers who played together, and they were 28-54 anyway.
BI is getting just 30% of his two point shots off of assists. This is not what a good off ball player's shooting stats look like.
The Warriors Big 3 in 2008 each averaged 37-39 minutes per game to get their 20 point averages (each barely averaged 20-21), there were definitely chemistry issues. Monta and Stephen Jackson did get half of their field goals off of assists, even if Jackson ran some point forward. They also missed the playoffs, but did win 48.
As for the Clippers, does Lou start? No! And Kawhi has missed six games, PG 11. Let's see what they end up averaging together. Trez plays better off ball than anyone we have (and his putbacks count as off-ball), and most of PG's buckets are off assists. So, the Clippers do not disprove my point. |
Does Lou play 30+ mpg? Did IT and Rudy? Stop your bias bro. This is dumb. Idgaf if Elias Sports Bureau don’t count it or not. It happened and it exists. This just doesn’t make sense at all. |
The Kings' Big 3 barely averaged 20 apiece, and one didn't even start for a third of the year, and another missed a third of the year...I'd trust ESB, it's possible the trio did not average 20 in their games played together. I'd bet they didn't.
Lou doesn't start, but plays around 32 mpg. PG is taking the role of spot-up shooter so far, and averaging a career-low in 2pt FGs. The Clippers stagger Lou's minutes with Kawhi almost as much as mathematically possible. If we had Ingram and LeBron together with AD, it would be logical to do the same, but less feasible, as Ingram really would have to play 35+ for us.
There aren't many players with superstar potential who play as well off the ball as on, Curry is the exception. I think Ingram, with his spot up shooting, is better in this regard than all other future and current MVP-caliber players. Yet in a league with increasing cap restrictions, every dollar must be spent efficiently. A max extension to a player who would eat third until LeBron ages could put the team into a corner, while stunting the development of said player. |
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Laker_Dynasty_01
Star Player
Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 1703
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| SocalDevin wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: |
Have you even watched the games he's playing in???
There is only one guy setting others up for opportunities to score and that's Jrue, so of course Ingram is going to have to create most of his opportunities. That doesn't mean he can't play off-ball.. |
Of course Jrue is the only other creator on the roster now. But a good off ball player doesn't need multiple playmakers to create for him. Jrue and a facilitator like Ball should be all he needs.
He's not that quick on his cuts, and gets bumped off track easily due to the unfortunate laws of physics. Even with LeBron instead of Jrue, his stats were similar last season. He'd have to cut against even quicker players if he played for us, as he'd be guarding/guarded by the opposing SG with our starters.
If Zion comes back, averages around 20, and Ingram/Holiday are still putting up similar numbers, then I'll have crow to eat. But until then... |
You're not making any sense at all boss.. Not even a little bit of sense lol.. With all due respect.
"But a good off ball player doesn't need multiple playmakers to create for him. Jrue and a facilitator like Ball should be all he needs."
A bit oxymoronic no? Off ball players rely on others or a system to create their open looks, so your statement that a good off ball player doesn't need multiple playmakers is a head scratcher. And if you've been watching the Pels games you'd know that Ball doesn't create anything for anybody. Which makes your assessment laughable.
Bottom line is you're trying to poke holes in the game of a guy that's a top 10 scorer who's a league leader in FG and 3pt FG%s..
Anybody trying to still question Ingram's fit or game is clearly a hater at this point. |
I called Ball a facilitator, in other words, someone who makes good passes without drawing help defenders or creating. I'm on record saying Ball can't draw help defenders or create, fwiw. He's Greg Paulus at Duke.
You don't need any complicated system to play off ball. Just need agility and quick bursts of speed, and savvy (or the ability to catch lobs). And a couple refrigerator-types on the roster to set screens. Klay and Steph can do this to perfection, even with just Draymond/Iguodala/Livingston making the passes. The Warriors system doesn't require even one traditional playmaker. Steph created assists for his team on possessions w/o touching the ball, at times.
Oh, and Gentry was on Kerr's staff in 2015. |
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say anymore, or if it even matters.
Just based on Ingram's 3pt percentage your argument that he can't play off-ball is bogus. There is only one player of the top ten scorers in the league with a higher 3pt percentage than Ingram. Think about what that means.
It doesn't matter anyway because Ingram is too talented to be relegated to a guy that should come off the bench for a 3&D role. I also reject this notion of yours that he'd have trouble fitting with this latest iteration of the Lakers.
