Shaq. He was terrifying. _________________ “Christ did not die to forgive sinners who go on treasuring anything above seeing and savoring God. And people who would be happy in heaven if Christ were not there, will not be there."
- John Piper
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:20 pm Post subject:
I'm ignoring stats and just keeping mindful of game play.
Imagine, being bigger, stronger, faster, more athletic than everyone else and then putting up some really soft shots around the hoop. Part of me thinks that Wilt did that because he was seen as Goliath and no one loves that guy.
But Shaq was all aggression, all the time. He wouldn't finesse shots if he didn't have to.
To me, that's the biggest difference. Wilt could have basically dunked everything in sight. It's weird watching those ultra high pace 60s to early 70s games and just seeing him take occasional breaks with nowhere near the physicality that Shaq had to put up with in his career. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Posts: 12161 Location: Bay Area
Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:13 am Post subject:
Mike@LG wrote:
I'm ignoring stats and just keeping mindful of game play.
Imagine, being bigger, stronger, faster, more athletic than everyone else and then putting up some really soft shots around the hoop. Part of me thinks that Wilt did that because he was seen as Goliath and no one loves that guy.
But Shaq was all aggression, all the time. He wouldn't finesse shots if he didn't have to.
To me, that's the biggest difference. Wilt could have basically dunked everything in sight. It's weird watching those ultra high pace 60s to early 70s games and just seeing him take occasional breaks with nowhere near the physicality that Shaq had to put up with in his career.
That and dunking was frequently seen as unsportsmanlike in the early days of the sport. Wilt helped change that view, but he also fell victim to it at times. Being on the receiving end of one too many elbows, an undercut here, an undercut there . . . enough to dissuade even Wilt, I suppose.
I'm ignoring stats and just keeping mindful of game play.
Imagine, being bigger, stronger, faster, more athletic than everyone else and then putting up some really soft shots around the hoop. Part of me thinks that Wilt did that because he was seen as Goliath and no one loves that guy.
But Shaq was all aggression, all the time. He wouldn't finesse shots if he didn't have to.
To me, that's the biggest difference. Wilt could have basically dunked everything in sight. It's weird watching those ultra high pace 60s to early 70s games and just seeing him take occasional breaks with nowhere near the physicality that Shaq had to put up with in his career.
That and dunking was frequently seen as unsportsmanlike in the early days of the sport. Wilt helped change that view, but he also fell victim to it at times. Being on the receiving end of one too many elbows, an undercut here, an undercut there . . . enough to dissuade even Wilt, I suppose.
Dunking was one of Wilt's three primary shots, along with the fingeroll and fadeaway. People have long argued why he didn't dunk more and there are sorts of theories, among them:
1. Teams concentrated on taking away the dunk, so he used the finger role and fadeaway more.
2. Wilt got tired of being mauled inside when he went for dunks, so he preferred fingeroles and fadeaways.
3. Wilt was afraid of his own strength and preferred other shots so he wouldn't hurt other players.
4. Wilt was a great showman, and he thought the finger role was a showier move.
Like most things with Wilt, the truth is elusive. Wilt like to tell tall tales so you can never accept anything he said at face value. Players from his era have all sorts of different opinions.
I’d say Shaq would’ve been more dominant in Wilts era than Wilt. But I never saw Wilt play. Shaq was a marvel to me. He could’ve been even better had he had a Kobe like work ethic, yet at the same time at his size it’s amazing he played like 18 years and was a force for most of them. Yao didn’t last long. Bynum didn’t last long. Embiid is looking shaky. None of them were Shaq.
If you put prime Shaq in the NBA in Wilt's era he would be capable of averaging 50.
I’d say Shaq would’ve been more dominant in Wilts era than Wilt. But I never saw Wilt play. Shaq was a marvel to me. He could’ve been even better had he had a Kobe like work ethic, yet at the same time at his size it’s amazing he played like 18 years and was a force for most of them. Yao didn’t last long. Bynum didn’t last long. Embiid is looking shaky. None of them were Shaq.
If you put prime Shaq in the NBA in Wilt's era he would be capable of averaging 50.
