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| Who was more dominant? Wilt or Shaq? |
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| Shaq |
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| Total Votes : 56 |
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hydrohead
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 Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| Hammett wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | Shaq's prime was short and sweet but it was very dominating. Y2K Shaq was arguably the single most dominating season ever for any player at any time even compared to Westbrick's triple double average season. Shaq's dominance led to the Lakers winning the champhionship that year unlike how some players like to pad their stats and their teams falter in the playoffs.
I still haven't seen a player who catches the ball inside the painted area equal to two automatic points like Shaq. Shaq could literally dunk the ball even with Iverson hanging on his back.  |
1999-2000 Shaq was one vote away from becoming the first unanimous NBA MVP ever. He lost one vote to Iverson, who won the next season. |
Would rather have that SHAQ on my team then any other player in the last 40 years (including prime Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kobe or LeBron). No player was as dominant on both ends of the floor. In the NFL, you have a shutdown corner. Shaq shutdown the lane completely on defense and was a beast in the post on offense.
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Aeneas Hunter
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GOODRICH25
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| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Mamba81 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | The guy who averaged 30 points, 22 rebounds, and 11 FTA a game for his whole career. |
Inflated stats against bums |
Stats yes but lol at this
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GOODRICH25
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| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Mamba81 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | The guy who averaged 30 points, 22 rebounds, and 11 FTA a game for his whole career. |
Inflated stats against bums |
My favorite thing is going to basketball reference for Wilt and then doing per 36 and watch all the fanatical numbers drop.
Doesn't even account for pace or competition. |
I give big men credit for playing 46 MPG over their career. Tough to twist that into a bad thing.
Time cuts both ways. What does he look like if he had the sports science and technology of the 90s/00s? Somehow more scary.
Even if you talk 2020 NBA. I think Wilt would be more dominant. Trust him to get up and down the court faster, play more minutes, defend the pick and roll better, and just affect a higher % of plays overall.
Not a knock on Shaq though. Wilt is just ... Wiit. |
Well said. Wilt was the full package physically, and nowadays the paint is less protected. He'd dominate today as well
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JUST-MING
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:03 am Post subject: |
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Kareem....
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Corey78
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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I have to go with Shaq on this one. I've never seen such a forceful powerful presence like prime Shaq. Grown men bounced off of him like paper machete. Thunderous dunk after thunderous dunk. I have never seen a physical specimen like Shaq.
Also, for Wilt, we have video of him. Rather than go off of the anecdotal stories of him said his contemporaries which akin him to the legendary status of Paul Bunyan, I'll go off the video. And, even if we don't have all of his video, we have enough to make a determination of his relative basketball athleticism/power/dominance relative to Shaq. In my mind, Shaq surpasses Wilt in regards to functional basketball strength, power, quickness/ agility based on a video comparison. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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Wilt was Shaq like size and David Robinson athleticism. Never been a guy with his physical gifts. Had the bad fortune, like Jerry West, of playing in the stacked Celtics Era, and while I don't think his mentality wins as many titles as Russell with Boston, Russell he wins more than Russell does without them. If he had come along in the eighties? That woulda been something.
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jodeke
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| Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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I voted Wilt. Reason; he played in a era with more dominate C's. e.g. Russell, Willis Reed, Zelmo Beaty, Nate Thurmond, Walt Bellamy, David Robinson to name a few. The 60's, 70's were big man days. How many C's of the aforementioned talent did Shaq face on a game by game basis? Wilt once averaged 50 points and 20 rebounds a game.
I recall a story Bill Russell told about him and Wilt. He said Wilt shot him a dirty elbow and pushed him. Bill said he looked at Wilt and said "Hey man we don't play each other like that." Wilt apologized, they shook hands and continued the game.
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Last edited by jodeke on Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:04 am; edited 2 times in total |
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hydrohead
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:37 am Post subject: |
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Darryl Dawkins is comparable to Shaq?
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jodeke
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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Scoring and size seems to be the criterion for dominance. Bill Russell won 11 ships in 13 years.
