Where do LeBron and AD respectively rank among the league’s best players?
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Who is the best player in the league right now?
LeBron
63%
 63%  [ 40 ]
Anthony Davis
3%
 3%  [ 2 ]
Giannis
7%
 7%  [ 5 ]
Harden
3%
 3%  [ 2 ]
Kawhi
14%
 14%  [ 9 ]
Doncic
1%
 1%  [ 1 ]
Lilliard
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Durant
4%
 4%  [ 3 ]
Curry
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Other
1%
 1%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 63

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:44 am    Post subject:

Harden is a great player who does visibly check out of important stretches of important games (and sometimes full games entirely). I think part of it is the system they run which is entirely dependent on him creating everything AND scoring in high volume on ISO’s. No wonder he always looks gassed around playoff time. A good defensive team can usually take apart Houston’s approach, and their coach doesn’t have a backup plan if their style isn’t working. Paul helped shoulder the load and that’s when they were their most successful. Who can help him on this team? It’s not Westbrook. The rest of the squad can only spot up.

Fairly or unfairly, the greats are measured by their performances in playoff games. Particularly tight ones. Harden’s got a lot of clunkers in that department. He’s not going to win anything in Houston but I could see him win it all with the right team if he’s able to maneuver himself out of there.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:55 am    Post subject:

nickuku wrote:
JPaulK0n wrote:
Right now, I have Bron at 1, with Kawhi at 2, and AD at 3 as the best players in the league. Reminds me a bit of Kobe in 01 & 02 that critics would use Shaq as an indictment that Kobe can't be a top 5 player in the league because anyone can win a 3-peat if they played with Shaq, same way I feel with how people view AD at the moment. Outside of Bron & Kawhi, nobody in the league effects the game on both ends of the floor more than AD, who can give you 30 a game, while giving you Defensive Player Of The Year defense when it counts the most in the playoffs. I feel like Curry has peaked imo and already in his 30's, so will take AD since he is just entering his prime. Durant I can't put him on any lists coming off a Torn Achilles and feel like he can still be an elite player, but no longer MVP Durant anymore. Luka is already very special, especially with his passing ability, but going to take AD due to huge edge on the defensive end, which I take scoring & defense as the top 2 traits you want in an elite player imo. Kawhi has already shown he can win a title as the best player on the team, is MJ like with you know what he's going to do and he still gets what he wants on offense, along with how scary he is in crunch time and when he flips the switch on defense. The top 3 players in the league I have now is similar to the top 3 I had in 2001 & 2002 being Shaq, Duncan, & Kobe.


The reason why I have AD outside of the top 5 is that he can't carry a team by himself. However I do he's the best second option in the league. Even though I rank someone like Harden higher than AD on the overall list I think AD makes a far superior second option if that makes any sense.

I'm sure AD would be able to "carry" his teams if he was able to play with CP3 or Westbrook, along with really good teams around him with Morey as GM like Harden or like other elite players had as well. I don't know how people can say he's the 2nd option when he averaged more points per game than LeBron in the regular season, he's the Lakers leading scorer this postseason, and averaged 30 & 12 without LeBron with the Pelicans in the postseason before. Bron & AD are 1A & 1B like Shaq & Kobe were.

You can make the case that Bron needs AD more than AD needs Bron just due to how great AD is on the defensive end and that he's going to put up prime Shaq numbers in the playoffs no matter who he is playing with. It's a small ball league now, but nobody effects the game more than a truly dominant big man on both ends of the floor to this day, even in a perimeter orientated league. Harden is a better shooter and better at creating for himself and his teammates as a creator than AD, however AD is still going to get his monster numbers on the offensive end while putting fear into opposing offenses at all times due to his presence. Outside of Bron & Kawhi, what other elite player is capable of doing that? Can say Giannis, but come playoff time he isn't close to being as effective in the half-court like AD has been when it matters most.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:00 am    Post subject:

"Right now," Lebron and then Kawhi.

If I am building for the future, it is different. I take Luka or Giannis.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:52 am    Post subject:

JPaulK0n wrote:
nickuku wrote:
JPaulK0n wrote:
Right now, I have Bron at 1, with Kawhi at 2, and AD at 3 as the best players in the league. Reminds me a bit of Kobe in 01 & 02 that critics would use Shaq as an indictment that Kobe can't be a top 5 player in the league because anyone can win a 3-peat if they played with Shaq, same way I feel with how people view AD at the moment. Outside of Bron & Kawhi, nobody in the league effects the game on both ends of the floor more than AD, who can give you 30 a game, while giving you Defensive Player Of The Year defense when it counts the most in the playoffs. I feel like Curry has peaked imo and already in his 30's, so will take AD since he is just entering his prime. Durant I can't put him on any lists coming off a Torn Achilles and feel like he can still be an elite player, but no longer MVP Durant anymore. Luka is already very special, especially with his passing ability, but going to take AD due to huge edge on the defensive end, which I take scoring & defense as the top 2 traits you want in an elite player imo. Kawhi has already shown he can win a title as the best player on the team, is MJ like with you know what he's going to do and he still gets what he wants on offense, along with how scary he is in crunch time and when he flips the switch on defense. The top 3 players in the league I have now is similar to the top 3 I had in 2001 & 2002 being Shaq, Duncan, & Kobe.


