Let Us Reminisce: Vlade Divac
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jonnybravo
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:48 pm    Post subject:

Steve007 wrote:
oasisdude77 wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
People forget that the year we upset Seattle, he was a 16/10/4 centerwith 2 blocks a game. After he missed those clutch free throws against the Spurs, it seemed to me like he was never quite the same. He shot 77% from the line in 94-95 and shot about 10% worse on average for the reset of his career.

He was really, REALLY good.

I remember him blocking Kobe on a break. That was Frobe version 1.0 too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CFlaVVUT_k

Kobe even mentioned later (laughingly) that he was determined to pay Vlade back for that.


Oh man, those two missed free throws! All he needed was one for us to steal game 2. And that was the series we took them to 6 games with Nick hitting that running 3 pointer almost at the buzzer to force game 6. And if we won that series, we would've then played the Rockets in the WCF, who we, oddly, owned that season.


Wow, I didn’t realize we swept the Rockets. But they didn’t play well during the season and the Jazz, Spurs and Magic all dominated the Rockets too before losing to them in the playoffs. I thought we would beat the Rockets in the 96 playoffs and that series was ugly to watch.

Losing game 2 sucked but I really doubt we beat the Spurs even if Vlade hits those free throws and the series gets tied at 1-1. They crushed us 3 times in the regular season and won the big games in the series pretty convincingly. I really hoped Van Exel winning game 5 would bring some momentum into game 6, which was in LA, but the Spurs won that game without much trouble despite that being a bigger game for us. We had a pretty weak performance in game 4 also, which was in LA. We were down 2-1, had some momentum after winning game 3 and the Spurs won in LA despite not being in as desperate of a situation. And the Spurs won game 1 in a blowout.

Assuming we beat the Spurs I find it hard to believe we beat the Rockets and Magic, although we did play the Magic pretty well in the very small number of games in the 95 and 96 seasons. We would have been a higher seed against the Rockets, but I wouldn’t bet against Hakeem that year. The next year it was basically the same team plus Magic and we got knocked out of the first round.

And this is why the team got Shaq and Kobe obviously. Cedric Ceballos was the only all-star in the 95 and 96 seasons. I was so excited when Magic Johnson came back because I badly wanted the team to have a big name that people took more seriously. If Cedric Ceballos lead the 95 team to a ring it would have been a bigger surprise than the Rockets winning it in my opinion.


I think you're conflating the years. Cedric didn't make the All-Star team in 95/96. He made it once in his first year with us in 94/95...same year we took the Spurs to 6 games in the 2nd round. IIRC, Cedric didn't even get to play in the game after Dikembe broke his hand.

The following year in 95/96 we were mediocre until Magic unretired (the Sprewell fake was one of my favorite memories). I remember there were reports that Nick as starting to get too big for his britches after his coming out party against the spurs the year prior. We tore it up after Magic retired but Cedric/Nick began to fade into the background...there's only one ball after all. Houston got us 3-1 in the first round. I still think we had the better squad, but chemistry was faling apart fast towards the end of that season.

*edit* - Kind of sad I can barely remember what I had for breakfast yet I can recall crap like this lol.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:57 pm    Post subject:

non-player zealot wrote:
Steve007 wrote:


The Spurs were the team I was most worried about. They were on a roll the second half of the season. Their record was 40-6 in the last 46 games and then they swept the first round. I felt much more comfortable against the Sonics because we kept having success against them.


Was looking at the boxes on bballref. All the 90s heads will remember this, but in order to diss him again merely by bringing this up, Ceballos was crap for us for the POs. Straight RS player, sad to discover, and he had no self-awareness when he would refer to himself as Chise. Early into the 95/6 season, still fresh from his disappointing playoffs, he had the gall to yell "NOT READY!" at rookie Garnett in a preseason game, so he was arrogant in his incorrectness. Sometimes you have to find out on your own why a guy was predominantly a bench type on his prior team.

