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LakerSD Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2016 Posts: 23731
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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unleasHell wrote: | Doncic is a great all around player, but his constant whining and complaining (to the refs) bugs me, anyone else? |
Same. He was reaching Harden levels this season. |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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unleasHell wrote: | Doncic is a great all around player, but his constant whining and complaining (to the refs) bugs me, anyone else? |
Not yet. Give it a few years. _________________ Under New Management |
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epic_ Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2020 Posts: 11310
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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unleasHell wrote: | Doncic is a great all around player, but his constant whining and complaining (to the refs) bugs me, anyone else? |
Yep.
But I give him props for not flopping _________________ 💜💛 🏆 👀 🍖 #18!!! |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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AFireInside619 wrote: | I’m a fan of Doncic, but let me play devils advocate. There’s only a 5% chance that he’d have a better career than Kobe (health, accolades, championships, etc). Now many non Lakers fans have Kobe at around 13th all time. A lot of them have him behind Duncan. To me Kobe is clearly top 10, but I just want to highlight how difficult it is to put Luka in the top 10 so damn early. |
Wes Unseld was MVP in his rookie season and he's nowhere near anyone's top 10 list.
Walt Bellamy averaged 32-19 as a rookie.
David Robinson had as good a start to a career as anyone.
Just saying. It's a long, long, long road to the Top 10, and all it takes is one flat tire to derail you. |
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pjiddy Retired Number
Joined: 12 Dec 2005 Posts: 29016
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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activeverb wrote: | AFireInside619 wrote: | I’m a fan of Doncic, but let me play devils advocate. There’s only a 5% chance that he’d have a better career than Kobe (health, accolades, championships, etc). Now many non Lakers fans have Kobe at around 13th all time. A lot of them have him behind Duncan. To me Kobe is clearly top 10, but I just want to highlight how difficult it is to put Luka in the top 10 so damn early. |
Wes Unseld was MVP in his rookie season and he's nowhere near anyone's top 10 list.
Walt Bellamy averaged 32-19 as a rookie.
David Robinson had as good a start to a career as anyone.
Just saying. It's a long, long, long road to the Top 10, and all it takes is one flat tire to derail you. |
Bellamy and Unseld were also 22 their rookie year. David Robinson was 24.
This was Luka's Age 20 season. |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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^
My point is lots of guys have had amazing starts to their careers only to derailed because of injuries and other reasons.
Doncic looks like a great one but to worry about projecting how his career will play out at this point is silly. |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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pjiddy wrote: | activeverb wrote: | AFireInside619 wrote: | I’m a fan of Doncic, but let me play devils advocate. There’s only a 5% chance that he’d have a better career than Kobe (health, accolades, championships, etc). Now many non Lakers fans have Kobe at around 13th all time. A lot of them have him behind Duncan. To me Kobe is clearly top 10, but I just want to highlight how difficult it is to put Luka in the top 10 so damn early. |
Wes Unseld was MVP in his rookie season and he's nowhere near anyone's top 10 list.
Walt Bellamy averaged 32-19 as a rookie.
David Robinson had as good a start to a career as anyone.
Just saying. It's a long, long, long road to the Top 10, and all it takes is one flat tire to derail you. |
Bellamy and Unseld were also 22 their rookie year. David Robinson was 24.
This was Luka's Age 20 season. |
They're also all HOFers, so not so bad? _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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LakerSD wrote: | unleasHell wrote: | Doncic is a great all around player, but his constant whining and complaining (to the refs) bugs me, anyone else? |
Same. He was reaching Harden levels this season. |
Without the lame tricks. That is what makes him way easier to watch than Harden, despite similar roles and in some cases, similar shots. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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LakerSD Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2016 Posts: 23731
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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Mike@LG wrote: | LakerSD wrote: | unleasHell wrote: | Doncic is a great all around player, but his constant whining and complaining (to the refs) bugs me, anyone else? |
Same. He was reaching Harden levels this season. |
Without the lame tricks. That is what makes him way easier to watch than Harden, despite similar roles and in some cases, similar shots. |
Maybe it was just a phase, but I saw a little Flopic early in the season.
