Did Jerry West Screw The Clippers?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:49 pm    Post subject:

BadGuy wrote:
activeverb wrote:
GTL wrote:
4th Quarter Playoffs -

Kawhi : 486 points (Career) 124 games
Kobe : 524 points (Playoffs 08-10) 67 games




Half of Kawhi's playoff games were in his first three years, where he was fourth in the stack behind Duncan, Parker and Manu. He was only averaging about 15 ppg. in the playoffs during those years.

And when he won his first Finals MVP, the Spurs were blowing the Heat out by 15-21 points so I don't know that he really needed to score or play that much in the 4th.

This particular stat, in a vacuum, really doesn't tell me anything.


Tells you how much that Finals MVP is worth that Kawhi got on the Spurs. It's worth about as much as Andre Iguodala's FMVP.


I get that some fans think scoring is the only metric that matters. But I consider both Kawhi and Andre worthy Finals MVP winners.

Kawhi led the Spurs in scoring at 17.8 ppg with shooting a blistering 61% from the field and 58% from 3-point line, while playing great defense.

Andre, for his part, averaged 16 ppg. on 52% and 40% shooting while doing a strong job on Lebron. He really won the award primarily for holding Lebron to 39% from the field and 31% from the 3-point line.

But if you're the type who thinks that defense doesn't matter I can understand why you wouldn't like the choices.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:51 pm    Post subject:

lakerdynasty5.0 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
GTL wrote:
4th Quarter Playoffs -

Kawhi : 486 points (Career) 124 games
Kobe : 524 points (Playoffs 08-10) 67 games


That Kobe was better than Lebron at that time especially in playoff time and was rightly recognized as the best player in the world other than hardcore Lebron stans like Nick Wright. Had these two matched up in the Finals during any of these years - hell even include 2011, I would have stuck Kobe on Lebron and tell Kobe to get inside Bron's head, challenge him and give him the space to shoot. Always got the sense that Bron was really susceptible to Kobe's head games at this time - I think later they had even had a story about the head games Kobe did to Bron during the Olympics (2008) and I realized my gut was right the whole time in terms of what Kobe would do to Bron



Um, the post you are responding to had nothing to do with Lebron.


I'm curious, anyone knows Lebron's 4th quarter playoff stats?


I am sure you could look it up on basketball-reference.com if you care.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:55 pm    Post subject:

1995Lakers wrote:
lakerdynasty5.0 wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
Jerry West>>>>>>Jeanie Buss

1. A.C. Green
2. Vlade Divac
3. Elden Campbell
4. Ceballos for Horry
5. Nick Van Exel
6. The trade dump of Lynch and Peeler to free up cap space and letting Vancouver be the suckers
7. Trade with Charlotte for Kobe
8. Derek Fisher
9. Blocking the Tarpley/Aguirre for Worthy trade
10. Nixon for Scott

these were all West


and by those same metrics, Sharman >>>>>>> West (as another poster eloquently said earlier: with a "Rolls Royce" thrown in for good measure)


You wont get any complaints out of me about Sharman. That old Leprechaun became a real Laker (like Rick Fox) and gelled a supremely talented team into the best versions of themselves as a coach with Wilt and West and set up the Showtime dynasty. The drafting of Nixon where he was selected, putting together the Kareem trade, obtaining the draft pick for Worthy - swapping a lowly first round pick in the current year to bet on a team he thought would suck and give a higher draft pick later, and of course letting aging Goodrich walk that ended up being Magic Johnson (although its hard to credit this one - more like a fluky good luck than real foresight)



Agreed about Sharman.

Also the move Jerry West made that was then nixxed by our coach at the time Del Harris.. was that Jerry West was about to make the move that would have gotten us Tracy McGrady, for Eddie Jones. Also he would have been paired with the Shaq and Kobe Lakers.