There's nothing he can't do offensively. |
It means Klay, Curry, and Durant are out, Kawhi is gimpy, PG and Westbrook are being marginalized, and LeBron is taking it easy. Eventually Irving will not qualify due to sitting out too many games and Ingram will move to #9.
Ingram is great and will be greater, but has no business being a top-10 scorer already.
He'd need his minutes staggered with LeBron, or else he'd be guarded by shorter players and have to face up against them. Any speed advantage he currently enjoys in transition against larger players would be lost. |
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SocalDevin
Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: |
Have you even watched the games he's playing in???
There is only one guy setting others up for opportunities to score and that's Jrue, so of course Ingram is going to have to create most of his opportunities. That doesn't mean he can't play off-ball.. |
Of course Jrue is the only other creator on the roster now. But a good off ball player doesn't need multiple playmakers to create for him. Jrue and a facilitator like Ball should be all he needs.
He's not that quick on his cuts, and gets bumped off track easily due to the unfortunate laws of physics. Even with LeBron instead of Jrue, his stats were similar last season. He'd have to cut against even quicker players if he played for us, as he'd be guarding/guarded by the opposing SG with our starters.
If Zion comes back, averages around 20, and Ingram/Holiday are still putting up similar numbers, then I'll have crow to eat. But until then... |
You're not making any sense at all boss.. Not even a little bit of sense lol.. With all due respect.
"But a good off ball player doesn't need multiple playmakers to create for him. Jrue and a facilitator like Ball should be all he needs."
A bit oxymoronic no? Off ball players rely on others or a system to create their open looks, so your statement that a good off ball player doesn't need multiple playmakers is a head scratcher. And if you've been watching the Pels games you'd know that Ball doesn't create anything for anybody. Which makes your assessment laughable.
Bottom line is you're trying to poke holes in the game of a guy that's a top 10 scorer who's a league leader in FG and 3pt FG%s..
Anybody trying to still question Ingram's fit or game is clearly a hater at this point. |
I called Ball a facilitator, in other words, someone who makes good passes without drawing help defenders or creating. I'm on record saying Ball can't draw help defenders or create, fwiw. He's Greg Paulus at Duke.
You don't need any complicated system to play off ball. Just need agility and quick bursts of speed, and savvy (or the ability to catch lobs). And a couple refrigerator-types on the roster to set screens. Klay and Steph can do this to perfection, even with just Draymond/Iguodala/Livingston making the passes. The Warriors system doesn't require even one traditional playmaker. Steph created assists for his team on possessions w/o touching the ball, at times.
Oh, and Gentry was on Kerr's staff in 2015. |
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say anymore, or if it even matters.
Just based on Ingram's 3pt percentage your argument that he can't play off-ball is bogus. There is only one player of the top ten scorers in the league with a higher 3pt percentage than Ingram. Think about what that means.
It doesn't matter anyway because Ingram is too talented to be relegated to a guy that should come off the bench for a 3&D role. I also reject this notion of yours that he'd have trouble fitting with this latest iteration of the Lakers.
There's nothing he can't do offensively. |
It means Klay, Curry, and Durant are out, Kawhi is gimpy, PG and Westbrook are being marginalized, and LeBron is taking it easy. Eventually Irving will not qualify due to sitting out too many games and Ingram will move to #9.
Ingram is great and will be greater, but has no business being a top-10 scorer already.
He'd need his minutes staggered with LeBron, or else he'd be guarded by shorter players and have to face up against them. Any speed advantage he currently enjoys in transition against larger players would be lost. |
Okay.. Believe what you want.  |
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audioaxes
Franchise Player
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 12573
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | If Davis, Ingram, and LeBron played together... |
I would have loved to have this "problem." |
not much of a problem at all... BI gets to run the bench units as the #1 option and no more need to stagger LB and Davis.
_________________
(bleep) Kawhi |
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Luminous8
Star Player
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
Posts: 2192
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Kendrick Perkins said yesterday that he can’t think of 15 players in the league who are better than BI right now. So happy for Tiny Dog. |
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MJST
Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 26309
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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At the small forward position with no KD...
I'm trying to think how many Small Forwards have been better than Ingram this year except for LeBron.
In the West...
Gianis, LeBron, Doncic, Kawhi and Brandon Ingram and then George
Ingram is a top 5 Small Forward in the league this year at age 22.
Top 4 in the West.
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How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk
Last edited by MJST on Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
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