I didn’t watch too much Mavs in the 2nd half though. Maybe someone in the Mavs organization told him not to Harden it. |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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Fascinating to me is how people are trying to justify the Suns drafting Ayton over Doncic when it was obviously indefensible then and is even moreso now. Ayton is good and he may even make 2-3 All-Star teams, but Doncic combined with Booker would've been the #1 NBA offense every year for the next ten years.
Marvin Bagley may be the next Bowie, but DeAndre Ayton is not the next Olajuwon. _________________ Under New Management |
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SuperboyReformed Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012 Posts: 4083
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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Mike@LG wrote: | LakerSD wrote: | unleasHell wrote: | Doncic is a great all around player, but his constant whining and complaining (to the refs) bugs me, anyone else? |
Same. He was reaching Harden levels this season. |
Without the lame tricks. That is what makes him way easier to watch than Harden, despite similar roles and in some cases, similar shots. |
I don't see it like that at all! I see Doncic employing just about all the same things Harden is doing....the stepback, the constant wailing and flailing for calls, tons and tons of extra steps on everything.
The only different (to me) that I can tell is that he doesn't get criticized for it. Harden does. Furthermore, Harden was the guinea pig for this remember the backlash two years ago when the stepback nonsense started? NOw that the nba foolishly said its legal...now everyone is doing it but WITHOUT the criticism because Harden already went through all that.
Also Luka is very very young and there is a lot of hope for him, so he is not a "bad" guy yet in any sense. But it's just perception. I think he is doing nearly all the same things as Harden.
For the last two years, as their popularity has been exploding, both Luka and Jokic have been using ALL the gimmicks. Anyway, just pointing it out now as my personal prediction is that if Luka keeps this up, yes he will be extremely popular and is probably on his way to winning MVPs....but the hate will increase a lot because he is doing this a LOT. that last great game he had, man he was taking like 4 steps just to pass the ball and the announcers were talking about how great the pass was. And almost all his threes are stepbacks. |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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I think Harden is especially extra when it comes to it.
Luka has been doing this since Europe, and was getting those calls overseas so it works for him. A lot of the calls he isn't getting, I think he should be. There's a bit of "LeBron treatment" because he's playing as a wing-sized PG, so he's carrying extra strength and height at the position, so not every call is made.
Oh, and before it was Harden, it was Manu Ginobili. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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kikanga Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29150 Location: La La Land
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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LakerSD wrote: | unleasHell wrote: | Doncic is a great all around player, but his constant whining and complaining (to the refs) bugs me, anyone else? |
Same. He was reaching Harden levels this season. |
Agreed. It got to the point that if he shot it in the paint and he didn't score. He complained. Nearly every time. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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SuperboyReformed Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012 Posts: 4083
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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Mike@LG wrote: | I think Harden is especially extra when it comes to it.
Luka has been doing this since Europe, and was getting those calls overseas so it works for him. A lot of the calls he isn't getting, I think he should be. There's a bit of "LeBron treatment" because he's playing as a wing-sized PG, so he's carrying extra strength and height at the position, so not every call is made.
Oh, and before it was Harden, it was Manu Ginobili. |
perhaps....I can't say I saw Luka anywhere other than the NBA.
But what I noticed was initially he was not like this. Once he became super popular, it happened in an instant IIRC...then he started doing it really a lot. SO he may have done it in parts before, but after he became famous he does it all the time. The last game....I watched the highlights to see what they would show from it, and almost all the highlights were stepbacks etc. You don't do that many of them for no reason...you do it basically because its an advantage....an extra step. SO that means the gimmick is now firmly part of his arsenal and probably at least half of his attempts or so....
The other complicated factor in this timeline is again....once the NBA said it was ok to do...which was about two years ago...that's when everyone started doing it. And that coincides with Luka's rise in popularity. So is he doing it because he always did it or because it just coincided with the NBA saying it was ok? I say the latter. but perhaps you know more.
I hate this stepback business. Really ruining a game that has already been largely ruined. Frankly, all the traveling has been out of control for at least 5 years now.