As for the Spurs in 1995, we shot 390-400 for those games. Ughly and their team D was good, especially when Rodman felt like being serious. When he wasn't, he was pissing off Bob Hill by taking his shoes off every time he checked out and they had to wait for him to put them back on when called on. What a weirdo. He had a 22/22 gm on us in that series. We managed to let Rodman score 22 points. And another thing is that series had God awful reffing from stem to stern, mostly against us. Even in the Game 6 win, you could tell those bastards were ready to close the curtain on our season. Vlade legitimately got knocked down in the first few mins by Cummings and Chick/Stu were disgusted. Javie stared at it, but nada (I'd like to know if Lanny still has any hottakes on the refs in that series). Robbo got away with a 6 step travel back when they used to call traveling. I recapped the Chick verz of that and made sure to include both of those moments, iirc both from the first half. Rodman was all over Vlade and Elden's backs and you couldn't breathe on Robbo or it was a whistle. MVP... We were lucky to get that single win at SA if not the series. And it always sucked how they could get the absolute max out of guys like Del Negro and Avery J and Cummings/Carr or Rivers and so on. We'd get killed by their non-stars and stars alike. In 99, I believe the bane of Laker Nation was Jaren Jackson I.

https://youtu.be/EMXEILEnaRc?t=326

https://youtu.be/a7retRAK3QE?t=1


Ced made a living off off putbacks, cuts, and a bunch of sneaky moves here and there. Chick used to say he could score 20 without having a called play called for him. In the playoffs, when you prep for him, it was as simple as always keeping a body on him. His iso game was trash and he was an unreliable shooter. Not a good combination to have when teams are dialed in to defend you.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:58 pm    Post subject:

oasisdude77 wrote:
Steve007 wrote:
oasisdude77 wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
People forget that the year we upset Seattle, he was a 16/10/4 centerwith 2 blocks a game. After he missed those clutch free throws against the Spurs, it seemed to me like he was never quite the same. He shot 77% from the line in 94-95 and shot about 10% worse on average for the reset of his career.

He was really, REALLY good.

I remember him blocking Kobe on a break. That was Frobe version 1.0 too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CFlaVVUT_k

Kobe even mentioned later (laughingly) that he was determined to pay Vlade back for that.


Oh man, those two missed free throws! All he needed was one for us to steal game 2. And that was the series we took them to 6 games with Nick hitting that running 3 pointer almost at the buzzer to force game 6. And if we won that series, we would've then played the Rockets in the WCF, who we, oddly, owned that season.


Wow, I didn’t realize we swept the Rockets. But they didn’t play well during the season and the Jazz, Spurs and Magic all dominated the Rockets too before losing to them in the playoffs. I thought we would beat the Rockets in the 96 playoffs and that series was ugly to watch.

Losing game 2 sucked but I really doubt we beat the Spurs even if Vlade hits those free throws and the series gets tied at 1-1. They crushed us 3 times in the regular season and won the big games in the series pretty convincingly. I really hoped Van Exel winning game 5 would bring some momentum into game 6, which was in LA, but the Spurs won that game without much trouble despite that being a bigger game for us. We had a pretty weak performance in game 4 also, which was in LA. We were down 2-1, had some momentum after winning game 3 and the Spurs won in LA despite not being in as desperate of a situation. And the Spurs won game 1 in a blowout.

Assuming we beat the Spurs I find it hard to believe we beat the Rockets and Magic, although we did play the Magic pretty well in the very small number of games in the 95 and 96 seasons. We would have been a higher seed against the Rockets, but I wouldn’t bet against Hakeem that year. The next year it was basically the same team plus Magic and we got knocked out of the first round.

And this is why the team got Shaq and Kobe obviously. Cedric Ceballos was the only all-star in the 95 and 96 seasons. I was so excited when Magic Johnson came back because I badly wanted the team to have a big name that people took more seriously. If Cedric Ceballos lead the 95 team to a ring it would have been a bigger surprise than the Rockets winning it in my opinion.


Yeah, I agree with you here. The Spurs were just miles better than us. More than likely, if we stole game 2, it would've been their 'wake-up' call and they probably would've beaten us in game 3 to get their 2-1 edge back.