The reason why I have AD outside of the top 5 is that he can't carry a team by himself. However I do he's the best second option in the league. Even though I rank someone like Harden higher than AD on the overall list I think AD makes a far superior second option if that makes any sense.

I'm sure AD would be able to "carry" his teams if he was able to play with CP3 or Westbrook, along with really good teams around him with Morey as GM like Harden or like other elite players had as well. I don't know how people can say he's the 2nd option when he averaged more points per game than LeBron in the regular season, he's the Lakers leading scorer this postseason, and averaged 30 & 12 without LeBron with the Pelicans in the postseason before. Bron & AD are 1A & 1B like Shaq & Kobe were.

You can make the case that Bron needs AD more than AD needs Bron just due to how great AD is on the defensive end and that he's going to put up prime Shaq numbers in the playoffs no matter who he is playing with. It's a small ball league now, but nobody effects the game more than a truly dominant big man on both ends of the floor to this day, even in a perimeter orientated league. Harden is a better shooter and better at creating for himself and his teammates as a creator than AD, however AD is still going to get his monster numbers on the offensive end while putting fear into opposing offenses at all times due to his presence. Outside of Bron & Kawhi, what other elite player is capable of doing that? Can say Giannis, but come playoff time he isn't close to being as effective in the half-court like AD has been when it matters most.


How do you watch the lakers and think AD is more valuable than Bron?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:23 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
strong9 wrote:
tox wrote:
I too strongly dislike Harden but I feel like the choker narrative is kind of cherrypicked. Like today's just a Game 4, what makes it any more "important" than Game 3 where he had a good game? But people will remember today as another instance of him "choking" in a big game.

Not saying he is or isn't the best player in the league. Just suspicious of some of the arguments here


There is actually a lengthy article about Harden in clutch playoff situations from Zach Lowe on ESPN. Some of the numbers are startling and truly suggestive of him shying away from the moment. I think he is a great player. He just may be another Peyton Manning, Karl Malone or Dominique. No shame in that.

Quote:
Most stars see their numbers fall off at the end of tight playoff games. It's hard to shoot a high percentage against elite defenses gearing everything against you. A lot of Harden's highest-leverage games came against a dynastic Warriors team. Tough sledding for anyone.

But the falloff for Harden is larger than for most stars. Sometimes it is cataclysmic: 2-of-11 with six turnovers in a season-ending, 39-point Game 6 loss in 2017 to a Spurs team missing both Leonard and Tony Parker -- a performance so bad, so passive, it sparked rumors (never substantiated, to my knowledge) Harden might have played through a concussion. That wasn't even Harden's first 2-of-11 elimination game; he put up that same shooting line, with 12 (!) turnovers, in Game 5 of the 2015 conference finals against Golden State. Houston's epic Game 6 comeback against the Clippers in the previous round came with Harden on the bench. He was solid in Game 7 of that LA series: 31 points on 7-of-20 shooting, with 15 free throws.


https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/zachlowe29800043/nba-playoffs-lakers-rockets-james-harden-massive-chance-rewrite-reputation


Super Bowl winning Peyton Manning? Lol.


Look at his numbers in those Super Bowls. When he has been asked to step up he has failed in the playoffs more often than not. When he has won the Super Bowl it has been due to the team around him. He hasn’t carried a single team to a title.

Against the Bears in his first win he was 25–of–38 with 247 yards and one touchdown and an interception. With the Broncos he was 13–of–23 for 141 yards with no touchdowns and one interception and a QB rating of 56.

In his losses 31–of–45 for 333 yards with one touchdown and one interception and 34–of–49 for 280 yards with one touchdown and two interceptions. In the last 18 Super Bowls before this last one all of his performances have been statistically in the bottom third of all quarterbacks in those Super Bowls, including the worst ever (in a win no less).

Win or lose hardly Peyton-esque numbers on the big stage for a QB generally considered top 2-3 of all time in the regular season.

