Michael Cooper or Byron Scott?
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Michael Cooper or Byron Scott
Michael Cooper
80%
 80%  [ 33 ]
Byron Scott
19%
 19%  [ 8 ]
Total Votes : 41

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:55 pm    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
CabinCreek44 wrote:

Coop was also one of the great underrated clutch shooters. Drained many a big shot in many a big moment.


1988 WCSF Gm 5, game winning shot https://youtu.be/MV8tpn6IY0M?t=40s


That was a white knuckle series. Crazy how Stockton and Malone didn't ascend quicker after that year. They wasted their prime and didn't go to the finals until 1997.

But man Coop was looking done. He annoyed me the way Horry used to. And this is why we tend to glorify role players when we take a stroll down memory lane. Because I've always said we don't need their last minute heroics if they would only hit their shots in the first 45 minutes of the game. LOL!


Utah got eliminated in the 1st round in 89 by GS (fairly heavy upset), in 90 by PHX, in 93 by SEA, in 95 by HOU, almost in 99 to SAC, in 2001 by DAL. Sometimes teams are hot at the right time, but that's a lot for a team like Utah who win 50 plus every year. That's a lot for a team w/ Stock/Malone. The loss in 95 was to the eventual champs, but it was a series where they faltered in typical style in the clincher. Couldn't rise to the occasion, HOU could 6th seed or not. In 01 they were older, but the Mavs were soft as were the Warriors in 89.

In 94, Utah had a run, but got taken to 7 by the 8th seeded Nuggets. In that series, Larry Miller yelled at Sloan to yank Malone from the game from his seat near the court. It was televised and Malone took umbrage and sulked like he often did. After they scraped by DEN, they lost in 5 to HOU. That was one of their good years. In 96, they got to Gm7 of the WCFs against SEA, but the Sonic crowd got into Malone's head by counting down from 10-1 when he went to the foul line because he took more than the allotted 10 secs to shoot. He boinked FTs in those games, some of them tight scores, he shot 6/12 in Gm7 at SEA which the Jazz lost by 4 points. He shot 12/16 in a 4 pt loss in Gm2 and 7/13 in an OT win in Gm5. In the 97 Finals the FTs came back to haunt him when he missed two in the final secs and Mike hit a buzzer winner. I watched that live, was not surprised in the least. Most fans familiar with Karl or the Jazz weren't. They also had a 57 point game in the 98 Finals. They could beat our asses tho.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:57 pm    Post subject:

x75274 wrote:
I think Lord Byron deserves more credit.


He's one of the greatest poets of all time. There.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:13 pm    Post subject:

x75274 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
x75274 wrote:
I think Lord Byron deserves more credit. At the time in the late 80s Magic and Byron were considered the premier backcourt ahead of Isiah and Joe, Porter and Drexler, Jordan and Paxson, KJ and Hornacek etc.



If the Lakers were the best back courtroom, it was mostly because of Magic, not Byron. So that's a semantics game where you are trying to give Byron credit that really doesn't belong to him.

In the late 80s, here are the guys who made an all-star team in the west over Byron: Jordan, Drexler, Alvin Robertson, Fat Lever, Dale Ellis, Rolando Blackman, and Walter Davis.

There were probably only a couple of years in his career where Byron was even in the top third of shooting guards in the league.


That isnt true about the backcourt thing where its mostly due to Magic. If that were the case, Paxson-Jordan would be considered best and no one considered them the best backcourt. Back in that time period, Dumars and Scott were considered comparable peers. Amongst that all star list, there is no way I am choosing Dale Ellis and Walter Davis over Byron Scott. No way in hell with their lack of defense. Fat Lever couldn't shoot anywhere close to Byron's ability. I do like Blackman a lot and think he would fit well next to Magic and would be a Byron upgrade. Alvin Robertson better defender than Scott but offensively I take Byron so that is a wash.



It's cool that you wouldn't choose those guys as all-stars, but the reality is NBA coaches and fans actually did. They were also all-NBA guys -- something Byron also never achieved.

I have to say, the Cliff note version you're giving of some of these guys makes me wonder if you know anything about them as players.

Roberston, for example, was one of the best defenders in NBA history, and a guy who could score, rebound and pass. He once got a quadruple double -- 20 pts, 11 rebounds, 10 assists and 10 steals. So the notion that Byron's offense equals Robertson's his defense and that's the whole story is a little silly.

There's a reason Robertson made four all-star teams over Byron, and it wasn't just defense.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:31 pm    Post subject:

I think Byron got all those PPG because he was a distinct 4th option and only hit 20PPG+ when LAL force-fed him the ball.