Now imagine what kind of steal that would have been, and what kind of dynasty they'd have had. But alas, along with Del Harris thinking Kobe's ceiling was as a 6th man, he also refused Tracy McGrady because he thought Eddie Jones was the future of the team. Oh well..
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:58 pm    Post subject:

Batguano wrote:
hype wrote:
Batguano wrote:
mhan00 wrote:
Batguano wrote:
drae wrote:
Batguano wrote:
and will have them contending for championships for the next half decade.


Lol, sorry the Clippers championship window closes after two years. And they gave up all their picks for that window.

Kawhi has peaked because of his injury, Lou Williams is almost 36 and he was key for them this year, Trez won't be returning and he was key for them this yea, Pat Bev is incredibly important and he's 32 and about to decline. Really hard to be a "dawg" when you're in your mid 30s.

They have one more year and they're done


Sure, buddy. Clippers window is somehow only 1-2 years but Lakers window with a 40 year old LeBron isn't...? Biased much? These overreactions are better suited for twitter or Reddit. You would think someone that's followed the NBA for so long would know never to speak in absolutes or prematurely get ahead of themselves. Funny how you started your post with them having "two more years" and by the end of your post it was down to "just one".

And if they win next year? Makes your take and OP's thread completely moot...


Both KL and PG have opt outs after next season, that’s why people think their window is short. If they have another season like this where they get bounced early and in embarrassing fashion, it’s a pretty decent bet one or both will be heavily weighing their options elsewhere.


Again, assumptions. Kawhi already has his rings, so he isn't in "LeBron/KD desperation mode" to go ring-chase somewhere else. LA is where he wanted to be. What if Kawhi opts in and PG13 opts out? Then you have Kawhi (still in his prime) and capspace to sign someone else.

Kawhi just put up 28 PPG, 9 TRB, 6 AST, 2 STL on 49% FG and some of ya'll are acting like "he's done".


Too bad those numbers didn't mean much since he got tight and choked along with with teammates allllllll 4th quarter long in game 7

BTW they made a new Clippers subreddit that is currently open since you look a little lost in here


Yes, how DARE I defend the GOAT GM Jerry West, a guy that has brought so much success to our franchise as a player and then as a GM from dumb slander and not fall victim to prisoner of the moment/biased overreactions to the Clippers loss. That definitely makes me a "Clippers fan". I invite you equally to go post on the Lakers subreddit as well since your brand of analysis will fit better there in the echo-chambers devoid of reality.


West is the GOAT of all GM's no doubt about it. He's also been a solid consultant for GSW and now the Clipps. Balmer wants to win so the org is definitely pointing in the right direction.
But that team has chemistry issues and their leaders aren't very good at leading. Sure it seemed the Clippers made a big splash with the signing of Leonard and George. Lakers wanted them too. But the splash turned into backwash.
Those guys are either in the worst shape of their careers or have no heart when games count. When the going got rough, they wilted. Some of the shots they were putting up when things mattered were simply terrible.
Hindsight is 20/20. The Clippers are going to have to change a few things or they will go 51 years without making the finals.

The Clippers covering Lakers banners at Staples and calling LA a Clippers town and dissing the 16 time World Champion LA Lakers was really the wrong approach.

BTW, the only vacuum around LA is the trophy case on the Clippers end at Staples.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:08 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
BadGuy wrote:
activeverb wrote:
GTL wrote:
4th Quarter Playoffs -

Kawhi : 486 points (Career) 124 games
Kobe : 524 points (Playoffs 08-10) 67 games




Half of Kawhi's playoff games were in his first three years, where he was fourth in the stack behind Duncan, Parker and Manu. He was only averaging about 15 ppg. in the playoffs during those years.

And when he won his first Finals MVP, the Spurs were blowing the Heat out by 15-21 points so I don't know that he really needed to score or play that much in the 4th.

This particular stat, in a vacuum, really doesn't tell me anything.


Tells you how much that Finals MVP is worth that Kawhi got on the Spurs. It's worth about as much as Andre Iguodala's FMVP.