I think a lot of people underestimate precedence in sports and the NBA. Once harden set the precedent....it's over now. I was livid at the way people (and javie and refs) were defending that stepback at the time because I knew if they said it was fine, everyone would start doing it. All these stats the stars are getting now are so inflated because of all these ridiculous officiating things. And i don't blame the players, harden , lebron...I'd do the same. But for the sport, it is not good at all. And even more frustrating for me is the debates and arguments about how good someone is vs someone in the past when people don't factor these things in. |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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Like I said, before it was Harden, it was Manu Ginobili. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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JamaalWilkes Star Player
Joined: 25 Oct 2006 Posts: 1175
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Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:09 am Post subject: |
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activeverb wrote: | ^
My point is lots of guys have had amazing starts to their careers only to derailed because of injuries and other reasons.
Doncic looks like a great one but to worry about projecting how his career will play out at this point is silly. |
Unless he gets badly injured, Doncic will be an All-time great, definitely Top 50, possibly Top 20. There's never been a 21 year old that had his shot, court vision and all around skill set. At 21, he's a more dynamic, modern Larry Bird meets Magic combo. |
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defense Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jan 2010 Posts: 39322
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Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:46 am Post subject: |
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I want to like Luka, but the flopping makes me hate him. He is very skilled however. He plays that methodical old man game. |
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Ziggy Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 12712
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Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:38 am Post subject: |
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Mike@LG wrote: | Like I said, before it was Harden, it was Manu Ginobili. |
I remember people debating whether Manu's euro step was a travel. Many rules in the NBA have a blurred line rather than a clear difference between allowable vs. infraction. Travelling has been one of those rules, especially since NBA players started getting fancy with crossovers in the late 80's early 90's. And the blurred area has gotten larger over the years with stepbacks, stepthroughs, eurosteps etc. |
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jonnybravo Retired Number
Joined: 21 Sep 2007 Posts: 30619
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Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:53 am Post subject: |
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LakerSD wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | LakerSD wrote: | unleasHell wrote: | Doncic is a great all around player, but his constant whining and complaining (to the refs) bugs me, anyone else? |
Same. He was reaching Harden levels this season. |
Without the lame tricks. That is what makes him way easier to watch than Harden, despite similar roles and in some cases, similar shots. |
Maybe it was just a phase, but I saw a little Flopic early in the season.
I didn’t watch too much Mavs in the 2nd half though. Maybe someone in the Mavs organization told him not to Harden it. |
Not even close to Harden's foul hunting. Most guys that flop do it to embellish contact. Harden's sole purpose on the majority of his drive is to fish for a foul. There was an article a few years back from I believe 538. The dude had by far, the lowest and-1 rate out of a list of notable players. The guy is simply not even trying to put the ball in the hoop on so many of his drives. _________________ KOBE |
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defense Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jan 2010 Posts: 39322
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Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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Ziggy wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | Like I said, before it was Harden, it was Manu Ginobili. |
I remember people debating whether Manu's euro step was a travel. Many rules in the NBA have a blurred line rather than a clear difference between allowable vs. infraction. Travelling has been one of those rules, especially since NBA players started getting fancy with crossovers in the late 80's early 90's. And the blurred area has gotten larger over the years with stepbacks, stepthroughs, eurosteps etc. |
I was watching the last game thinking to myself Lebron travels like 30 times a game and the refs never call it. I guess that is just the way they want to officiate the game. Its why I never compare these current players to past players. They get away with so much. |
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AFireInside619 Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Dec 2015 Posts: 11447
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Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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defense wrote: | Ziggy wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | Like I said, before it was Harden, it was Manu Ginobili. |