It's Cooper, and not just because he's my favorite player. Cooper has been the 3 and D archetype that is so heralded today, versatile position wise on offense (though he wasn't exactly a dynamic PnR guy), but switchable on defense despite the weight disadvantage. Motor, length.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:10 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
I think Byron got all those PPG because he was a distinct 4th option and only hit 20PPG+ when LAL force-fed him the ball.

It's Cooper, and not just because he's my favorite player. Cooper has been the 3 and D archetype that is so heralded today, versatile position wise on offense (though he wasn't exactly a dynamic PnR guy), but switchable on defense despite the weight disadvantage. Motor, length.


And Coop ran the offense when magic sat. The Lakers brought in different point guards such as Wes Mathews, Ronnie Lester, etc, but it was mainly Coop who ran the offense with Magic on the bench.


Defensive genius, good point guard, 3 point specialist, play multiple positions and guard multiple positions and 5 Chips. If Bobby Jones is in the HOF then Coop deserves to be in also.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:35 pm    Post subject:

OCWA wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
I think Byron got all those PPG because he was a distinct 4th option and only hit 20PPG+ when LAL force-fed him the ball.

It's Cooper, and not just because he's my favorite player. Cooper has been the 3 and D archetype that is so heralded today, versatile position wise on offense (though he wasn't exactly a dynamic PnR guy), but switchable on defense despite the weight disadvantage. Motor, length.


And Coop ran the offense when magic sat. The Lakers brought in different point guards such as Wes Mathews, Ronnie Lester, etc, but it was mainly Coop who ran the offense with Magic on the bench.


Defensive genius, good point guard, 3 point specialist, play multiple positions and guard multiple positions and 5 Chips. If Bobby Jones is in the HOF then Coop deserves to be in also.


5x All Star Bobby Jones that nearly averaged a double double and floated around 2 blocks and 2 steals a game? Nah.

Cooper is a former DPOY, but he's not THAT dude.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:55 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
OCWA wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
I think Byron got all those PPG because he was a distinct 4th option and only hit 20PPG+ when LAL force-fed him the ball.

It's Cooper, and not just because he's my favorite player. Cooper has been the 3 and D archetype that is so heralded today, versatile position wise on offense (though he wasn't exactly a dynamic PnR guy), but switchable on defense despite the weight disadvantage. Motor, length.


And Coop ran the offense when magic sat. The Lakers brought in different point guards such as Wes Mathews, Ronnie Lester, etc, but it was mainly Coop who ran the offense with Magic on the bench.


Defensive genius, good point guard, 3 point specialist, play multiple positions and guard multiple positions and 5 Chips. If Bobby Jones is in the HOF then Coop deserves to be in also.


5x All Star Bobby Jones that nearly averaged a double double and floated around 2 blocks and 2 steals a game? Nah.

Cooper is a former DPOY, but he's not THAT dude.



I agree that Bobby Jones was a stud, but something tells me there could be an east coast bias regarding the respect Cooper gets. If he had played on Celtic (Or Knicks, 76ers) championship teams it would probably increase the likely hood of him getting in. KC Jones is in. BTW Coop is my fave player of all time, So I am biased myself.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:10 am    Post subject:

OCWA wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
OCWA wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
I think Byron got all those PPG because he was a distinct 4th option and only hit 20PPG+ when LAL force-fed him the ball.

It's Cooper, and not just because he's my favorite player. Cooper has been the 3 and D archetype that is so heralded today, versatile position wise on offense (though he wasn't exactly a dynamic PnR guy), but switchable on defense despite the weight disadvantage. Motor, length.


And Coop ran the offense when magic sat. The Lakers brought in different point guards such as Wes Mathews, Ronnie Lester, etc, but it was mainly Coop who ran the offense with Magic on the bench.


Defensive genius, good point guard, 3 point specialist, play multiple positions and guard multiple positions and 5 Chips. If Bobby Jones is in the HOF then Coop deserves to be in also.


5x All Star Bobby Jones that nearly averaged a double double and floated around 2 blocks and 2 steals a game? Nah.

Cooper is a former DPOY, but he's not THAT dude.



I agree that Bobby Jones was a stud, but something tells me there could be an east coast bias regarding the respect Cooper gets. If he had played on Celtic (Or Knicks, 76ers) championship teams it would probably increase the likely hood of him getting in. KC Jones is in. BTW Coop is my fave player of all time, So I am biased myself.


I don't see any east coast bias in Hall of Fame voting.