I get that some fans think scoring is the only metric that matters. But I consider both Kawhi and Andre worthy Finals MVP winners.

Kawhi led the Spurs in scoring at 17.8 ppg with shooting a blistering 61% from the field and 58% from 3-point line, while playing great defense.

Andre, for his part, averaged 16 ppg. on 52% and 40% shooting while doing a strong job on Lebron. He really won the award primarily for holding Lebron to 39% from the field and 31% from the 3-point line.

But if you're the type who thinks that defense doesn't matter I can understand why you wouldn't like the choices.


Oh, i appreciate defense. The problem is when people equate Finals MVP to being the best player on the court, which Kawhi and Iguodala never were. Do i think they're worthy of FMVP? Sure. Do i think they were the best players on the court at any point? No. They largely got extra credit for defending the actual best player on the court better than other players did.

Edit: Also, Kawhi did not lead the Spurs in scoring in that series. That would be Tony Parker at 18 ppg

Edit 2: Also, Kawhi's defense on LeBron in that series is a myth. LeBron averaged 28 ppg on 57% FG, 52% 3pt, 79% FT, 8 rpg, 4 apg, and 2 spg. If that's great defense, were we expecting LeBron to average 50 ppg while shooting 70% from the field and 70% from 3?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:28 pm    Post subject:

The Clippers screwed the Clippers, and they can look in the mirror and know that.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:32 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
GTL wrote:
4th Quarter Playoffs -

Kawhi : 486 points (Career) 124 games
Kobe : 524 points (Playoffs 08-10) 67 games




Half of Kawhi's playoff games were in his first three years, where he was fourth in the stack behind Duncan, Parker and Manu. He was only averaging about 15 ppg. in the playoffs during those years.

And when he won his first Finals MVP, the Spurs were blowing the Heat out by 15-21 points so I don't know that he really needed to score or play that much in the 4th.

This particular stat, in a vacuum, really doesn't tell me anything.


If I argued against this, I would personally be a hypocrite. Since I spent over a decade arguing why Kobe's first couple seasons shouldn't be a measure of his overall statistical achievements.

But ya, I wasn't aware of that so thanks for clarifying.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:51 pm    Post subject:

Before the season started, we heard it all: they’ve got a billionaire owner, Jerry West as a consultant, they signed #2 and PG13, their coach and assistant coach have won it all, etc. etc. There was so much hype about the Clippers all season long, but in the end it was same ol’ cursed team. Turns out they were the basketball version of the unsinkable Titanic hitting an iceberg.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:59 pm    Post subject:

BadGuy wrote:
activeverb wrote:
BadGuy wrote:
activeverb wrote:
GTL wrote:
4th Quarter Playoffs -

Kawhi : 486 points (Career) 124 games
Kobe : 524 points (Playoffs 08-10) 67 games




Half of Kawhi's playoff games were in his first three years, where he was fourth in the stack behind Duncan, Parker and Manu. He was only averaging about 15 ppg. in the playoffs during those years.

And when he won his first Finals MVP, the Spurs were blowing the Heat out by 15-21 points so I don't know that he really needed to score or play that much in the 4th.

This particular stat, in a vacuum, really doesn't tell me anything.


Tells you how much that Finals MVP is worth that Kawhi got on the Spurs. It's worth about as much as Andre Iguodala's FMVP.


I get that some fans think scoring is the only metric that matters. But I consider both Kawhi and Andre worthy Finals MVP winners.

Kawhi led the Spurs in scoring at 17.8 ppg with shooting a blistering 61% from the field and 58% from 3-point line, while playing great defense.

Andre, for his part, averaged 16 ppg. on 52% and 40% shooting while doing a strong job on Lebron. He really won the award primarily for holding Lebron to 39% from the field and 31% from the 3-point line.

But if you're the type who thinks that defense doesn't matter I can understand why you wouldn't like the choices.


