Frank Vogel Official Lakers Head Coach for 3-Years
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Are you happy about Vogel becoming our coach?
No
12%
 12%  [ 51 ]
Yes
51%
 51%  [ 217 ]
Neutral
36%
 36%  [ 155 ]
Total Votes : 423

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drae
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:45 pm    Post subject:

epak wrote:
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Tania Ganguli
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“I yelled at them for giving up 125 points tonight. I don’t think anyone heard me.” - Frank Vogel


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:25 pm    Post subject:

They were semi-load managing Frank

Probably will happen a few more times, especially with the offense playing like top 5 in league now.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:28 pm    Post subject:

Can someone tell me if the stretch 5 aka Towns caused problems for us? People were saying we couldn't have McGee or D39 in the game when a stretch mark was on the other side.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:06 pm    Post subject:

Another thing to credit Frank Vogel for is that free throw line handoff play that always leads to alley-oop between KCP/Dwight, AB/AD, etc. That play has been ridiculously good for us and has given us a handful of buckets per game.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:46 am    Post subject:

drae wrote:
epak wrote:
Quote:
Tania Ganguli
@taniaganguli

“I yelled at them for giving up 125 points tonight. I don’t think anyone heard me.” - Frank Vogel



I really like this coaching staff. Sure they have some great defensive talent to work with - but - well it is just fun to watch.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:50 am    Post subject:

epak wrote:
Can someone tell me if the stretch 5 aka Towns caused problems for us? People were saying we couldn't have McGee or D39 in the game when a stretch mark was on the other side.


It’s true in theory IMO, but AD allows us to get away with that. Love it.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:52 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
epak wrote:
Can someone tell me if the stretch 5 aka Towns caused problems for us? People were saying we couldn't have McGee or D39 in the game when a stretch mark was on the other side.


It’s true in theory IMO, but AD allows us to get away with that. Love it.


Most definitely. AD is the true unicorn of the NBA.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:54 am    Post subject:

epak wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
epak wrote:
Can someone tell me if the stretch 5 aka Towns caused problems for us? People were saying we couldn't have McGee or D39 in the game when a stretch mark was on the other side.


It’s true in theory IMO, but AD allows us to get away with that. Love it.


Most definitely. AD is the true unicorn of the NBA.


Also not looking forward to stretch marks.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:09 am    Post subject:

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Frank Vogel says the Lakers want to have a growth mindset from this game, because if they play that way in Indiana and Milwaukee, they will lose.


I like what our coach says.
I've heard BS from coaches a lot.
But most of what he says sounds logical.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:30 am    Post subject:

It will be interesting to see how Vogel handles things.

Kuzma - in my mind is under-performing, but needs to get time to see if we can get him going - not a huge deal now as he is out with injury.

AC, KCP, Bradley and Rondo have all made the case for playing time.

Green - who is supposed to be one of our better 3 ball shooters is having a pretty torrid shooting stretch so should we get more time in for players like Cook etc to see if they can get going?

At least FC the tandem of AD, Howard, McGee is generally wreaking havoc and overall LBJ is play really well on both sides of the ball on most nights
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:28 am    Post subject:

Love Vogel, he ready plays to everyone’s strength:

LBJ: at this age, Vogel uses his experience and playmaking ability over his scoring and defense. He leads the team’s offense

AD: Vogel uses his defense over his scoring and passing. He is skeleton of the team’s defense

Caruso: Vogel discovers Caruso

KCP: Vogel simply saves KCP

Howard: Vogel gives Howard second life

Bradley: Vogel uses him as a supplementary playmaker as well as perimeter defender
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:58 pm    Post subject:

the ISO offense we rely on so much, it stalls against great defenses... we don't run enough plays.. as GT said on twitter
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:45 pm    Post subject:

Psst, Vogel. Don't run pick and roll when Freak is the one defending the big man.