In the past few years, the Hall has let in a flood of borderline choices, many of whom were eligible for decades -- Westphal, Sikma, Moncrief, Jones, Cheeks, Zelmo Beatty.

That said, I don't agree with the argument, "Jones wasn't all that great, so if he got in Coop should too." That means you set the bar at the worst guy in the Hall, even if the worst guy was a mistake. So if you start making a case for a guy based on questionable Hall of Fame picks, it suggests your guy isn't all that strong a candidate
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:15 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
OCWA wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
OCWA wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
I think Byron got all those PPG because he was a distinct 4th option and only hit 20PPG+ when LAL force-fed him the ball.

It's Cooper, and not just because he's my favorite player. Cooper has been the 3 and D archetype that is so heralded today, versatile position wise on offense (though he wasn't exactly a dynamic PnR guy), but switchable on defense despite the weight disadvantage. Motor, length.


And Coop ran the offense when magic sat. The Lakers brought in different point guards such as Wes Mathews, Ronnie Lester, etc, but it was mainly Coop who ran the offense with Magic on the bench.


Defensive genius, good point guard, 3 point specialist, play multiple positions and guard multiple positions and 5 Chips. If Bobby Jones is in the HOF then Coop deserves to be in also.


5x All Star Bobby Jones that nearly averaged a double double and floated around 2 blocks and 2 steals a game? Nah.

Cooper is a former DPOY, but he's not THAT dude.



I agree that Bobby Jones was a stud, but something tells me there could be an east coast bias regarding the respect Cooper gets. If he had played on Celtic (Or Knicks, 76ers) championship teams it would probably increase the likely hood of him getting in. KC Jones is in. BTW Coop is my fave player of all time, So I am biased myself.


I don't see any east coast bias in Hall of Fame voting.

In the past few years, the Hall has let in a flood of borderline choices, many of whom were eligible for decades -- Westphal, Sikma, Moncrief, Jones, Cheeks, Zelmo Beatty.

That said, I don't agree with the argument, "Jones wasn't all that great, so if he got in Coop should too." That means you set the bar at the worst guy in the Hall, even if the worst guy was a mistake. So if you start making a case for a guy based on questionable Hall of Fame picks, it suggests your guy isn't all that strong a candidate


No doubt that there are questionable players in the HOF and it would probably be better if it was reserved for only the true greats. If that was the case than Coop doesn't deserve it. But that's not the case.

I stand by my statement that Coop was the 3rd most important player during the Showtime era. I'm not saying he was the 3rd most talented player during the era, but that his importance to Showtime was greater than some others because his invaluable contributions spanned the entire Showtime era. Add in the actual accomplishments of DPOY and multiple all defensive teams and I think he deserves to be there based on the standards that are currently in place.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:46 pm    Post subject:

^ Agreed 100%. Coop is the only guy not named Kareem or Magic who played on all five of the 1980s championship teams.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:44 pm    Post subject:

OCWA wrote:
activeverb wrote:
OCWA wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
OCWA wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
I think Byron got all those PPG because he was a distinct 4th option and only hit 20PPG+ when LAL force-fed him the ball.

It's Cooper, and not just because he's my favorite player. Cooper has been the 3 and D archetype that is so heralded today, versatile position wise on offense (though he wasn't exactly a dynamic PnR guy), but switchable on defense despite the weight disadvantage. Motor, length.


And Coop ran the offense when magic sat. The Lakers brought in different point guards such as Wes Mathews, Ronnie Lester, etc, but it was mainly Coop who ran the offense with Magic on the bench.


Defensive genius, good point guard, 3 point specialist, play multiple positions and guard multiple positions and 5 Chips. If Bobby Jones is in the HOF then Coop deserves to be in also.


5x All Star Bobby Jones that nearly averaged a double double and floated around 2 blocks and 2 steals a game? Nah.

Cooper is a former DPOY, but he's not THAT dude.



I agree that Bobby Jones was a stud, but something tells me there could be an east coast bias regarding the respect Cooper gets. If he had played on Celtic (Or Knicks, 76ers) championship teams it would probably increase the likely hood of him getting in. KC Jones is in. BTW Coop is my fave player of all time, So I am biased myself.


I don't see any east coast bias in Hall of Fame voting.

In the past few years, the Hall has let in a flood of borderline choices, many of whom were eligible for decades -- Westphal, Sikma, Moncrief, Jones, Cheeks, Zelmo Beatty.