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GOODRICH25
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What about Wilt’s performance for the 1967 76ers? Ramsay says, "That was his best year. That might have been his best year ever, that one season. We had a new coach, Alex Hannum. He put in a game plan where the ball went through Wilt consistently. He only averaged 24 points a game, which is not chopped liver, but here is a guy who averaged 50. He didn't shoot. He really was patient. He looked for cutters. He made himself a good passer. That was his best season. That year Philly beat Boston four out of five in the Eastern Finals and then beat the Warriors in six games. Wilt was terrific. I thought that if he had played his career like that he'd have been regarded as a different player." |
From what people in that era say, it looks like Wilt was a super difficult character, he really needed a coach he respected that will challenge him so he could win. He was close beating the Celtics before 1967 as well, playing "his way". He had series where he would score a whole lot on a (sometimes by far) best FG% of anyone in the series, but he still only won when he changed the way he played and let everyone else have their shots, having the offense go through him and not to him (Hal Greer took more and Chet Walker took as many shots as him that season). It took a coach he respected to make him commit to such ideas, which is why he only won with Hannum and Sharman. He beat the Celtics in fashion despite a avg of 21ppg. He outrebounded Russell 32-23, he averaged 10 assists and they won comfortably in 5. Everything was perfect. That being said, he didn't care as much about winning as Russell or Jordan for example. He didn't have that drive to go for one more even when he just won a championship. I imagine that in his mind, his victory in 1967 was enough to him, he proved he can beat Russell if he also had a good team with him and was content with knowing that. That's why they probably lost the following year even though they were supposed to win again. I think he would maybe not win 11 championships in Russells situation, because as much as Russell had the better supporting cast with 8 HOFs, he's also partly responsible for making some of them into HOFs. In Wilts own words when he described Russell as the greatest, maybe some of these players wouldn't be as good with him because he would be taking away from them. Sometimes less is more.
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:29 am Post subject: |
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I’ve always said that adjusting for era, magic and Russell are the first two guys in my draft board.
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GOODRICH25
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | I’ve always said that adjusting for era, magic and Russell are the first two guys in my draft board. |
Russell is just surreal to me. If he didn't get injured in game 3 (or 4? Not sure) of the 1958 finals which the Celtics lost to the Hawks (game 5 and 6 by a total of 3 points), he would have 12 rings in 13 seasons, only losing once to what was at that point the greatest team ever (1967 76ers). That's the only time he legit lost. If you extend it to two years of college where he won two in a row and a Olympic gold, it's even crazier. He solidified his dominance with 5 MVPs, the most in that era.
The funny thing is he has 5 MVPs and only 3 All NBA 1st team selections. MVPs were voted by players until 1980, while to my knowledge All NBA teams were always voted by media, so that's a nice contrast there.
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slavavov
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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I wasn't old enough to watch the NBA until the mid-90s, so I'm not qualified to say who was better. But I have read a lot about NBA history and I will say this:
From what I've read (including in this thread), it sounds like Wilt was soft and maybe too concerned about people liking him. That story jodeke shared about him apologizing to Bill Russell highlighted that. If I were Wilt, I would've told Russell to go F himself instead.
Plus, I read that Wilt choked in big games. Why didn't he destroy a one-legged Willis Reed in Game 7 of the 1970 Finals? Why didn't he do the same to an old and decrepit Russell in Game 7 the year before?
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GOODRICH25
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| slavavov wrote: | I wasn't old enough to watch the NBA until the mid-90s, so I'm not qualified to say who was better. But I have read a lot about NBA history and I will say this:
From what I've read (including in this thread), it sounds like Wilt was soft and maybe too concerned about people liking him. That story jodeke shared about him apologizing to Bill Russell highlighted that. If I were Wilt, I would've told Russell to go F himself instead.
Plus, I read that Wilt choked in big games. Why didn't he destroy a one-legged Willis Reed in Game 7 of the 1970 Finals? Why didn't he do the same to an old and decrepit Russell in Game 7 the year before? |
Willis Reed played only 27 minutes, took 5 shots, scores 4 points early on (for 02-00 and 05-02 score) and grabbed 3 rebounds in game 7 that year. Fraizer had 36 on 12-17 FG% and 12-12 FT%, along with 7 rebounds and 19!!! assists. Chamberlain finished with 21pts on 16 shots, 24 rebounds, but was abysmal even for his standards from the FT line (1-11), so I can see why he would be called out. West had 28 and Baylor 19. But the game was kind of a blowout with the Knicks winning by 14 and getting the lead early on. The missed opportunity was game 5 when Reed went down early and the game was lost by 7. Chamberlain took only 12 shots, still led the team in scoring, but you could argue he should have shot way more with Reed out, and the Lakers missing Happy Hairston. Was that due to game plan or his own will I can't tell. But had they won game 5 in NY, they would be going back to LA with a 3-2 lead, which is a huge advantage vs a Reed less NY.