It's fun to think about as the path was all lined up for us (similar to the '06 playoffs), but that team was just not ready. Very fun to watch tho.

And man, the '96 team looked goood when Magic arrived. Everything was great until Ceballos went jet skiing in Havasu Then Nick shoved a ref and then Magic bumped one like 3 games later. Seems like it all went downhill from here.


Wow, I remember when Nick pushed the ref. I think it was Ron Garretson? Wasn't it the same ref that Magic bumped later? NPZ probably has the footage lol.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:49 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:


Wow, I remember when Nick pushed the ref. I think it was Ron Garretson? Wasn't it the same ref that Magic bumped later? NPZ probably has the footage lol.


I do, it's Foster. Van Exel was Garretson.

https://youtu.be/xFE-HqwE7io?t=334

Tomcat and Nicole! https://youtu.be/xFE-HqwE7io?t=780

Check this team unlacing and ejection by Del where he hi-5s a fan:

https://youtu.be/hpWCu4T5OVQ?t=205

https://youtu.be/hpWCu4T5OVQ?t=242
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:11 am    Post subject:

I can only imagine what would've happened if Magic didn't retire. He was 37 years old and still playing great, after 5 years away from basketball.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:55 am    Post subject:

non-player zealot wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:


Wow, I remember when Nick pushed the ref. I think it was Ron Garretson? Wasn't it the same ref that Magic bumped later? NPZ probably has the footage lol.


I do, it's Foster. Van Exel was Garretson.

https://youtu.be/xFE-HqwE7io?t=334

Tomcat and Nicole! https://youtu.be/xFE-HqwE7io?t=780

Check this team unlacing and ejection by Del where he hi-5s a fan:

https://youtu.be/hpWCu4T5OVQ?t=205

https://youtu.be/hpWCu4T5OVQ?t=242


Haha, I’m probably in the minority, but I loved Del Harris. Obviously I'd take Phil over him but he was a great coach for those transition years.

And smh at Magic. If I remember correctly, he bumped the ref only a few days after admonishing Nick for shoving the ref. Something along the lines of 'you can't do that. You can never never do that...' Then he goes ahead does it ....lol
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:11 am    Post subject:

danzag wrote:
I can only imagine what would've happened if Magic didn't retire. He was 37 years old and still playing great, after 5 years away from basketball.


It would have been so interesting if he got himself into shape, worked on his game and got to play with Shaq the next year. MJ’s comeback didn’t start off much better. His team lost to the Magic, and then he and his team came back better than ever and that happened without adding a player like Shaq to the Bulls. Magic never really gave himself much of a shot to win another title. I guess since he already had 5 it wasn’t as important to him anymore.

When Shaq arrived the team immediately had a problem of having no #2 option. It quickly became clear that Cedric Ceballos wasn’t it. Van Exel was streaky and Eddie wasn’t as effective in the playoffs when the game slowed down. If Magic got to play with Shaq, well let’s just say Magic would have been more than just an effective #2.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:34 am    Post subject:

danzag wrote:
I can only imagine what would've happened if Magic didn't retire. He was 37 years old and still playing great, after 5 years away from basketball.


Magic played well on paper that season if you just look at the stat line. His problem was that he had trouble adjusting to the idea that he was no longer the guy running the show. His teammates complained that he tried to dominate the games too much rather than fit in. He got into constant arguments with them. He chided them for their immaturity, and then he himself got suspended for arguing with the refs.

I could of seen it going either way with him and Shaq.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:18 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
danzag wrote:
I can only imagine what would've happened if Magic didn't retire. He was 37 years old and still playing great, after 5 years away from basketball.


Magic played well on paper that season if you just look at the stat line. His problem was that he had trouble adjusting to the idea that he was no longer the guy running the show. His teammates complained that he tried to dominate the games too much rather than fit in. He got into constant arguments with them. He chided them for their immaturity, and then he himself got suspended for arguing with the refs.

I could of seen it going either way with him and Shaq.


