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GOODRICH25
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 Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| CandyCanes wrote: | | It’s strange that that series was so close when we had swept them in the first round the year prior. The Iverson for Billups trade really made a big difference. |
I think its a combination of a few things. AI still was great at that time, led the team in scoring (while shooting as efficiently as Melo), assists and steals, but he was taking away from the one aspect of the game Melo was the best at, which is scoring. They still won 50 games, which is only 4 less than the year after with Billups. Difference? West was a madhouse, so the 1st year they finished 8th and the next they were 2nd. Bumping into us 1st vs meeting us in the conference finals is a huge deal.
Billups was a better fit to Melo and he was more of a leader. In 2008 they were 2nd best offense and 2nd worst defense, despite Camby being the BLKs leader. In 2009 their offense dropped to 6th but the defense improved to 18th. They let old Camby go and unleashed Nene and JR Smith. Melo improved mentally and player wise, and they had a peak year. But they were simply not on our level. The following year that same team collapsed vs the Jazz in the 1st round and that was the end of the road for Melo in Denver. He was never beating us, unless he joined the Spurs maybe, so he best be quiet.
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mhan00
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| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| leor_77 wrote: | | I initially laughed when reading this, but to be honest...If Ariza hadn't gotten those steals, it would have been a much tougher/questionable series. |
Every team that wins a championship, especially multiples, has key moments or lucky breaks or incredibly clutch play/shots that if it happened differently, maybe a ring doesn’t happen. Every team that loses in the playoffs has “woulda coulda shoulda”s. Even teams that got swept or beaten in five can point to key points where if they had gone differently, maybe momentum would have shifted and the series would have been completely different. Nick Anderson bricking 4 straight fts against the Rockets, any one of which could have iced the game, comes to mind. Like Pat Riley once said (paraphrased): “If you woulda and coulda, you shoulda”. |
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mhan00
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| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | leor_77 wrote: | | I initially laughed when reading this, but to be honest...If Ariza hadn't gotten those steals, it would have been a much tougher/questionable series. |
Problem here is if you start taking away the game changing plays from one team (while letting the other team keep theirs, of course) you can pretty much make any series a toss up. The bottom line is that despite the strange lore that series has taken, we took care of them in 6 and annihilated them in the decisive game on their home floor. |
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x75274
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| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| mhan00 wrote: | | leor_77 wrote: | | I initially laughed when reading this, but to be honest...If Ariza hadn't gotten those steals, it would have been a much tougher/questionable series. |
Every team that wins a championship, especially multiples, has key moments or lucky breaks or incredibly clutch play/shots that if it happened differently, maybe a ring doesn’t happen. Every team that loses in the playoffs has “woulda coulda shoulda”s. Even teams that got swept or beaten in five can point to key points where if they had gone differently, maybe momentum would have shifted and the series would have been completely different. Nick Anderson bricking 4 straight fts against the Rockets, any one of which could have iced the game, comes to mind. Like Pat Riley once said (paraphrased): “If you woulda and coulda, you shoulda”. |
The Lakers vs Pistons of the 80s is much like this:
1988:BS call against Laimbeer for Kareem
1989: I would love to see how the Pistons would do against the Lakers if they lost Dumars before Game 1 and Thomas in the middle of game 2
Hell a Lakers vs Pistons matchup in 1990 if James Worthy didnt stink up the joint against Phoenix |
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kentu_tiro
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| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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That team was pretty fun to watch. Loved how the pieces all fit nicely with the triangle including Ariza.
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panamaniac
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| leor_77 wrote: | | I initially laughed when reading this, but to be honest...If Ariza hadn't gotten those steals, it would have been a much tougher/questionable series. |
Those two steals must have messed him up since he was pretty terrible the rest of the series. |
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calistrtballr
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:25 am Post subject: |
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| Meh. That rockets team put up more of a fight that year. Nuggets series was never in doubt. Kobe was unstoppable |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| GOODRICH25 wrote: | | CandyCanes wrote: | | It’s strange that that series was so close when we had swept them in the first round the year prior. The Iverson for Billups trade really made a big difference. |
I think its a combination of a few things. AI still was great at that time, led the team in scoring (while shooting as efficiently as Melo), assists and steals, but he was taking away from the one aspect of the game Melo was the best at, which is scoring. They still won 50 games, which is only 4 less than the year after with Billups. Difference? West was a madhouse, so the 1st year they finished 8th and the next they were 2nd. Bumping into us 1st vs meeting us in the conference finals is a huge deal.