In 1969 the coach wouldn't let him back in for the last few minutes of game 7, when they were making this huge comeback and Russell was in foul trouble. If you look at the series as a whole, he was 5th on the team in FGA, which should never happen, even if he tried to change his game to defense 1st and pass 1st. He still grabbed his rebounds, 25 a game but 12ppg for one of the all time great scorers is just wrong. Jerry West scored 40+ points 4 time that series (of which one was a 53pt game in game 1 victory), and two of those games they lost by a total of 3 points (game 4 in Boston by one, game 7 in LA by 2), so naturally you would look at the other 2 stars for blame. Baylor shot less than 40%FG for 18ppg, Chamberlain averaged 12ppg, which was probably why such a close series was lost.
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slavavov
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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As far as Shaq's dominance, here's an image I'll always remember from the year we beat the Sixers to win the world championship:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vma7PlO6kFI
It's hilarious how Shaq's fat butt and overall power literally lifted Mutumbo, the DPOY, off the ground just by backing him down.
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buduan
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| Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | I voted Wilt. Reason; he played in a era with more dominate C's. e.g. Russell, Willis Reed, Zelmo Beaty, Nate Thurmond, Walt Bellamy, David Robinson to name a few. The 60's, 70's were big man days. How many C's of the aforementioned talent did Shaq face on a game by game basis? Wilt once averaged 50 points and 20 rebounds a game.
I recall a story Bill Russell told about him and Wilt. He said Wilt shot him a dirty elbow and pushed him. Bill said he looked at Wilt and said "Hey man we don't play each other like that." Wilt apologized, they shook hands and continued the game. |
This is a joke right? David Robinson never played against Wilt. Both guys played against all time great centers. Shaq had to face prime Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, etc... while Wilt faced the GOAT Kareem, Nate Thurmond, Bill Russell, etc.. |
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Corey78
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| slavavov wrote: | As far as Shaq's dominance, here's an image I'll always remember from the year we beat the Sixers to win the world championship:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vma7PlO6kFI
It's hilarious how Shaq's fat butt and overall power literally lifted Mutumbo, the DPOY, off the ground just by backing him down. |
Yes, I don't think people grasp how massive Shaq was. Wilt's playing weight was anywhere from 250-300 (about 270) in his prime. That is comparable to Shaq as a rookie. In his prime, Shaq moved like a gazelle at 340-350 pounds. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Corey78 wrote: | | slavavov wrote: | As far as Shaq's dominance, here's an image I'll always remember from the year we beat the Sixers to win the world championship:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vma7PlO6kFI
It's hilarious how Shaq's fat butt and overall power literally lifted Mutumbo, the DPOY, off the ground just by backing him down. |
Yes, I don't think people grasp how massive Shaq was. Wilt's playing weight was anywhere from 250-300 (about 270) in his prime. That is comparable to Shaq as a rookie. In his prime, Shaq moved like a gazelle at 340-350 pounds. |
Shaq weighed more; Wilt was probably stronger and more athletic. That said they were both big, strong and athletic in their prime.
I don't know how you can really compare their physical dominance in any meaningful way. |
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| GOODRICH25 wrote: | Wilt was restricted by rules so its an unfair comparison. Shaq would foul out by halftime each game if he tried to body his opponents in the 60s like he did in his time. Wilt was bigger, quicker, stronger, faster, more athletic, so he takes it for me. His other problem was that he was afraid of his own strength, so he would try to avoid physicality due to being cautious for his opponents health/life. Despite these restrictions, he put up 40-25-3.5 on 51%FG, and God knows how many blocks and steals, in his 1st 7 years in the league. He led the league in scoring all of those 7 years, in rebounds 5/7 years, FG% 4/7 years, and minutes pg 6/7 years. Then someone convinced him (he himself after seeing the Celtics win each year?) he has to have the offense run through him as a facilitator if he wants to 'win', so he changed his game and took way less shots. It resulted in a big drop in point averages, 20-21-5.5, but on 62%FG (and somehow even worse FT%), and 2 rings/5 finals, so i guess it paid off?
Shaq exploited the rules wonderfully and was one of the most successful Lakers ever with a 3peat, but id love to see him try bullying Wilt in the post |
i mean, Shaq has sort of talked about this exactly himself....
He actually said Wilt was too skilled for him to try to emulate that. So he decided that he was going to use his physicality because he essentially couldn't do the things Wilt could. |
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