Magic is a politician by nature. He always castigates the current admin or era and once he's in, he starts doing the same things. Imo, he didn't adjust well to the way he was reffed in 96 as opposed to all the years prior and it wasn't just the Foster bump. He was on them with an angrier tone than he ever carried before on a near nightly basis. It was very noticeable. Him bumbing Foster was the culmination of it. He should've shown more understanding to Nick for blowing up at Ron, Jr. He imo wanted to dominate the ball more than the games. He felt he was still the best in the league with his vision and decision making so why NOT have the ball more from Van Exel and Jones and Ced? Other than that, he did fit in pretty well results wise because we were only .500 when he came back and we went on a 30-10 run immediately. The undressing to HOU was disappointing. We lost two RS gms to them by 1 and 4 and I think he missed at least one of those if not both. It didn't give us the practice we needed to seriously go at them in the POs. Losting Gm 1 in a flat, sluggish, halfcourt manner screwed em. Magic had an excellent Gm 2, Hakeem fouling out. We weren't that lucky in HOU. Those games we got beaten by Hak and Smith, Cassell, Horry. Same four who usually did us in. Treys for days they hit. They ran the floor like whores.

His body also was also 5 years out of the game and he was prone to these little sprains and strains. Rolled his ankle in 2 gms, one of them in Gm 2 of the HOU series. He missed a number of gms even in the shortened comeback in order to rest tight calves etc.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:17 pm    Post subject:

non-player zealot wrote:
activeverb wrote:
danzag wrote:
I can only imagine what would've happened if Magic didn't retire. He was 37 years old and still playing great, after 5 years away from basketball.


Magic played well on paper that season if you just look at the stat line. His problem was that he had trouble adjusting to the idea that he was no longer the guy running the show. His teammates complained that he tried to dominate the games too much rather than fit in. He got into constant arguments with them. He chided them for their immaturity, and then he himself got suspended for arguing with the refs.

I could of seen it going either way with him and Shaq.


Magic is a politician by nature. He always castigates the current admin or era and once he's in, he starts doing the same things. Imo, he didn't adjust well to the way he was reffed in 96 as opposed to all the years prior and it wasn't just the Foster bump. He was on them with an angrier tone than he ever carried before on a near nightly basis. It was very noticeable. Him bumbing Foster was the culmination of it. He should've shown more understanding to Nick for blowing up at Ron, Jr. He imo wanted to dominate the ball more than the games. He felt he was still the best in the league with his vision and decision making so why NOT have the ball more from Van Exel and Jones and Ced? Other than that, he did fit in pretty well results wise because we were only .500 when he came back and we went on a 30-10 run immediately. The undressing to HOU was disappointing. We lost two RS gms to them by 1 and 4 and I think he missed at least one of those if not both. It didn't give us the practice we needed to seriously go at them in the POs. Losting Gm 1 in a flat, sluggish, halfcourt manner screwed em. Magic had an excellent Gm 2, Hakeem fouling out. We weren't that lucky in HOU. Those games we got beaten by Hak and Smith, Cassell, Horry. Same four who usually did us in. Treys for days they hit. They ran the floor like whores.

His body also was also 5 years out of the game and he was prone to these little sprains and strains. Rolled his ankle in 2 gms, one of them in Gm 2 of the HOU series. He missed a number of gms even in the shortened comeback in order to rest tight calves etc.


I remember Magic being interviewed in the Shaq off-season and they asked him about Shaq coming to the Lakers. I remember him half laughingly saying "I just might come back another year to throw some lobs to Shaq" or something to that effect. The Lakers, the very next day put it out there that "we're good" (diplomatically of course). Maybe you have that clip. It's been so long but I recall him wearing a red polo in the interview and it looked to be in someone's backyard or something like that.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:15 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
non-player zealot wrote:
activeverb wrote:
danzag wrote:
I can only imagine what would've happened if Magic didn't retire. He was 37 years old and still playing great, after 5 years away from basketball.


Magic played well on paper that season if you just look at the stat line. His problem was that he had trouble adjusting to the idea that he was no longer the guy running the show. His teammates complained that he tried to dominate the games too much rather than fit in. He got into constant arguments with them. He chided them for their immaturity, and then he himself got suspended for arguing with the refs.