This game reminded me of when the US team ran into Gobert this past summer.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:08 pm    Post subject:

Vogel needs to manage ad and lebron minutes man. Giannis only played 32 freaking minutes, that 2nd effed over the Lakers to where they had to play more but still all these other superstars are coasting with their minutes in other games.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:02 am    Post subject:

Vogel supposedly listen to our analytics guy but why is Rondo getting so much minutes?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:51 am    Post subject:

He's in love with Rondo. Can't play him that many minutes.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:35 am    Post subject:

Vogel rolling out a lineup of Rondo, Avery, Dudley, LeBron and Dwight doomed us in the second. He thought just removing Dudley in the second half would make that lineup work. KCP looks great in the starting lineup but it forces a backcourt 2nd unit of Rondo and AB. They both are awful together. I would pull KCP early, play Avery and then remove Avery add KCP.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:37 am    Post subject:

LakersARETheGOAT wrote:
Vogel needs to manage ad and lebron minutes man. Giannis only played 32 freaking minutes, that 2nd effed over the Lakers to where they had to play more but still all these other superstars are coasting with their minutes in other games.

The bench had 4 points. It all but forced our stars to play more. Guys just have to be better. Dudes looked shook out there. He just needs to find better combinations of players. He should know them by now.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:09 am    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
the ISO offense we rely on so much, it stalls against great defenses... we don't run enough plays.. as GT said on twitter

GT says that every time Lakers go into a rut, like in the Dallas game. I wonder what many of these guys thoughts were on Vogel before they even hired them. I am pretty sure many loved Lue and Monty Williams style of play over Vogel when he was hired (at least that is what I read on here) - yet how are the Clippers and Suns doing - in comparison to where they should be? Clippers were supposed to be the best team in the West and better than us, yet we're ahead right now by a good 4 losses margin. The Suns have a nice O, but no D, and a sub .500 record .. we have been able to be very good on both sides of the ball.

FYI, Lakers run the iso play 8% of their time. The Rockets for example run it 19% of the time. It's not a big part of the offense, like it is with the Rockets.

Do they want this team to start shooting 40+ 3 point shots and playing like every other team in the NBA - how is that working for Gentry and others? It works if you have the talent for it, but a lot of teams don't have the talent for it and end up doing poorly W-L wise. For a few years AD was in the
offense that gets a lot of props yet AD is a much more effective player this year on both sides. Our O rating has for the most part been up there with the elites in the NBA, and this has been with a situation where you have not seen anything from Kuzma yet because of injuries, as he was supposed to be a key guy for us, allowing AD to move to the 5 and giving us more pace and space to the offense. We can not run and explode as much on offense because without a Kuzma there is not a speed lineup you can rely on - with AD at the 5 or Dwight at the 5 and Kuz at the 4.

For whatever this will be worth, the Lakers only run 8% of their plays in isolation. They are not that heavy on isolations, as much as they get caught up with Lebron dribbling too long in the possession, or Rondo. Sometimes AD holds the ball too long as well. We see this more against elite defenses or new defenses because the easy way to score doesn't come. The easy opening is that AD or Lebron draw the double/triple and someone gets open. What's happening is elite defenses take away that opening. So what you have to do is do more of what you saw in that second half. But I also don't think AD or Lebron were in rhythm or ready to go in that 1st half. AD was coming off an injury with the ankle and Lebron was uncertain where to attack from as a PG. Second half, AD finds his rhythm. Lebron figures some holes in the defense.

Our game plan is rock solid IMO. Our mistake is the rotation and Lebron taking too much time to read the defense. We can not play Bradley and Rondo together (I heard that Bradley is going to start soon, finally). We need a shooter out there with Rondo. We need Kuzma back, so we can run more and play more pace and space lineups with AD or Dwight at the 5 with Kuz at the 4. Kuzma was supposed to be this team's 3rd best player and is an athletic stretch forward. Dudley is a slow (but smart) stretch 4, but he can not do for the offense what Kuzma can potentially.