Remember Trent Dilfer won a super bowl too. But don’t let facts get in the way...
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:20 pm    Post subject:

Every player that has won a team title has done so because of the team around them.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:25 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Every player that has won a team title has done so because of the team around them.


Every team that has won a team title has done so because they had won more playoff series games than the opposing team
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:27 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Every player that has won a team title has done so because of the team around them.


I can agree to certain point that championship is won by a team coming together but some players just elevate their team more than others and that’s what separation of greatness comes to play especially comes playoff. It’s like Hakeem and The Admiral argument. I mean supporting cast is just as important but there are players that seems to take their game to another gear when it matters. There are times when your team needed a basket in a dire situation and you gonna have to come through to get that bucket or create it at least. And that’s what makes the difference.


Last edited by CRoost on Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:28 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Every player that has won a team title has done so because of the team around them.


So you do agree. I know you like pithy responses but more often than not, they fall short. My point was how Peyton shrinks from the moment and your response was he has won Super Bowls. With this comment, you just proved that being part of a winning team is irrelevant to the point I was making. If you have a real argument to make, please make it. Being contrarian just for the sake of it doesn’t add anything to the discourse.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:31 pm    Post subject:

CRoost wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Every player that has won a team title has done so because of the team around them.


I can agree to certain point that championship is won by a team coming together but some players just elevate their team more than others and that’s what separation of greatness comes to play especially comes playoff. It’s like Hakeem and The Admiral argument. I mean supporting cast is just as important but there are players that seems to take their game to another gear when it matters.


Ok then, Let’s play, worse supporting squad to win a chip Than Dirk’s
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:35 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
CRoost wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Every player that has won a team title has done so because of the team around them.


I can agree to certain point that championship is won by a team coming together but some players just elevate their team more than others and that’s what separation of greatness comes to play especially comes playoff. It’s like Hakeem and The Admiral argument. I mean supporting cast is just as important but there are players that seems to take their game to another gear when it matters.


Ok then, Let’s play, worse supporting squad to win a chip Than Dirk’s


Hakeem 1st ring.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:38 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
CRoost wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Every player that has won a team title has done so because of the team around them.


I can agree to certain point that championship is won by a team coming together but some players just elevate their team more than others and that’s what separation of greatness comes to play especially comes playoff. It’s like Hakeem and The Admiral argument. I mean supporting cast is just as important but there are players that seems to take their game to another gear when it matters.


Ok then, Let’s play, worse supporting squad to win a chip Than Dirk’s


Shaw and Kobe, once Glen Rice was off the team. Nobody else seemed to be able to score, praying somebody could score 10 points besides our stars. It’s like the whole other 10 guys on the roster were offensively DG out there!
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:44 pm    Post subject:

h2omike wrote:
governator wrote:
CRoost wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Every player that has won a team title has done so because of the team around them.


I can agree to certain point that championship is won by a team coming together but some players just elevate their team more than others and that’s what separation of greatness comes to play especially comes playoff. It’s like Hakeem and The Admiral argument. I mean supporting cast is just as important but there are players that seems to take their game to another gear when it matters.


Ok then, Let’s play, worse supporting squad to win a chip Than Dirk’s


Shaw and Kobe, once Glen Rice was off the team. Nobody else seemed to be able to score, praying somebody could score 10 points besides our stars. It’s like the whole other 10 guys on the roster were offensively DG out there!


Agree. I think Dirk, Hakeem’s 1st Chip (though they played an offensively incompetent team), and then Shakobe in that order. AI gets honorable mention. He didn’t win but that team had very little other than him on the offensive side of the court.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:16 pm    Post subject:

nickuku wrote:
JPaulK0n wrote:
nickuku wrote:
JPaulK0n wrote:
Right now, I have Bron at 1, with Kawhi at 2, and AD at 3 as the best players in the league. Reminds me a bit of Kobe in 01 & 02 that critics would use Shaq as an indictment that Kobe can't be a top 5 player in the league because anyone can win a 3-peat if they played with Shaq, same way I feel with how people view AD at the moment. Outside of Bron & Kawhi, nobody in the league effects the game on both ends of the floor more than AD, who can give you 30 a game, while giving you Defensive Player Of The Year defense when it counts the most in the playoffs. I feel like Curry has peaked imo and already in his 30's, so will take AD since he is just entering his prime. Durant I can't put him on any lists coming off a Torn Achilles and feel like he can still be an elite player, but no longer MVP Durant anymore. Luka is already very special, especially with his passing ability, but going to take AD due to huge edge on the defensive end, which I take scoring & defense as the top 2 traits you want in an elite player imo. Kawhi has already shown he can win a title as the best player on the team, is MJ like with you know what he's going to do and he still gets what he wants on offense, along with how scary he is in crunch time and when he flips the switch on defense. The top 3 players in the league I have now is similar to the top 3 I had in 2001 & 2002 being Shaq, Duncan, & Kobe.