I could of seen it going either way with him and Shaq.


Magic is a politician by nature. He always castigates the current admin or era and once he's in, he starts doing the same things. Imo, he didn't adjust well to the way he was reffed in 96 as opposed to all the years prior and it wasn't just the Foster bump. He was on them with an angrier tone than he ever carried before on a near nightly basis. It was very noticeable. Him bumbing Foster was the culmination of it. He should've shown more understanding to Nick for blowing up at Ron, Jr. He imo wanted to dominate the ball more than the games. He felt he was still the best in the league with his vision and decision making so why NOT have the ball more from Van Exel and Jones and Ced? Other than that, he did fit in pretty well results wise because we were only .500 when he came back and we went on a 30-10 run immediately. The undressing to HOU was disappointing. We lost two RS gms to them by 1 and 4 and I think he missed at least one of those if not both. It didn't give us the practice we needed to seriously go at them in the POs. Losting Gm 1 in a flat, sluggish, halfcourt manner screwed em. Magic had an excellent Gm 2, Hakeem fouling out. We weren't that lucky in HOU. Those games we got beaten by Hak and Smith, Cassell, Horry. Same four who usually did us in. Treys for days they hit. They ran the floor like whores.

His body also was also 5 years out of the game and he was prone to these little sprains and strains. Rolled his ankle in 2 gms, one of them in Gm 2 of the HOU series. He missed a number of gms even in the shortened comeback in order to rest tight calves etc.


I remember Magic being interviewed in the Shaq off-season and they asked him about Shaq coming to the Lakers. I remember him half laughingly saying "I just might come back another year to throw some lobs to Shaq" or something to that effect. The Lakers, the very next day put it out there that "we're good" (diplomatically of course). Maybe you have that clip. It's been so long but I recall him wearing a red polo in the interview and it looked to be in someone's backyard or something like that.


IIRC, West put the kibosh on it.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:07 pm    Post subject:

Magic Johnson played a huge role in Divac's development.

Michael was a superior scorer and defender compared to Magic, but Magic was the superior leader and had the innate ability to make those around him better.

It's for these reading that I'll always have Magic as the best basketball player I've ever seen. Jordan needed Phil Jackson and Tex Winters to convince him to empower his teammates. Magic did it naturally.

I don't think Jordan ever wins a championship without Phil Jackson's metaphysical coaching style. Jordan needed to be programmed to work within a team concepts -- the only way he'd ever have a chance to win rings. Magic was born with it. He could've won with a myriad of coaches.

For all the crap Jerry Krause is getting, without his vision, particularly to hire Winters and Jackson, Jordan's career story would look really, really different.

Jordan destroyed weaker players instead of nurturing them. I don't think Divac becomes the player he became if he's drafted to the Chicago Bulls with Jordan on the team. Magic really knew how to empower Divac, whereas Jordan, like he did with Keane Brown, Stacey King, Brad Sellers, and others, would've probably snatched Divac's ever-living soul.
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 10:10 am    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
Magic Johnson played a huge role in Divac's development.

Michael was a superior scorer and defender compared to Magic, but Magic was the superior leader and had the innate ability to make those around him better.

It's for these reading that I'll always have Magic as the best basketball player I've ever seen. Jordan needed Phil Jackson and Tex Winters to convince him to empower his teammates. Magic did it naturally.

I don't think Jordan ever wins a championship without Phil Jackson's metaphysical coaching style. Jordan needed to be programmed to work within a team concepts -- the only way he'd ever have a chance to win rings. Magic was born with it. He could've won with a myriad of coaches.

For all the crap Jerry Krause is getting, without his vision, particularly to hire Winters and Jackson, Jordan's career story would look really, really different.

Jordan destroyed weaker players instead of nurturing them. I don't think Divac becomes the player he became if he's drafted to the Chicago Bulls with Jordan on the team. Magic really knew how to empower Divac, whereas Jordan, like he did with Keane Brown, Stacey King, Brad Sellers, and others, would've probably snatched Divac's ever-living soul.