That said, I don't agree with the argument, "Jones wasn't all that great, so if he got in Coop should too." That means you set the bar at the worst guy in the Hall, even if the worst guy was a mistake. So if you start making a case for a guy based on questionable Hall of Fame picks, it suggests your guy isn't all that strong a candidate


No doubt that there are questionable players in the HOF and it would probably be better if it was reserved for only the true greats. If that was the case than Coop doesn't deserve it. But that's not the case.

I stand by my statement that Coop was the 3rd most important player during the Showtime era. I'm not saying he was the 3rd most talented player during the era, but that his importance to Showtime was greater than some others because his invaluable contributions spanned the entire Showtime era. Add in the actual accomplishments of DPOY and multiple all defensive teams and I think he deserves to be there based on the standards that are currently in place.


I don't really buy that Coop was the third most important player, but for the sake of argument let's say he was. Seems like your case for him is primarily timing (he was there a little longer than some of the other key players) and fit (he provided intangibles and stuff other guys didn't).

Timing and fit aren't really my idea of Hall of Fame criteria. But in this regard Coop is one of a group of players that people occasionally push for the Hall. They are the intangibles guys who were on dynasties with GOAT-level players: Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Steve Kerr, Bruce Bowen, and Ron Harper.

Coop probably has the best resume of that group because of the DPoY award. But the debate, from a Hall of Fame standpoint, is whether you are giving a player individual honors primarily because he happened to be on great teams that may well have been just as great without him.

Bottom line: If he got in the Hall he would have one of the least impressive resumes, but he wouldn't be the worse. However, if he doesn't get in the Hall I doubt many people will notice his absence.

Personally, I think the Hall of Fame case for Coupe it's pretty simple. They've let in players simply because they were great offensive guys, so they should let in a few who are simply great defensive players. Then you put in, oh, Coop, Artest, Bruce Bowen, Ben Wallace, and Mark Eaton


Last edited by activeverb on Sat Apr 11, 2020 4:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:11 am    Post subject:

Cooooooop.

Byron has some nice ups. Some nice dunks. Some nice pull-ups. Great in the flow and for the flow of the game.

But when you needed a stop in crunch time you were going to rely on coop. Outside of magic and Kareem that made him the most important player to the identity of those championship teams.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2020 3:17 pm    Post subject:

Nice little Coop compilation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEezWSGipAM
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 6:17 pm    Post subject:

For me, its Scott - I long for the days when the Lakers have a guard again, who can shoot from the perimeter like Scott. I love Cooper too, but he was a one-dimensional shooter, who was a great defender. Scott is in my top 3 of SG to ever play for the Lakers: Kobe, Goodrich, Scott.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:29 pm    Post subject:

waterman40 wrote:
For me, its Scott - I long for the days when the Lakers have a guard again, who can shoot from the perimeter like Scott. I love Cooper too, but he was a one-dimensional shooter, who was a great defender. Scott is in my top 3 of SG to ever play for the Lakers: Kobe, Goodrich, Scott.


I guess either Cooper or Scott is pretty much everyone's choice for the third best Lakers shooting guard ever. The only other conceivable choice could be Eddie Jones
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:26 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
waterman40 wrote:
For me, its Scott - I long for the days when the Lakers have a guard again, who can shoot from the perimeter like Scott. I love Cooper too, but he was a one-dimensional shooter, who was a great defender. Scott is in my top 3 of SG to ever play for the Lakers: Kobe, Goodrich, Scott.


I guess either Cooper or Scott is pretty much everyone's choice for the third best Lakers shooting guard ever. The only other conceivable choice could be Eddie Jones


I'd choose Eddie, as much as I love Coop, and he's got the team accolades to back it up.

All defensive 2nd team for 3 years and made All NBA 3rd team once.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:13 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
activeverb wrote:
waterman40 wrote:
For me, its Scott - I long for the days when the Lakers have a guard again, who can shoot from the perimeter like Scott. I love Cooper too, but he was a one-dimensional shooter, who was a great defender. Scott is in my top 3 of SG to ever play for the Lakers: Kobe, Goodrich, Scott.


I guess either Cooper or Scott is pretty much everyone's choice for the third best Lakers shooting guard ever. The only other conceivable choice could be Eddie Jones


I'd choose Eddie, as much as I love Coop, and he's got the team accolades to back it up.

All defensive 2nd team for 3 years and made All NBA 3rd team once.



I guess you mean personal accolades for Eddie rather than team accolades.