Get Bradley back to starting, get someone like Green or KCP to give the bench some scoring, get Kuzma healthy and back, now you suddenly have the firepower you need to beat elite defenses. Bench scored 4 points in this game. Not due to isolation basketball. The game flipped for Milwaukee when they went on that big run in the 2nd Q with Rondo/Bradley backcourt. Was not isolation basketball that did us in, was our lack of D, and the poor fit that 2nd unit is together.

When you have AD and Lebron, there will be isolation basketball to a degree. Just like when you had Kobe and Shaq. No way around that. However what's interesting is that in both the Clippers road game and this Bucks game, Lebron did not attack early and took too long to figure out the defense. This is something we can not see happen in the playoffs. The isolations are not what is doing us in. It is that Lebron takes too long to attack and plays to get his teammates going even when they have taken away shots from his teammates. Lebron needs more mamba mentality when it's games like the Miwaukee or Clippers road games. Those are elite defenses and you will not get role players as many easy looks as you do against weaker defenses.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:25 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
the ISO offense we rely on so much, it stalls against great defenses... we don't run enough plays.. as GT said on twitter

GT says that every time Lakers go into a rut, like in the Dallas game. I wonder what many of these guys thoughts were on Vogel before they even hired them. I am pretty sure many loved Lue and Monty Williams style of play over Vogel when he was hired (at least that is what I read on here) - yet how are the Clippers and Suns doing - in comparison to where they should be? Clippers were supposed to be the best team in the West and better than us, yet we're ahead right now by a good 4 losses margin. The Suns have a nice O, but no D, and a sub .500 record .. we have been able to be very good on both sides of the ball.

FYI, Lakers run the iso play 8% of their time. The Rockets for example run it 19% of the time. It's not a big part of the offense, like it is with the Rockets.

Do they want this team to start shooting 40+ 3 point shots and playing like every other team in the NBA - how is that working for Gentry and others? It works if you have the talent for it, but a lot of teams don't have the talent for it and end up doing poorly W-L wise. For a few years AD was in the
offense that gets a lot of props yet AD is a much more effective player this year on both sides. Our O rating has for the most part been up there with the elites in the NBA, and this has been with a situation where you have not seen anything from Kuzma yet because of injuries, as he was supposed to be a key guy for us, allowing AD to move to the 5 and giving us more pace and space to the offense. We can not run and explode as much on offense because without a Kuzma there is not a speed lineup you can rely on - with AD at the 5 or Dwight at the 5 and Kuz at the 4.

For whatever this will be worth, the Lakers only run 8% of their plays in isolation. They are not that heavy on isolations, as much as they get caught up with Lebron dribbling too long in the possession, or Rondo. Sometimes AD holds the ball too long as well. We see this more against elite defenses or new defenses because the easy way to score doesn't come. The easy opening is that AD or Lebron draw the double/triple and someone gets open. What's happening is elite defenses take away that opening. So what you have to do is do more of what you saw in that second half. But I also don't think AD or Lebron were in rhythm or ready to go in that 1st half. AD was coming off an injury with the ankle and Lebron was uncertain where to attack from as a PG. Second half, AD finds his rhythm. Lebron figures some holes in the defense.

Our game plan is rock solid IMO. Our mistake is the rotation and Lebron taking too much time to read the defense. We can not play Bradley and Rondo together (I heard that Bradley is going to start soon, finally). We need a shooter out there with Rondo. We need Kuzma back, so we can run more and play more pace and space lineups with AD or Dwight at the 5 with Kuz at the 4. Kuzma was supposed to be this team's 3rd best player and is an athletic stretch forward. Dudley is a slow (but smart) stretch 4, but he can not do for the offense what Kuzma can potentially.

Get Bradley back to starting, get someone like Green or KCP to give the bench some scoring, get Kuzma healthy and back, now you suddenly have the firepower you need to beat elite defenses. Bench scored 4 points in this game. Not due to isolation basketball. The game flipped for Milwaukee when they went on that big run in the 2nd Q with Rondo/Bradley backcourt. Was not isolation basketball that did us in, was our lack of D, and the poor fit that 2nd unit is together.