Billups was a better fit to Melo and he was more of a leader. In 2008 they were 2nd best offense and 2nd worst defense, despite Camby being the BLKs leader. In 2009 their offense dropped to 6th but the defense improved to 18th. They let old Camby go and unleashed Nene and JR Smith. Melo improved mentally and player wise, and they had a peak year. But they were simply not on our level. The following year that same team collapsed vs the Jazz in the 1st round and that was the end of the road for Melo in Denver. He was never beating us, unless he joined the Spurs maybe, so he best be quiet. |
Denver was the 8 seed in 2008. They were a 2 seed in 2009 and playing their best basketball the last couple of months. Phil mention late in the season that Denver was playing at a much higher level. |
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FrankUnderwood
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Not even close. Kobe was unstoppable that entire playoff run. Also, Orland would have beat Denver. They get underrated because of how badly we smoked them in the Finals. Melo is somking some good (bleep) |
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Cutheon
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| FrankUnderwood wrote: | | Not even close. Kobe was unstoppable that entire playoff run. Also, Orland would have beat Denver. They get underrated because of how badly we smoked them in the Finals. Melo is somking some good (bleep) |
IDK, the Jameer Nelson injury hurt them. That still happens even if Denver wins. Billups would have tore up Rafer Alston. |
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Cutheon
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| calistrtballr wrote: | | Meh. That rockets team put up more of a fight that year. Nuggets series was never in doubt. Kobe was unstoppable |
No, the Lakers were just lazy and DGAF on the road against the Rockets. They barely cared once Yao went down, they knew they would win eventually. The Nuggets were legit. It took Kobe having two 40 point games and two key Ariza steals to eek out a 2-1 series lead. And Game 5 was tied 75-75 going into the 4th until we turned it around - remember, it was key shots from Shannon (a huge dunk on Birdman) and LO (a 3) that really got us over the hump, physically and mentally, to realize they truly could not handle us. After THAT, the series was over, and we owned that team.
Last edited by Cutheon on Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:35 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Snipes wrote: | Not sure how Melo is “blazing”.
They were definitely our toughest competition that year. I remember thinking if we can just beat Denver we are fine. They had a lot of guys to throw on Kobe and their energy and 3pt shooting was insane. It just didn’t work out for them and they almost stole both games in LA. Came down to a Trevor Ariza steal I think in game 1.
We put the clamps on them in game 6 and embarrassed them. I think that’s why most people forget how competitive that series was. Oh and prime Kobe was not losing to anyone that year and that didn’t help Denver’s case. |
This is how I remember it. I can’t blame Carmelo for feeling that way. They had their shot, and they didn’t get it done. Ariza’s steal in Game 3 was the turning point. The narrative of Carmelo’s career would have been different if they had won that series.
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Cutheon
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| panamaniac wrote: | | leor_77 wrote: | | I initially laughed when reading this, but to be honest...If Ariza hadn't gotten those steals, it would have been a much tougher/questionable series. |
Those two steals must have messed him up since he was pretty terrible the rest of the series. |
No, he had a bad game 4, but he was a solid contributor in game 5 (12/5/4/2 blocks) and a huge part of our blowout in Game 6 (+27, 7/9, 3/4 from 3, 17 points, 4 boards, and a steal). He was a major reason we ran them out of the building. |
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Cutheon
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Cutheon wrote: | | calistrtballr wrote: | | Meh. That rockets team put up more of a fight that year. Nuggets series was never in doubt. Kobe was unstoppable |
No, the Lakers were just lazy and DGAF on the road against the Rockets. They barely cared once Yao went down, they knew they would win eventually. The Nuggets were legit. It took Kobe having two 40 point games and two key Ariza steals to eek out a 2-1 series lead. And Game 5 was tied 75-75 going into the 4th until we turned it around - remember, it was key dunks from Shannon and LO that really got us over the hump, physically and mentally, to realize they truly could not handle us. After THAT, the series was over, and we owned that team. |
Rewatching it. We were down 73-66 at home with 4:57 left in the 3rd in a 2-2 series. From there, Shannon and LO go on a 7-0 run, with Ariza, Gasol, and Shannon making several key defensive plays (at one point we forced 4 consecutive turnovers). Denver would hit a 3, then Kobe would hit a 3 (76-76). It would remain that way until the 4th. The game was in fact tied at the end of each quarter . . . except the most important one 
Oh, and LO's key dunk came in the 4th (he hit a huge 3 in the 3rd). |
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GOODRICH25
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve007 wrote: | | GOODRICH25 wrote: | | CandyCanes wrote: | | It’s strange that that series was so close when we had swept them in the first round the year prior. The Iverson for Billups trade really made a big difference. |
I think its a combination of a few things. AI still was great at that time, led the team in scoring (while shooting as efficiently as Melo), assists and steals, but he was taking away from the one aspect of the game Melo was the best at, which is scoring. They still won 50 games, which is only 4 less than the year after with Billups. Difference? West was a madhouse, so the 1st year they finished 8th and the next they were 2nd. Bumping into us 1st vs meeting us in the conference finals is a huge deal.