Krause also signs Kukoc and gets Rodman for peanuts. No way Bulls win another 3 without them.
The only problem with the organization wins championships statement is that he said it. He should have kept it to himself and the front office. Good leaders pass the praise to their workers.
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 3:29 pm    Post subject:

Krause was a beast. Phil Jackson was a great coach, but he ran off two of the best GM'S I've ever seen in Jerry West and Jerry Krause.

Krause was a million times better than Kupchak, especially when it came to supplementing the triangle offense with players that fit that system.

It's a shame how they are demonizing Krause's legacy.
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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 1:17 am    Post subject:

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His body also was also 5 years out of the game and he was prone to these little sprains and strains. Rolled his ankle in 2 gms, one of them in Gm 2 of the HOU series. He missed a number of gms even in the shortened comeback in order to rest tight calves etc.


I’m not surprised he had those injury issues because he was really overweight for an NBA player.

I’m impressed at how well he did after:
1. Being out of the game for so long
2. Being that old and
3. Holding that much weight.


If he was going to come back for another season, he needed to lose a significant amount of weight and I doubt he would have been thrilled about that.
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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 1:26 am    Post subject:

Krause ran off Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen. He even wanted to trade Scottie Pippen after the 97 Finals. It’s interesting that a gm could be so good and so terrible.
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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 4:58 am    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
Magic Johnson played a huge role in Divac's development.

Michael was a superior scorer and defender compared to Magic, but Magic was the superior leader and had the innate ability to make those around him better.

It's for these reading that I'll always have Magic as the best basketball player I've ever seen. Jordan needed Phil Jackson and Tex Winters to convince him to empower his teammates. Magic did it naturally.

I don't think Jordan ever wins a championship without Phil Jackson's metaphysical coaching style. Jordan needed to be programmed to work within a team concepts -- the only way he'd ever have a chance to win rings. Magic was born with it. He could've won with a myriad of coaches.

For all the crap Jerry Krause is getting, without his vision, particularly to hire Winters and Jackson, Jordan's career story would look really, really different.

Jordan destroyed weaker players instead of nurturing them. I don't think Divac becomes the player he became if he's drafted to the Chicago Bulls with Jordan on the team. Magic really knew how to empower Divac, whereas Jordan, like he did with Keane Brown, Stacey King, Brad Sellers, and others, would've probably snatched Divac's ever-living soul.


The Bulls in 89 pushed the Pistons to 6 games in the conference finals (same Pistons who otherwise swept the playoffs), behind Jordans 30ppg 5.5rpg 6.5apg. His next best scorer being Hodges at 12ppg, and only 2 players shooting 50% or more (Grant and Charles Davis). Their staring center shot 41%, and both Pippen and Grant were held to under 10ppg (Pippen shooting 40-20-56). I think its safe to assume that they would eventually make it, once Pippen and Grant have matured, regardless of Jacksons presence
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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 8:48 am    Post subject:

Was never fond of Vlade. During that time centers dominated the game. Seeing Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, etc just straight up balling around the league and watching Vlade on our team just doing okay just made me mad. We deseved better. Which we eventually got. THEN this guy comes back to the Lakers AFTER we were spoiled with Shaq. Made me even more angry.
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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 9:31 am    Post subject:

GOODRICH25 wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
Magic Johnson played a huge role in Divac's development.

Michael was a superior scorer and defender compared to Magic, but Magic was the superior leader and had the innate ability to make those around him better.

It's for these reading that I'll always have Magic as the best basketball player I've ever seen. Jordan needed Phil Jackson and Tex Winters to convince him to empower his teammates. Magic did it naturally.

I don't think Jordan ever wins a championship without Phil Jackson's metaphysical coaching style. Jordan needed to be programmed to work within a team concepts -- the only way he'd ever have a chance to win rings. Magic was born with it. He could've won with a myriad of coaches.

For all the crap Jerry Krause is getting, without his vision, particularly to hire Winters and Jackson, Jordan's career story would look really, really different.