When you have AD and Lebron, there will be isolation basketball to a degree. Just like when you had Kobe and Shaq. No way around that. However what's interesting is that in both the Clippers road game and this Bucks game, Lebron did not attack early and took too long to figure out the defense. This is something we can not see happen in the playoffs. The isolations are not what is doing us in. It is that Lebron takes too long to attack and plays to get his teammates going even when they have taken away shots from his teammates. Lebron needs more mamba mentality when it's games like the Miwaukee or Clippers road games. Those are elite defenses and you will not get role players as many easy looks as you do against weaker defenses.

excellent post
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:31 am    Post subject:

Vogel had that deer in the headlights look last night, there were no counter moves.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:32 am    Post subject:

PayasoLoco wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
the ISO offense we rely on so much, it stalls against great defenses... we don't run enough plays.. as GT said on twitter

GT says that every time Lakers go into a rut, like in the Dallas game. I wonder what many of these guys thoughts were on Vogel before they even hired them. I am pretty sure many loved Lue and Monty Williams style of play over Vogel when he was hired (at least that is what I read on here) - yet how are the Clippers and Suns doing - in comparison to where they should be? Clippers were supposed to be the best team in the West and better than us, yet we're ahead right now by a good 4 losses margin. The Suns have a nice O, but no D, and a sub .500 record .. we have been able to be very good on both sides of the ball.

FYI, Lakers run the iso play 8% of their time. The Rockets for example run it 19% of the time. It's not a big part of the offense, like it is with the Rockets.

Do they want this team to start shooting 40+ 3 point shots and playing like every other team in the NBA - how is that working for Gentry and others? It works if you have the talent for it, but a lot of teams don't have the talent for it and end up doing poorly W-L wise. For a few years AD was in the
offense that gets a lot of props yet AD is a much more effective player this year on both sides. Our O rating has for the most part been up there with the elites in the NBA, and this has been with a situation where you have not seen anything from Kuzma yet because of injuries, as he was supposed to be a key guy for us, allowing AD to move to the 5 and giving us more pace and space to the offense. We can not run and explode as much on offense because without a Kuzma there is not a speed lineup you can rely on - with AD at the 5 or Dwight at the 5 and Kuz at the 4.

For whatever this will be worth, the Lakers only run 8% of their plays in isolation. They are not that heavy on isolations, as much as they get caught up with Lebron dribbling too long in the possession, or Rondo. Sometimes AD holds the ball too long as well. We see this more against elite defenses or new defenses because the easy way to score doesn't come. The easy opening is that AD or Lebron draw the double/triple and someone gets open. What's happening is elite defenses take away that opening. So what you have to do is do more of what you saw in that second half. But I also don't think AD or Lebron were in rhythm or ready to go in that 1st half. AD was coming off an injury with the ankle and Lebron was uncertain where to attack from as a PG. Second half, AD finds his rhythm. Lebron figures some holes in the defense.

Our game plan is rock solid IMO. Our mistake is the rotation and Lebron taking too much time to read the defense. We can not play Bradley and Rondo together (I heard that Bradley is going to start soon, finally). We need a shooter out there with Rondo. We need Kuzma back, so we can run more and play more pace and space lineups with AD or Dwight at the 5 with Kuz at the 4. Kuzma was supposed to be this team's 3rd best player and is an athletic stretch forward. Dudley is a slow (but smart) stretch 4, but he can not do for the offense what Kuzma can potentially.

Get Bradley back to starting, get someone like Green or KCP to give the bench some scoring, get Kuzma healthy and back, now you suddenly have the firepower you need to beat elite defenses. Bench scored 4 points in this game. Not due to isolation basketball. The game flipped for Milwaukee when they went on that big run in the 2nd Q with Rondo/Bradley backcourt. Was not isolation basketball that did us in, was our lack of D, and the poor fit that 2nd unit is together.