Oh, i appreciate defense. The problem is when people equate Finals MVP to being the best player on the court, which Kawhi and Iguodala never were. Do i think they're worthy of FMVP? Sure. Do i think they were the best players on the court at any point? No. They largely got extra credit for defending the actual best player on the court better than other players did.

Edit: Also, Kawhi did not lead the Spurs in scoring in that series. That would be Tony Parker at 18 ppg

Edit 2: Also, Kawhi's defense on LeBron in that series is a myth. LeBron averaged 28 ppg on 57% FG, 52% 3pt, 79% FT, 8 rpg, 4 apg, and 2 spg. If that's great defense, were we expecting LeBron to average 50 ppg while shooting 70% from the field and 70% from 3?



Most of Lebron's scoring game after the games were decided. In the last three games, he scored 51 of his 81 points (63%) while his team was down 15 points or more.

Anyway, I think both Andre and Kwahi were both good choices. Who would you have given it to?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:21 pm    Post subject:

The Spurs employed the same defense against Lebron as the Raptors did against Giannis. Kawhi was the point of attack defender but Lebron wasn't attacking because the Spurs closed off the paint. The idea that Kawhi's defense stopped Lebron was a myth, the same myth that Kawhi's defense stopped Giannis.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:22 pm    Post subject:

GTL wrote:
activeverb wrote:
GTL wrote:
4th Quarter Playoffs -

Kawhi : 486 points (Career) 124 games
Kobe : 524 points (Playoffs 08-10) 67 games




Half of Kawhi's playoff games were in his first three years, where he was fourth in the stack behind Duncan, Parker and Manu. He was only averaging about 15 ppg. in the playoffs during those years.

And when he won his first Finals MVP, the Spurs were blowing the Heat out by 15-21 points so I don't know that he really needed to score or play that much in the 4th.

This particular stat, in a vacuum, really doesn't tell me anything.


If I argued against this, I would personally be a hypocrite. Since I spent over a decade arguing why Kobe's first couple seasons shouldn't be a measure of his overall statistical achievements.

But ya, I wasn't aware of that so thanks for clarifying.


No worries. I appreciate you being so gracious. Yeah, I find it interesting to drill into this stuff, because often the story isn't on the surface.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:40 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
BadGuy wrote:
activeverb wrote:
BadGuy wrote:
activeverb wrote:
GTL wrote:
4th Quarter Playoffs -

Kawhi : 486 points (Career) 124 games
Kobe : 524 points (Playoffs 08-10) 67 games




Half of Kawhi's playoff games were in his first three years, where he was fourth in the stack behind Duncan, Parker and Manu. He was only averaging about 15 ppg. in the playoffs during those years.

And when he won his first Finals MVP, the Spurs were blowing the Heat out by 15-21 points so I don't know that he really needed to score or play that much in the 4th.

This particular stat, in a vacuum, really doesn't tell me anything.


Tells you how much that Finals MVP is worth that Kawhi got on the Spurs. It's worth about as much as Andre Iguodala's FMVP.


I get that some fans think scoring is the only metric that matters. But I consider both Kawhi and Andre worthy Finals MVP winners.

Kawhi led the Spurs in scoring at 17.8 ppg with shooting a blistering 61% from the field and 58% from 3-point line, while playing great defense.

Andre, for his part, averaged 16 ppg. on 52% and 40% shooting while doing a strong job on Lebron. He really won the award primarily for holding Lebron to 39% from the field and 31% from the 3-point line.

But if you're the type who thinks that defense doesn't matter I can understand why you wouldn't like the choices.


Oh, i appreciate defense. The problem is when people equate Finals MVP to being the best player on the court, which Kawhi and Iguodala never were. Do i think they're worthy of FMVP? Sure. Do i think they were the best players on the court at any point? No. They largely got extra credit for defending the actual best player on the court better than other players did.