Jordan destroyed weaker players instead of nurturing them. I don't think Divac becomes the player he became if he's drafted to the Chicago Bulls with Jordan on the team. Magic really knew how to empower Divac, whereas Jordan, like he did with Keane Brown, Stacey King, Brad Sellers, and others, would've probably snatched Divac's ever-living soul.


The Bulls in 89 pushed the Pistons to 6 games in the conference finals (same Pistons who otherwise swept the playoffs), behind Jordans 30ppg 5.5rpg 6.5apg. His next best scorer being Hodges at 12ppg, and only 2 players shooting 50% or more (Grant and Charles Davis). Their staring center shot 41%, and both Pippen and Grant were held to under 10ppg (Pippen shooting 40-20-56). I think its safe to assume that they would eventually make it, once Pippen and Grant have matured, regardless of Jacksons presence

Maybe you're right, but I don't think they do.

Phil Jackson gave Pippen a COMPLETELY different role. He was being relegated to an off-ball player who couldn't shoot before The Triangle was implemented. It was a huge paradigm shift that can't be understated at all. Krause saw that they weren't going to breakthrough with Jordan having carte blanche to do whatever he wanted. If Jordan had a less visionary GM, Jordan's legacy would've been markedly different. Krause and Phil Jackson played huge roles in the Jordan as GOAT narrative when you consider how innately flawed he was as a team player.
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Yama
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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 2:02 pm    Post subject:

Steve007 wrote:
Krause ran off Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen. He even wanted to trade Scottie Pippen after the 97 Finals. It’s interesting that a gm could be so good and so terrible.


Reminds me of Mitch getting Gasol, Ariza, Brown but then making horrible moves like signing moz and deng
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slavavov
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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 4:25 pm    Post subject:

Steve007 wrote:
Krause ran off Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen. He even wanted to trade Scottie Pippen after the 97 Finals. It’s interesting that a gm could be so good and so terrible.

From everything I've read about him, Krause was petty and insecure. He wanted to run off Jordan and Pippen and build a new championship team to prove that he deserved more credit than anyone else for all those titles.

Remember, he once said, "Players don't win titles. Organizations do."

By contrast, Mitch wanted to keep Kobe and Pau together as long as possible and simply upgrade their supporting cast.
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GOODRICH25
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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 9:05 pm    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
Magic Johnson played a huge role in Divac's development.

Michael was a superior scorer and defender compared to Magic, but Magic was the superior leader and had the innate ability to make those around him better.

It's for these reading that I'll always have Magic as the best basketball player I've ever seen. Jordan needed Phil Jackson and Tex Winters to convince him to empower his teammates. Magic did it naturally.

I don't think Jordan ever wins a championship without Phil Jackson's metaphysical coaching style. Jordan needed to be programmed to work within a team concepts -- the only way he'd ever have a chance to win rings. Magic was born with it. He could've won with a myriad of coaches.

For all the crap Jerry Krause is getting, without his vision, particularly to hire Winters and Jackson, Jordan's career story would look really, really different.

Jordan destroyed weaker players instead of nurturing them. I don't think Divac becomes the player he became if he's drafted to the Chicago Bulls with Jordan on the team. Magic really knew how to empower Divac, whereas Jordan, like he did with Keane Brown, Stacey King, Brad Sellers, and others, would've probably snatched Divac's ever-living soul.


The Bulls in 89 pushed the Pistons to 6 games in the conference finals (same Pistons who otherwise swept the playoffs), behind Jordans 30ppg 5.5rpg 6.5apg. His next best scorer being Hodges at 12ppg, and only 2 players shooting 50% or more (Grant and Charles Davis). Their staring center shot 41%, and both Pippen and Grant were held to under 10ppg (Pippen shooting 40-20-56). I think its safe to assume that they would eventually make it, once Pippen and Grant have matured, regardless of Jacksons presence

Maybe you're right, but I don't think they do.

Phil Jackson gave Pippen a COMPLETELY different role. He was being relegated to an off-ball player who couldn't shoot before The Triangle was implemented. It was a huge paradigm shift that can't be understated at all. Krause saw that they weren't going to breakthrough with Jordan having carte blanche to do whatever he wanted. If Jordan had a less visionary GM, Jordan's legacy would've been markedly different. Krause and Phil Jackson played huge roles in the Jordan as GOAT narrative when you consider how innately flawed he was as a team player.