Would Shaq be able to not commit offensive fouls each possession? _________________ 48 49 50 52 53 54 72 80 82
85 87 88 00 01 02 09 10 20
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:07 am Post subject:
activeverb wrote:
unleasHell wrote:
I'm old and even so, I am still too young to have seen Wilt play, but by looking at his career numbers they are nothing short of remarkable:
1. Had a 100 point game!
2. Averaged 40 points per game over his first SIX Seasons!
3. Averaged 24.9 rebounds per game over his first SIX Seasons!
4. Career scoring average of 30ppg!
5. Career rebound average of 22.9rpg!
6. Averaged 50 points per game over 80 games in 1960/61!
7. Averaged 2 personal fouls per game over his career, so he dominated without hitting the other guy and NEVER fouled out of a game!
Also, if you scroll way down, you will see some advanced analytics that tabulate Win Shares of NBA Centers and in both tables, Wilt is number one all-time and Shaq is number 6!
So factually speaking, Wilt is better by a mile, but since most everyone here has only seen Shaq play, I expect him to win this STRAW POLL...!
Wilt was great, but you have to take some of his statistical accomplishments with a grain of salt. They reflect his ability but also reflect the era he played in.
When Wilt was averaging 26 rrp in 1962, Russell was averaging 24 rrp, Bellamy 19 rrp., and Pettit 19 rpg. So his rebounding average was a function of his ability, but also a reflection of teams taking a lot of shots and shooting at a low percentage (creating many rebound opportunities) and the wide variations in talent that are common in the early days of a sports league.
Yup just total disregard for competition and pace. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
I’d say Shaq would’ve been more dominant in Wilts era than Wilt. But I never saw Wilt play. Shaq was a marvel to me. He could’ve been even better had he had a Kobe like work ethic, yet at the same time at his size it’s amazing he played like 18 years and was a force for most of them. Yao didn’t last long. Bynum didn’t last long. Embiid is looking shaky. None of them were Shaq.
If you put prime Shaq in the NBA in Wilt's era he would be capable of averaging 50.
Would Shaq be able to not commit offensive fouls each possession?
Players adjust to rules. Shaq would have decimated the NBA in the 60's.
I’d say Shaq would’ve been more dominant in Wilts era than Wilt. But I never saw Wilt play. Shaq was a marvel to me. He could’ve been even better had he had a Kobe like work ethic, yet at the same time at his size it’s amazing he played like 18 years and was a force for most of them. Yao didn’t last long. Bynum didn’t last long. Embiid is looking shaky. None of them were Shaq.
If you put prime Shaq in the NBA in Wilt's era he would be capable of averaging 50.
Would Shaq be able to not commit offensive fouls each possession?
Players adjust to rules. Shaq would have decimated the NBA in the 60's.
You realize he would have to completely throw away the part of his game he rellied the most on? I dont see what adjustments he would do to be a 50ppg scorer under those rules and circumstances _________________ 48 49 50 52 53 54 72 80 82
85 87 88 00 01 02 09 10 20
Here’s my thoughts, Wilt is definitely in the conversation for greatest of all time along with Michael, Magic, Kareem, and possibly a couple others (Kobe). Shaq is not in the conversation at all and in my mind there are several players between him and the top 4 or 5. Additionally, since being dominate was Shaq’s main asset, yet that still doesn’t put him in the GOAT conversation, right there he is not the most dominate ever.
Shaq was a beast and no one playing when he played could handle him. If Shaq played during Wilt’s time he would of been a force, but he wouldn’t of led the league in assists, and I just don’t see him leading in rebounds, blocks (if they kept that stat), minutes played, and not points either. Wilt and later Kareem would of still have been the best players in the league IMO. It would of been fun to watch for sure... Battle of the Giants.
I try to avoid comparing modern players to players like Wilt, Jerry, Russell, etc.
The game has evolved so much it's almost impossible to compare. Aside from obvious rule changes how many people here legitimately saw enough of Wilt to make a comparison? Even the footage we do have of him actually playing isn't enough. _________________ If Brandon Knight were to come out, I would take him number 1 in the draft. - Magic Johnson Mar 27, 2011
For all of you out there questioning Jimmer Fredette of BYU, he is the real deal. - Magic Johnson Mar 20, 2011
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29286 Location: La La Land
Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:10 am Post subject:
The guy who averaged 30 points, 22 rebounds, and 11 FTA a game for his whole career. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Shaq's prime was short and sweet but it was very dominating. Y2K Shaq was arguably the single most dominating season ever for any player at any time even compared to Westbrick's triple double average season. Shaq's dominance led to the Lakers winning the champhionship that year unlike how some players like to pad their stats and their teams falter in the playoffs.