Edit: Also, Kawhi did not lead the Spurs in scoring in that series. That would be Tony Parker at 18 ppg

Edit 2: Also, Kawhi's defense on LeBron in that series is a myth. LeBron averaged 28 ppg on 57% FG, 52% 3pt, 79% FT, 8 rpg, 4 apg, and 2 spg. If that's great defense, were we expecting LeBron to average 50 ppg while shooting 70% from the field and 70% from 3?



Most of Lebron's scoring game after the games were decided. In the last three games, he scored 51 of his 81 points (63%) while his team was down 15 points or more.

Anyway, I think both Andre and Kwahi were both good choices. Who would you have given it to?


I really don't think it matters when the scoring came, and i already mentioned i don't have a problem with them being selected. All i am saying is that FMVP does not equate to best player on the court since people love to mention Kawhi as a two-time FMVP as if he carried the Spurs against the Heat.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:22 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
lakerdynasty5.0 wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
Jerry West>>>>>>Jeanie Buss

1. A.C. Green
2. Vlade Divac
3. Elden Campbell
4. Ceballos for Horry
5. Nick Van Exel
6. The trade dump of Lynch and Peeler to free up cap space and letting Vancouver be the suckers
7. Trade with Charlotte for Kobe
8. Derek Fisher
9. Blocking the Tarpley/Aguirre for Worthy trade
10. Nixon for Scott

these were all West


and by those same metrics, Sharman >>>>>>> West (as another poster eloquently said earlier: with a "Rolls Royce" thrown in for good measure)


You wont get any complaints out of me about Sharman. That old Leprechaun became a real Laker (like Rick Fox) and gelled a supremely talented team into the best versions of themselves as a coach with Wilt and West and set up the Showtime dynasty. The drafting of Nixon where he was selected, putting together the Kareem trade, obtaining the draft pick for Worthy - swapping a lowly first round pick in the current year to bet on a team he thought would suck and give a higher draft pick later, and of course letting aging Goodrich walk that ended up being Magic Johnson (although its hard to credit this one - more like a fluky good luck than real foresight)



Agreed about Sharman.

Also the move Jerry West made that was then nixxed by our coach at the time Del Harris.. was that Jerry West was about to make the move that would have gotten us Tracy McGrady, for Eddie Jones. Also he would have been paired with the Shaq and Kobe Lakers.

Now imagine what kind of steal that would have been, and what kind of dynasty they'd have had. But alas, along with Del Harris thinking Kobe's ceiling was as a 6th man, he also refused Tracy McGrady because he thought Eddie Jones was the future of the team. Oh well..


Frankly Im not going to (bleep) on Del for Kobe or McGrady. If I was in Del's shoes, I do not give him more minutes over Jones or Ceballos/Horry his rookie year because Del correctly knew Kobe was not ready and those other players were either better than Kobe at the time (Jones) or fit better with his other teammates (Horry). A hot dogging playmaker brilliant but prone to narcissism and making the stupidest turnovers that would make you want to pull your hair out - that was the young Kobe Bryant. Del also correctly said Kobe's ceiling was hall of fame player and lets be real - he had Nick Van Exel one of the most highly respected clutch players in his team playing well against Utah in that memorable game 5 and he gave the clutch shots to Kobe instead of Nick. That is trust right there - stupid but shows he had a very high opinion of Kobe. As for T-Mac, I dont blame Del and more importantly Buss not wanting to give up a young all star like Eddie for a kid. But I think with Buss's support, West would have pulled that trigger. McGrady at point guard and Kobe would play the traditional shooting guard role which he did his first 2-3 years in the league would have been death for the league. That team realistically 4 peats from 2000-2003 with the end still coming at the same exact time - 2004 Detroit. I dont think having even a prime T-Mac prevents that loss.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:47 am    Post subject:

1995Lakers wrote:
MJST wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
lakerdynasty5.0 wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
Jerry West>>>>>>Jeanie Buss