Billups was a better fit to Melo and he was more of a leader. In 2008 they were 2nd best offense and 2nd worst defense, despite Camby being the BLKs leader. In 2009 their offense dropped to 6th but the defense improved to 18th. They let old Camby go and unleashed Nene and JR Smith. Melo improved mentally and player wise, and they had a peak year. But they were simply not on our level. The following year that same team collapsed vs the Jazz in the 1st round and that was the end of the road for Melo in Denver. He was never beating us, unless he joined the Spurs maybe, so he best be quiet. |
Denver was the 8 seed in 2008. They were a 2 seed in 2009 and playing their best basketball the last couple of months. Phil mention late in the season that Denver was playing at a much higher level. |
They improved by 4 wins, not that huge of a growth. They run into us in the 1st round one year vs in the conference finals the other year, thats the main difference
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panamaniac
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| Cutheon wrote: | | panamaniac wrote: | | leor_77 wrote: | | I initially laughed when reading this, but to be honest...If Ariza hadn't gotten those steals, it would have been a much tougher/questionable series. |
Those two steals must have messed him up since he was pretty terrible the rest of the series. |
No, he had a bad game 4, but he was a solid contributor in game 5 (12/5/4/2 blocks) and a huge part of our blowout in Game 6 (+27, 7/9, 3/4 from 3, 17 points, 4 boards, and a steal). He was a major reason we ran them out of the building. |
I was referring to Melo. He was pretty bad after game 3. |
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x75274
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| A healthy Garnett would have made the Celtics our toughest competition by far. Rondo had taken the next step and that squad started the year 27-2. That Celtic team legitimately had 4 all stars. We beat them in home on Christmas Day mostly because we had more to prove and play for but that win at the Garden winning in overtime after Pau blocked Ray Allens shot was huge for confidence building because that was a full Celtics squad and they were winning 80%+ of the game |
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GOODRICH25
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| x75274 wrote: | | A healthy Garnett would have made the Celtics our toughest competition by far. Rondo had taken the next step and that squad started the year 27-2. That Celtic team legitimately had 4 all stars. We beat them in home on Christmas Day mostly because we had more to prove and play for but that win at the Garden winning in overtime after Pau blocked Ray Allens shot was huge for confidence building because that was a full Celtics squad and they were winning 80%+ of the game |
Agree, 2009 Celtics were flat out scary at that point, if they stayed healthy things could have went different for us and Kobes legacy. Garnett still was great after that but never the same monster
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non-player zealot
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| kentu_tiro wrote: | | That team was pretty fun to watch. Loved how the pieces all fit nicely with the triangle including Ariza. |
I personally enjoyed how there was an ending to that season. Try to imagine a playoff schedule in May and June. Teams would play each other at different venues among crowds. That's just insane.