When you have AD and Lebron, there will be isolation basketball to a degree. Just like when you had Kobe and Shaq. No way around that. However what's interesting is that in both the Clippers road game and this Bucks game, Lebron did not attack early and took too long to figure out the defense. This is something we can not see happen in the playoffs. The isolations are not what is doing us in. It is that Lebron takes too long to attack and plays to get his teammates going even when they have taken away shots from his teammates. Lebron needs more mamba mentality when it's games like the Miwaukee or Clippers road games. Those are elite defenses and you will not get role players as many easy looks as you do against weaker defenses.

excellent post


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:39 am    Post subject:

^
Forgot to mention, that in both Clippers and Bucks game, and realize that the Bucks and Clippers are the two other teams aside from us that I think are title favorites and realistically a title favourite. Against both teams the game went bad for us when the second units played - because we could not defend their 2nd unit attack, and we didn't do much with our 2nd unit attack. The question is why? To me it is not isolation basketball at all. It is that our 2nd unit currently is not right with Bradley/Rondo and all season we have seen injuries with the 2nd unit affect their continuity. We don't have a spacing guy like Kuzma, who is athletic and can run and get some easy scores for us. We need a second unit that has some real weapons to shoot and score, and that is not there in either game. Kuzma IIRC missed both games. IIRC, in both games, Lebron played passive in the 1st half. Looking to get teammates going, but against a defense that was not giving his teammates great looks.

I feel the Lakers beat these teams in a 7 game playoff setting assuming AD and Lebron are healthy. Lebron will need to come out more with a mamba mentality, on the road. The Lakers will need AD to be like the AD of the 2nd half. We'll need to play better defense. I don't think the Lakers played anywhere near their proper or best half. You can not say that the Lakers would do this in a 7 game playoff series and play 4 bad games. It could happen, but IMO if the Lakers play only 1 or 2 bad games, they will beat these teams in the playoffs. RS match ups are much different than playoffs. There will be a lot more scheming. But lets see.

For me going to pace and space and full time in what other teams are doing, puts AD back in what he was with Gentry, and puts us at a disadvantage, because we don't utilize our bigs (Howard/McGee) in those situations, and now you're asking average 3 point shooters to be big time scorers which they are not. The Bucks offense lacks a second superstar. It will hold them back. You'll see it, I am very confident in the current situation (barring a trade) that the Lakers will find ways to slow down Milwaukee. Until Giannis gets a second superstar, IMO he is not winning a title. I like what we're doing, in that we play big and get the ball to the basket, win the points in paint match ups, then we also play AD at the 5 and space out the floor. We just can not see this to it's proper effect until we have someone like Kuzma doing what he should be, and we need Lebron to realize that elite defenses are not going to allow him to spoon feed players easy baskets.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:53 am    Post subject:

I still say Vogel needs to play Cook over Rondo, Cook can play point but one of the best shooters on the team! Why isn’t Vogel giving Rondo’s minutes to Cook, plus he won’t hesitate to shoot like Rondo, Caruso.

The line up Vogel puts in for subs has no shooters especially with Kuz out. Cook needs to see more PT, I’m tired of Rondo dribbling the shot clock down & his wild layups. Vogel can not have 2 non shooters at guard on the floor at same time. Need to get more shots for Green & Kuz when he gets back!
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:03 am    Post subject:

Vogel is doing a good job with the defense.
On offense he is depending on Lebron too much. Sure Lebron is the wheel.
But he has to get the other players moving and getting involved.
You could see what is happening. The Pacers game Lebron got gassed at the end.
And in the Mil game he was a tad slow and tried to drive too much on a collapsing defense.
That is what Vogel will see for awhile. Clogging the lane to prevent Lebron drive and daring the 3 point shooters to make one. Problem is some good shooters are on the bench. Avery and Caruso are good defenders but not that good outside shooters.
That is pick your poison as you are one dimensional bench players. Can either defend or shoot but not both well.
There needs to be more plays run. And more motion offense. Not Lebron and Rondo dribbling all day trying to find open players. They are sagging on Rondo. And collapsing the drive lanes for Lebron. Let them shoot the outside shot as they are not good at it.
That is the obvious problem if you watched the games.
The solution is not so easy. But that is why you have professional coaches for.
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