1. A.C. Green
2. Vlade Divac
3. Elden Campbell
4. Ceballos for Horry
5. Nick Van Exel
6. The trade dump of Lynch and Peeler to free up cap space and letting Vancouver be the suckers
7. Trade with Charlotte for Kobe
8. Derek Fisher
9. Blocking the Tarpley/Aguirre for Worthy trade
10. Nixon for Scott

these were all West


and by those same metrics, Sharman >>>>>>> West (as another poster eloquently said earlier: with a "Rolls Royce" thrown in for good measure)


You wont get any complaints out of me about Sharman. That old Leprechaun became a real Laker (like Rick Fox) and gelled a supremely talented team into the best versions of themselves as a coach with Wilt and West and set up the Showtime dynasty. The drafting of Nixon where he was selected, putting together the Kareem trade, obtaining the draft pick for Worthy - swapping a lowly first round pick in the current year to bet on a team he thought would suck and give a higher draft pick later, and of course letting aging Goodrich walk that ended up being Magic Johnson (although its hard to credit this one - more like a fluky good luck than real foresight)



Agreed about Sharman.

Also the move Jerry West made that was then nixxed by our coach at the time Del Harris.. was that Jerry West was about to make the move that would have gotten us Tracy McGrady, for Eddie Jones. Also he would have been paired with the Shaq and Kobe Lakers.

Now imagine what kind of steal that would have been, and what kind of dynasty they'd have had. But alas, along with Del Harris thinking Kobe's ceiling was as a 6th man, he also refused Tracy McGrady because he thought Eddie Jones was the future of the team. Oh well..


Frankly Im not going to (bleep) on Del for Kobe or McGrady. If I was in Del's shoes, I do not give him more minutes over Jones or Ceballos/Horry his rookie year because Del correctly knew Kobe was not ready and those other players were either better than Kobe at the time (Jones) or fit better with his other teammates (Horry). A hot dogging playmaker brilliant but prone to narcissism and making the stupidest turnovers that would make you want to pull your hair out - that was the young Kobe Bryant. Del also correctly said Kobe's ceiling was hall of fame player and lets be real - he had Nick Van Exel one of the most highly respected clutch players in his team playing well against Utah in that memorable game 5 and he gave the clutch shots to Kobe instead of Nick. That is trust right there - stupid but shows he had a very high opinion of Kobe. As for T-Mac, I dont blame Del and more importantly Buss not wanting to give up a young all star like Eddie for a kid. But I think with Buss's support, West would have pulled that trigger. McGrady at point guard and Kobe would play the traditional shooting guard role which he did his first 2-3 years in the league would have been death for the league. That team realistically 4 peats from 2000-2003 with the end still coming at the same exact time - 2004 Detroit. I dont think having even a prime T-Mac prevents that loss.


Given health (and no ego clashes), Kobe/T-Mac would've been Jordan/Pippen 2.0 except that either guy could play either role depending on the match up. With Shaq in the mix, that team dominates until it collapses under the weight of ego - they probably get 5 and then Shaq's contract ends.

But that is assuming PJax as coach - Del couldn't handle Shaq/NVE. Shaq/Kobe/T-Mac would've required either Phil Jackson or Dr. Phil McGraw.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:07 am    Post subject:

BadGuy wrote:
activeverb wrote:
BadGuy wrote:
activeverb wrote:
BadGuy wrote:
activeverb wrote:
GTL wrote:
4th Quarter Playoffs -

Kawhi : 486 points (Career) 124 games
Kobe : 524 points (Playoffs 08-10) 67 games




Half of Kawhi's playoff games were in his first three years, where he was fourth in the stack behind Duncan, Parker and Manu. He was only averaging about 15 ppg. in the playoffs during those years.

And when he won his first Finals MVP, the Spurs were blowing the Heat out by 15-21 points so I don't know that he really needed to score or play that much in the 4th.

This particular stat, in a vacuum, really doesn't tell me anything.


Tells you how much that Finals MVP is worth that Kawhi got on the Spurs. It's worth about as much as Andre Iguodala's FMVP.