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non-player zealot
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| x75274 wrote: | | A healthy Garnett would have made the Celtics our toughest competition by far. Rondo had taken the next step and that squad started the year 27-2. That Celtic team legitimately had 4 all stars. We beat them in home on Christmas Day mostly because we had more to prove and play for but that win at the Garden winning in overtime after Pau blocked Ray Allens shot was huge for confidence building because that was a full Celtics squad and they were winning 80%+ of the game |
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FrankUnderwood
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Cutheon wrote: | | FrankUnderwood wrote: | | Not even close. Kobe was unstoppable that entire playoff run. Also, Orland would have beat Denver. They get underrated because of how badly we smoked them in the Finals. Melo is somking some good (bleep) |
IDK, the Jameer Nelson injury hurt them. That still happens even if Denver wins. Billups would have tore up Rafer Alston. |
Orlando had some matchups they would have taken advantage of as well especially Hedo and Rashard Lewis and Dwight. That Orlando team was one of the best spacing teams of that era. ORL in 6 if they played Denver. They'd have HCA too against DEN |
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FrankUnderwood
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| GOODRICH25 wrote: | | x75274 wrote: | | A healthy Garnett would have made the Celtics our toughest competition by far. Rondo had taken the next step and that squad started the year 27-2. That Celtic team legitimately had 4 all stars. We beat them in home on Christmas Day mostly because we had more to prove and play for but that win at the Garden winning in overtime after Pau blocked Ray Allens shot was huge for confidence building because that was a full Celtics squad and they were winning 80%+ of the game |
Agree, 2009 Celtics were flat out scary at that point, if they stayed healthy things could have went different for us and Kobes legacy. Garnett still was great after that but never the same monster |
We can all play the what if he was healthy game. What if Ariza and Bynum were healthy in the 08 Finals? Or what if Bynum is hobbled again playing on one leg in 2009 playoffs? |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Orlando actually swept us in the regular season so I did have some concerns about playing that team, especially after they dominated Lebrons’ Cavs. If it wasn’t for the home court edge I would have thought the Cavs would be an easier matchup. And we swept the Cavs. |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| GOODRICH25 wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | GOODRICH25 wrote: | | CandyCanes wrote: | | It’s strange that that series was so close when we had swept them in the first round the year prior. The Iverson for Billups trade really made a big difference. |
I think its a combination of a few things. AI still was great at that time, led the team in scoring (while shooting as efficiently as Melo), assists and steals, but he was taking away from the one aspect of the game Melo was the best at, which is scoring. They still won 50 games, which is only 4 less than the year after with Billups. Difference? West was a madhouse, so the 1st year they finished 8th and the next they were 2nd. Bumping into us 1st vs meeting us in the conference finals is a huge deal.
Billups was a better fit to Melo and he was more of a leader. In 2008 they were 2nd best offense and 2nd worst defense, despite Camby being the BLKs leader. In 2009 their offense dropped to 6th but the defense improved to 18th. They let old Camby go and unleashed Nene and JR Smith. Melo improved mentally and player wise, and they had a peak year. But they were simply not on our level. The following year that same team collapsed vs the Jazz in the 1st round and that was the end of the road for Melo in Denver. He was never beating us, unless he joined the Spurs maybe, so he best be quiet. |
Denver was the 8 seed in 2008. They were a 2 seed in 2009 and playing their best basketball the last couple of months. Phil mention late in the season that Denver was playing at a much higher level. |
They improved by 4 wins, not that huge of a growth. They run into us in the 1st round one year vs in the conference finals the other year, thats the main difference |
I think they improved by more than that. Melo missed 16 games and they were 9-7 in those games. So I could easily see them winning more than 54 games with him being healthier. And it’s hard to improve by 5-6 wins when you win at least 50 games.
And Denver was 8-2 in the playoffs. They were dominating the competition. They won a playoff game by 58 points. I don’t think the 2008 team could dominate the West like that. |
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x75274
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| FrankUnderwood wrote: | | GOODRICH25 wrote: | | x75274 wrote: | | A healthy Garnett would have made the Celtics our toughest competition by far. Rondo had taken the next step and that squad started the year 27-2. That Celtic team legitimately had 4 all stars. We beat them in home on Christmas Day mostly because we had more to prove and play for but that win at the Garden winning in overtime after Pau blocked Ray Allens shot was huge for confidence building because that was a full Celtics squad and they were winning 80%+ of the game |
Agree, 2009 Celtics were flat out scary at that point, if they stayed healthy things could have went different for us and Kobes legacy. Garnett still was great after that but never the same monster |
We can all play the what if he was healthy game. What if Ariza and Bynum were healthy in the 08 Finals? Or what if Bynum is hobbled again playing on one leg in 2009 playoffs? |
There is no need to bring up what ifs with Bynum when it comes to 2009. He didnt do jack squat for us in that playoffs. We would have won the whole thing without him if we gave Josh Powell a few minutes and gave Bynum's minutes and added more to mostly Lamar's minutes. I remember 1 game Bynum made a real impact and it wouldnt have mattered if he was there or not because we would beaten them anyways: Game 7 vs Rockets. Keep in mind I am a Bynum fan who always believed his true potential was a Shaq/Duncan hybrid.
As for 08, we still arent beating the Celtics - come on stop it. Anybody who closely watched that era Lakers knows we were not beating the Celtics that year - especially the horrible ref job in game 2 at Boston. Bynum wasnt ready for the speed and intensity of the playoffs as we saw one postseason later. Nor was he particularly ready for Perkins at that point in time either as Perk handled him quite easily the one time they met in the regular season before Bynum got injured by Odom. But even if those 2 could help us steal a game (unlikely given how each of those losses played out but possible), we play Boston in game 7 at Boston. I dont like our chances. |
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