The reason why I have AD outside of the top 5 is that he can't carry a team by himself. However I do he's the best second option in the league. Even though I rank someone like Harden higher than AD on the overall list I think AD makes a far superior second option if that makes any sense.

I'm sure AD would be able to "carry" his teams if he was able to play with CP3 or Westbrook, along with really good teams around him with Morey as GM like Harden or like other elite players had as well. I don't know how people can say he's the 2nd option when he averaged more points per game than LeBron in the regular season, he's the Lakers leading scorer this postseason, and averaged 30 & 12 without LeBron with the Pelicans in the postseason before. Bron & AD are 1A & 1B like Shaq & Kobe were.

You can make the case that Bron needs AD more than AD needs Bron just due to how great AD is on the defensive end and that he's going to put up prime Shaq numbers in the playoffs no matter who he is playing with. It's a small ball league now, but nobody effects the game more than a truly dominant big man on both ends of the floor to this day, even in a perimeter orientated league. Harden is a better shooter and better at creating for himself and his teammates as a creator than AD, however AD is still going to get his monster numbers on the offensive end while putting fear into opposing offenses at all times due to his presence. Outside of Bron & Kawhi, what other elite player is capable of doing that? Can say Giannis, but come playoff time he isn't close to being as effective in the half-court like AD has been when it matters most.


How do you watch the lakers and think AD is more valuable than Bron?

I said you can make that case, not that he is more valuable than Bron. A lot of that case is due to AD just being younger and just now in his prime, while Bron who I say is still the best player in the league, is 35 years old. Overall, they both need one another at the end of the day and are equally valuable as the 1A & 1B like Shaq & Kobe were, even though people want to always to make it a Batman & Robin situation with elite duos.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:20 am    Post subject:

Quote:
LeBron James and Anthony Davis are the first pair of teammates to each average at least 25 points and 10 rebounds per game in a playoff series since 1961, when Bob Pettit and Cliff Hagan did it for the St. Louis Hawks in the 1961 NBA Finals. h/t

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:55 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
CRoost wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Every player that has won a team title has done so because of the team around them.


I can agree to certain point that championship is won by a team coming together but some players just elevate their team more than others and that’s what separation of greatness comes to play especially comes playoff. It’s like Hakeem and The Admiral argument. I mean supporting cast is just as important but there are players that seems to take their game to another gear when it matters.


Ok then, Let’s play, worse supporting squad to win a chip Than Dirk’s



To me, the worst supporting cast for a ring team after the top player is either the 2011 Mavericks, the 1977 Trailblazers, or the 1994 Houston Rockets. I'd go with Bill Walton and the Trailblazers.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:56 am    Post subject:

h2omike wrote:
governator wrote:
CRoost wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Every player that has won a team title has done so because of the team around them.


I can agree to certain point that championship is won by a team coming together but some players just elevate their team more than others and that’s what separation of greatness comes to play especially comes playoff. It’s like Hakeem and The Admiral argument. I mean supporting cast is just as important but there are players that seems to take their game to another gear when it matters.


Ok then, Let’s play, worse supporting squad to win a chip Than Dirk’s


Shaw and Kobe, once Glen Rice was off the team. Nobody else seemed to be able to score, praying somebody could score 10 points besides our stars. It’s like the whole other 10 guys on the roster were offensively DG out there!


It's not exactly apples to apples if you are going to treat Shaq and Kobe as if they were one player. Because of that I toss them out of the running, because the instance you put one of them in the supporting cast, it's a great supporting cast.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:01 pm    Post subject:

*Rips crown off of Kawhi’s head.*
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:03 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Kawhi then Harden.


LMAOOOOOOO
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:10 pm    Post subject:

KBandKB wrote:
Tier 1 Stars (in order)

Giannis
Kawhi
LeBron
Luka
AD
KD
Harden
Steph
Dame
Jokic

Tier 2 stars (in order)

Butler
Tatum
Kyrie
Donovan
PG13
Booker
Klay
Westbrook
Embiid
KAT


Do you still have lebron at number 3 behind those burnouts KW and GIannis?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:11 pm    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
*Rips crown off of Kawhi’s head.*


I believe he had it on his keychain
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:50 pm    Post subject:

I hear Nugget Fans prefer the Kawhi/George Combo....
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:35 pm    Post subject:

LeBron
Davis
Jokic
Butler
Tatum
Murray
Caruso

See what i did there
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