I get that some fans think scoring is the only metric that matters. But I consider both Kawhi and Andre worthy Finals MVP winners.

Kawhi led the Spurs in scoring at 17.8 ppg with shooting a blistering 61% from the field and 58% from 3-point line, while playing great defense.

Andre, for his part, averaged 16 ppg. on 52% and 40% shooting while doing a strong job on Lebron. He really won the award primarily for holding Lebron to 39% from the field and 31% from the 3-point line.

But if you're the type who thinks that defense doesn't matter I can understand why you wouldn't like the choices.


Oh, i appreciate defense. The problem is when people equate Finals MVP to being the best player on the court, which Kawhi and Iguodala never were. Do i think they're worthy of FMVP? Sure. Do i think they were the best players on the court at any point? No. They largely got extra credit for defending the actual best player on the court better than other players did.

Edit: Also, Kawhi did not lead the Spurs in scoring in that series. That would be Tony Parker at 18 ppg

Edit 2: Also, Kawhi's defense on LeBron in that series is a myth. LeBron averaged 28 ppg on 57% FG, 52% 3pt, 79% FT, 8 rpg, 4 apg, and 2 spg. If that's great defense, were we expecting LeBron to average 50 ppg while shooting 70% from the field and 70% from 3?



Most of Lebron's scoring game after the games were decided. In the last three games, he scored 51 of his 81 points (63%) while his team was down 15 points or more.

Anyway, I think both Andre and Kwahi were both good choices. Who would you have given it to?


I really don't think it matters when the scoring came, and i already mentioned i don't have a problem with them being selected. All i am saying is that FMVP does not equate to best player on the court since people love to mention Kawhi as a two-time FMVP as if he carried the Spurs against the Heat.



I thought the Iggy award was 50/50. Could have gone to Steph and I'd be OK with it.

I think Kawhi deserved the SAS one as no other player was playing superb for the Spurs. However, in all honestly, the real MVP of that series was whoever made DWade play like crap.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:43 am    Post subject:

epic_ wrote:
BadGuy wrote:
activeverb wrote:
BadGuy wrote:
activeverb wrote:

I get that some fans think scoring is the only metric that matters. But I consider both Kawhi and Andre worthy Finals MVP winners.

Kawhi led the Spurs in scoring at 17.8 ppg with shooting a blistering 61% from the field and 58% from 3-point line, while playing great defense.

Andre, for his part, averaged 16 ppg. on 52% and 40% shooting while doing a strong job on Lebron. He really won the award primarily for holding Lebron to 39% from the field and 31% from the 3-point line.

But if you're the type who thinks that defense doesn't matter I can understand why you wouldn't like the choices.


Oh, i appreciate defense. The problem is when people equate Finals MVP to being the best player on the court, which Kawhi and Iguodala never were. Do i think they're worthy of FMVP? Sure. Do i think they were the best players on the court at any point? No. They largely got extra credit for defending the actual best player on the court better than other players did.

Edit: Also, Kawhi did not lead the Spurs in scoring in that series. That would be Tony Parker at 18 ppg

Edit 2: Also, Kawhi's defense on LeBron in that series is a myth. LeBron averaged 28 ppg on 57% FG, 52% 3pt, 79% FT, 8 rpg, 4 apg, and 2 spg. If that's great defense, were we expecting LeBron to average 50 ppg while shooting 70% from the field and 70% from 3?



Most of Lebron's scoring game after the games were decided. In the last three games, he scored 51 of his 81 points (63%) while his team was down 15 points or more.

Anyway, I think both Andre and Kwahi were both good choices. Who would you have given it to?


I really don't think it matters when the scoring came, and i already mentioned i don't have a problem with them being selected. All i am saying is that FMVP does not equate to best player on the court since people love to mention Kawhi as a two-time FMVP as if he carried the Spurs against the Heat.



I thought the Iggy award was 50/50. Could have gone to Steph and I'd be OK with it.