I remember people debating whether Manu's euro step was a travel. Many rules in the NBA have a blurred line rather than a clear difference between allowable vs. infraction. Travelling has been one of those rules, especially since NBA players started getting fancy with crossovers in the late 80's early 90's. And the blurred area has gotten larger over the years with stepbacks, stepthroughs, eurosteps etc. |
I was watching the last game thinking to myself Lebron travels like 30 times a game and the refs never call it. I guess that is just the way they want to officiate the game. Its why I never compare these current players to past players. They get away with so much. |
I know it was probably just a gather step, but Caruso look like he traveled on the first alley oop to Bron. Even if he did travel, no one would call that when “witnessing” a Lebron dunk. Hehe. _________________ “You have to dance beautifully in the box that you are comfortable dancing in.” - Kobe Bryant |
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defense Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jan 2010 Posts: 39322
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Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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AFireInside619 wrote: | defense wrote: | Ziggy wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | Like I said, before it was Harden, it was Manu Ginobili. |
I remember people debating whether Manu's euro step was a travel. Many rules in the NBA have a blurred line rather than a clear difference between allowable vs. infraction. Travelling has been one of those rules, especially since NBA players started getting fancy with crossovers in the late 80's early 90's. And the blurred area has gotten larger over the years with stepbacks, stepthroughs, eurosteps etc. |
I was watching the last game thinking to myself Lebron travels like 30 times a game and the refs never call it. I guess that is just the way they want to officiate the game. Its why I never compare these current players to past players. They get away with so much. |
I know it was probably just a gather step, but Caruso look like he traveled on the first alley oop to Bron. Even if he did travel, no one would call that when “witnessing” a Lebron dunk. Hehe. |
Yea that's just the way it is. Rules are different. Don't get me started on throwing of arms or body into people to get fouls. That and defenders who move their feet, stay in front of the opponent, while not reaching and still get called for the foul because the offensive playing flails like he was hit by an anvil.
But anyway... Luka is a flopper |
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Ziggy Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 12712
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Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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defense wrote: | AFireInside619 wrote: | defense wrote: | Ziggy wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | Like I said, before it was Harden, it was Manu Ginobili. |
I remember people debating whether Manu's euro step was a travel. Many rules in the NBA have a blurred line rather than a clear difference between allowable vs. infraction. Travelling has been one of those rules, especially since NBA players started getting fancy with crossovers in the late 80's early 90's. And the blurred area has gotten larger over the years with stepbacks, stepthroughs, eurosteps etc. |
I was watching the last game thinking to myself Lebron travels like 30 times a game and the refs never call it. I guess that is just the way they want to officiate the game. Its why I never compare these current players to past players. They get away with so much. |
I know it was probably just a gather step, but Caruso look like he traveled on the first alley oop to Bron. Even if he did travel, no one would call that when “witnessing” a Lebron dunk. Hehe. |
Yea that's just the way it is. Rules are different. Don't get me started on throwing of arms or body into people to get fouls. That and defenders who move their feet, stay in front of the opponent, while not reaching and still get called for the foul because the offensive playing flails like he was hit by an anvil.
But anyway... Luka is a flopper |
It's why the ballhandlers in the old days look ridiculous by today's standards. They called the rule more literally back then. Watch a highlight of Bob Cousy and you'll see his hand was always on top of the ball when dribbling. Just try doing that in your backyard. It's so much harder.
But anyway, this is the direction the league decided to go and I think it probably draws more casual fans who just want to see a defender fall on his tuckus. |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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jonnybravo wrote: | LakerSD wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | LakerSD wrote: | unleasHell wrote: | Doncic is a great all around player, but his constant whining and complaining (to the refs) bugs me, anyone else? |
Same. He was reaching Harden levels this season. |
Without the lame tricks. That is what makes him way easier to watch than Harden, despite similar roles and in some cases, similar shots. |
Maybe it was just a phase, but I saw a little Flopic early in the season.
I didn’t watch too much Mavs in the 2nd half though. Maybe someone in the Mavs organization told him not to Harden it. |
Not even close to Harden's foul hunting. Most guys that flop do it to embellish contact. Harden's sole purpose on the majority of his drive is to fish for a foul. There was an article a few years back from I believe 538. The dude had by far, the lowest and-1 rate out of a list of notable players. The guy is simply not even trying to put the ball in the hoop on so many of his drives. |
Agreed. Harden draws some of the softest foul calls in the league.
Can't say the same for Doncic. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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