I still haven't seen a player who catches the ball inside the painted area equal to two automatic points like Shaq. Shaq could literally dunk the ball even with Iverson hanging on his back. _________________ LeGoat! LeMazing! LeGend!
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29286 Location: La La Land
Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:26 pm Post subject:
Mike@LG wrote:
Mamba81 wrote:
kikanga wrote:
The guy who averaged 30 points, 22 rebounds, and 11 FTA a game for his whole career.
Inflated stats against bums
My favorite thing is going to basketball reference for Wilt and then doing per 36 and watch all the fanatical numbers drop.
Doesn't even account for pace or competition.
I give big men credit for playing 46 MPG over their career. Tough to twist that into a bad thing.
Time cuts both ways. What does he look like if he had the sports science and technology of the 90s/00s? Somehow more scary.
Even if you talk 2020 NBA. I think Wilt would be more dominant. Trust him to get up and down the court faster, play more minutes, defend the pick and roll better, and just affect a higher % of plays overall.
Not a knock on Shaq though. Wilt is just ... Wiit. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
The guy who averaged 30 points, 22 rebounds, and 11 FTA a game for his whole career.
Inflated stats against bums
Wilt played against some of the best big men the league has ever seen. I think Shaq is clearly more dominant but you don't have to dog out Wilt to make that point.
Joined: 19 Jul 2002 Posts: 15403 Location: Oak Park
Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:08 am Post subject:
Wilt was like LeBron, but a7 foot version. Shaq was a great athlete himself but wilt did things that make you go wow, that transcends basketball. Maybe that has nothing to do with mde because Shaq has some stretches in his career that literally forced a modern era nba to change rules but I just can’t imagine what somebody with wilts height speed vertical fast twitch would do with modern day nba training.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:55 am Post subject:
kikanga wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Mamba81 wrote:
kikanga wrote:
The guy who averaged 30 points, 22 rebounds, and 11 FTA a game for his whole career.
Inflated stats against bums
My favorite thing is going to basketball reference for Wilt and then doing per 36 and watch all the fanatical numbers drop.
Doesn't even account for pace or competition.
I give big men credit for playing 46 MPG over their career. Tough to twist that into a bad thing.
Time cuts both ways. What does he look like if he had the sports science and technology of the 90s/00s? Somehow more scary.
Even if you talk 2020 NBA. I think Wilt would be more dominant. Trust him to get up and down the court faster, play more minutes, defend the pick and roll better, and just affect a higher % of plays overall.
Not a knock on Shaq though. Wilt is just ... Wiit.
Wilt is Wilt.
I just don't really like focusing on just numbers to show proof. Skips a lot with the comparison.
Watch those games and you see how they don't even really try to push Wilt out of the post. Are you kidding? Yeah Shaq would feast all day back then too. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:56 am Post subject:
buduan wrote:
Mamba81 wrote:
kikanga wrote:
The guy who averaged 30 points, 22 rebounds, and 11 FTA a game for his whole career.
Inflated stats against bums
Wilt played against some of the best big men the league has ever seen. I think Shaq is clearly more dominant but you don't have to dog out Wilt to make that point.
While true, Shaq played the more physical era. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Shaq's prime was short and sweet but it was very dominating. Y2K Shaq was arguably the single most dominating season ever for any player at any time even compared to Westbrick's triple double average season. Shaq's dominance led to the Lakers winning the champhionship that year unlike how some players like to pad their stats and their teams falter in the playoffs.
I still haven't seen a player who catches the ball inside the painted area equal to two automatic points like Shaq. Shaq could literally dunk the ball even with Iverson hanging on his back.
1999-2000 Shaq was one vote away from becoming the first unanimous NBA MVP ever. He lost one vote to Iverson, who won the next season. _________________ Lakers. Built different.
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