But then you could argue that Pippen was still too young and not ready to carry that responsibility. I mean, there is really no way to tell, we havent seen prime Jordan and Pippen together outside the triangle for sample size, but based on the trajectory they were on the summer when Phil arrived (already the 2nd best team in the league with a 26 yo Jordan and 23 yos Pippen and Grant), id say my claim is pretty soild. Credit to Phil and Krause as well of course, but there is no way prime Jordan and Pippen dont win in the 90s. How many without those 2? Impossible to say
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 4:37 pm    Post subject:

GOODRICH25 wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
Magic Johnson played a huge role in Divac's development.

Michael was a superior scorer and defender compared to Magic, but Magic was the superior leader and had the innate ability to make those around him better.

It's for these reading that I'll always have Magic as the best basketball player I've ever seen. Jordan needed Phil Jackson and Tex Winters to convince him to empower his teammates. Magic did it naturally.

I don't think Jordan ever wins a championship without Phil Jackson's metaphysical coaching style. Jordan needed to be programmed to work within a team concepts -- the only way he'd ever have a chance to win rings. Magic was born with it. He could've won with a myriad of coaches.

For all the crap Jerry Krause is getting, without his vision, particularly to hire Winters and Jackson, Jordan's career story would look really, really different.

Jordan destroyed weaker players instead of nurturing them. I don't think Divac becomes the player he became if he's drafted to the Chicago Bulls with Jordan on the team. Magic really knew how to empower Divac, whereas Jordan, like he did with Keane Brown, Stacey King, Brad Sellers, and others, would've probably snatched Divac's ever-living soul.


The Bulls in 89 pushed the Pistons to 6 games in the conference finals (same Pistons who otherwise swept the playoffs), behind Jordans 30ppg 5.5rpg 6.5apg. His next best scorer being Hodges at 12ppg, and only 2 players shooting 50% or more (Grant and Charles Davis). Their staring center shot 41%, and both Pippen and Grant were held to under 10ppg (Pippen shooting 40-20-56). I think its safe to assume that they would eventually make it, once Pippen and Grant have matured, regardless of Jacksons presence

Maybe you're right, but I don't think they do.

Phil Jackson gave Pippen a COMPLETELY different role. He was being relegated to an off-ball player who couldn't shoot before The Triangle was implemented. It was a huge paradigm shift that can't be understated at all. Krause saw that they weren't going to breakthrough with Jordan having carte blanche to do whatever he wanted. If Jordan had a less visionary GM, Jordan's legacy would've been markedly different. Krause and Phil Jackson played huge roles in the Jordan as GOAT narrative when you consider how innately flawed he was as a team player.


But then you could argue that Pippen was still too young and not ready to carry that responsibility. I mean, there is really no way to tell, we havent seen prime Jordan and Pippen together outside the triangle for sample size, but based on the trajectory they were on the summer when Phil arrived (already the 2nd best team in the league with a 26 yo Jordan and 23 yos Pippen and Grant), id say my claim is pretty soild. Credit to Phil and Krause as well of course, but there is no way prime Jordan and Pippen dont win in the 90s. How many without those 2? Impossible to say

Jackson completely changed Pippen's role. This fact can't be understated. It doesn't matter how young Pippen was. There is a great, great chance that Douglas Collins NEVER puts Pippen in the point guard role. Roles are everything, and he flourished because Jackson put him In the perfect role whereas Collins had him in a role that was ill-suited for him (off-ball). Jordan surely wasn't going to empower him. I do concede that, of course, nobody really knows, but changing a player's role, making him a pseudo point guard, increasing his engagement played huge roles in Pippen's ascendance.
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 5:04 pm    Post subject:

He was not a Championship caliber player by ant stretch of the imagination.

I'm glad he played well enough to get up Kobe...!

He does seem like a nice guy and I still recall Shaq moving him around in the paint...
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