Then argument against Eddie is his Lakers career was short and he didn't really have any playoff success here. Also, the all-NBA accolade was after we traded him.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:24 pm    Post subject:

If I was coaching the 80s Lakers and we were playing the 73 win Warriors. I'd put Scott on Curry and Coop on Klay. And I think I could win that series in 5-6 games.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:45 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
If I was coaching the 80s Lakers and we were playing the 73 win Warriors. I'd put Scott on Curry and Coop on Klay. And I think I could win that series in 5-6 games.


Yeah that would be a good series.

But if KD is part of the equation, who is on him? Worthy?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:54 pm    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
You all are seriously underrating Byron Scott.

That 88 team (I believe) that lost to the Pistons in The Finals was a dynamite team. They lost because Scott went down then Magic followed him. Before they both went down, however, the Lakers swept every round before the Finals. The leading scorer that year ... Byron Scott.

Scott that year I believe shot damn near 54% and averaged I believe 22 a game. He was lethal. Scott at his peak was better than Cooper.

It's a shame people don't comprehend how good he was and how important a cog he was in winning rings for the Lakers.


Not only that, but he was gimpy on that hammy all of 89/90 season. He'd go up for a dunk and neither he, you, nor I would know whether he'd bang it off the front of the rim or dunk it. I have consec gms from 90 where he dunked in one game and in the next, he completely gimp'd the takeoff and the ball went out of his hands outta bounds. He'd get a twinge in the same ham and instantly pull back on the dunk. He wasn't the same ever since. It's similar to Cooper after playing that 88 marathon w/ a bad ankle. He was busted ever after, only much worse than Scott was. Interesting that in 93, Scott pulled up for a jumper vs GS at The Forum and he suffered a calf injury that kept him out part of that season. His problems were leg muscle, never bone or joint related.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:00 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:


Then argument against Eddie is his Lakers career was short and he didn't really have any playoff success here. Also, the all-NBA accolade was after we traded him.


Most of the ill-will I thought was due to his head-to-heads vs Rider, who kept talking about how Eddie couldn't hold him (and he was mostly right). Jones, like his mates, were mostly zero's against the Jazz as well. The two defeats to Utah were so thorough that not many of them survived after 98.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:25 pm    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
You all are seriously underrating Byron Scott.

That 88 team (I believe) that lost to the Pistons in The Finals was a dynamite team. They lost because Scott went down then Magic followed him. Before they both went down, however, the Lakers swept every round before the Finals. The leading scorer that year ... Byron Scott.

Scott that year I believe shot damn near 54% and averaged I believe 22 a game. He was lethal. Scott at his peak was better than Cooper.

It's a shame people don't comprehend how good he was and how important a cog he was in winning rings for the Lakers.



That was Byron's best year.

We swept the first round, and rounds two and three went 7 games.

He shot 52.7%. Scott was 19th in the league in true shooting percentage, 19th in FG%, and 20th in 3-point shooting.

It was a high shooting era (the Lakers shot 50.5% as a team and the Celtics led the league at 52.1%).

Byron didn't get any attention for any post season awards. He was probably considered the 5th to 8th best shooting guard in the league that year behind Jordan, Drexler, Fat Lever, Alvin Robertson, and perhaps Dale Ellis and one or two other guys.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:42 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
kikanga wrote:
If I was coaching the 80s Lakers and we were playing the 73 win Warriors. I'd put Scott on Curry and Coop on Klay. And I think I could win that series in 5-6 games.


Yeah that would be a good series.

But if KD is part of the equation, who is on him? Worthy?


That's why I said the 73 win Warriors. The KD Warriors are a different story. Tough to win that series unless Kareem goes supernova.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:46 am    Post subject:

I think it's telling that Scott played more minutes than Cooper. I love Cooper, but Pat Riley played him more minutes because Scott was the better player. Scott was way better on offense, and he guarded PGs better than Cooper (a huge need for the Lakers with a 6'9 PG wo mostly guarded SGs).

Cooper was Josh Richardson or Andre Iguodala -- an exceptional, versatile player who could do it all. Scott was Klay Thompson -- a quietly understated major offensive cog who was also no slouch on defense.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:06 am    Post subject:

Came across an 89 home gm vs GS on an old tape yesterday where Magic strained his hamstring and was reacting the same way with Vitti on the court that he did in the Finals. Spinning around in disgust at the verdict. He left the game and Lakers lost (Teagle 15/21 FGM, dayum). Foreboding for the playoffs. Didn't recall him straining it in a game that RS. He was out for a handful of gms including DET and BOS, which pissed him off no doubt. But now you know for sure that his hamstring had issue in Feb. You sure you wanna have that late May Finals training camp, Coach?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198902080LAL.html
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