I think Kawhi deserved the SAS one as no other player was playing superb for the Spurs. However, in all honestly, the real MVP of that series was whoever made DWade play like crap.


Shortening the quote chain above to avoid hogging the page. The notion that Kawhi was the only player on the Spurs that played at a high-level in that series is a revisionist fairy tale: https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2014-nba-finals-heat-vs-spurs.html Even Danny Green was playing well. This Spurs team was akin to the '04 Pistons: a true team effort. Kawhi emerged in this series because he was largely ignored due to the multiple stars around him such as Parker, Duncan, and Ginobli, and Kawhi was basically a nobody at the time (so the Heat were happy to let him shoot since he was previously known as a defensive specialist).

As you mentioned, the wheels fell off DWade due to age, and Kawhi got most of the credit for his defense on LeBron (although Danny Green was guarding him at times too - prime Danny Green, not our version of DG). Mind you, LeBron was scoring above his regular season efficiency averages, so i am not sure how effective Kawhi's defense really was.


Last edited by BadGuy on Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:44 am    Post subject:

Jerry West is an executive board member for the Clippers. He has tremendous say over the roster construction. Any other excuse for him is cognitive dissonance.

He just said last week on a podcast that he wouldn't trade any of the top 10 players on the Clippers. He may not do the day to day lifting of the FO - but he's absolutely one of the voices in Ballmers ear about his position on trades & acquisitions.

He's a great roster constructor - he's shown that. However, they've made some mistakes - Doc is a mistake. Trading for PG is a mistake. If they don't win next year - it will be probably the most embarrassing era in Clippers history. They will have even larger expectations for this team next year because they won't have the excuse of lack of chemistry.

However - given the number of excuses that have come forward from the Clippers. No one should be confident that this team should be favorites next year. They have been an entitled team that his accomplished nothing for some time now. They deserve all the egg on their face - JW included.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:55 am    Post subject:

epic_ wrote:
BadGuy wrote:
activeverb wrote:
BadGuy wrote:
activeverb wrote:
BadGuy wrote:
activeverb wrote:
GTL wrote:
4th Quarter Playoffs -

Kawhi : 486 points (Career) 124 games
Kobe : 524 points (Playoffs 08-10) 67 games




Half of Kawhi's playoff games were in his first three years, where he was fourth in the stack behind Duncan, Parker and Manu. He was only averaging about 15 ppg. in the playoffs during those years.

And when he won his first Finals MVP, the Spurs were blowing the Heat out by 15-21 points so I don't know that he really needed to score or play that much in the 4th.

This particular stat, in a vacuum, really doesn't tell me anything.


Tells you how much that Finals MVP is worth that Kawhi got on the Spurs. It's worth about as much as Andre Iguodala's FMVP.


I get that some fans think scoring is the only metric that matters. But I consider both Kawhi and Andre worthy Finals MVP winners.

Kawhi led the Spurs in scoring at 17.8 ppg with shooting a blistering 61% from the field and 58% from 3-point line, while playing great defense.

Andre, for his part, averaged 16 ppg. on 52% and 40% shooting while doing a strong job on Lebron. He really won the award primarily for holding Lebron to 39% from the field and 31% from the 3-point line.

But if you're the type who thinks that defense doesn't matter I can understand why you wouldn't like the choices.


Oh, i appreciate defense. The problem is when people equate Finals MVP to being the best player on the court, which Kawhi and Iguodala never were. Do i think they're worthy of FMVP? Sure. Do i think they were the best players on the court at any point? No. They largely got extra credit for defending the actual best player on the court better than other players did.

Edit: Also, Kawhi did not lead the Spurs in scoring in that series. That would be Tony Parker at 18 ppg

Edit 2: Also, Kawhi's defense on LeBron in that series is a myth. LeBron averaged 28 ppg on 57% FG, 52% 3pt, 79% FT, 8 rpg, 4 apg, and 2 spg. If that's great defense, were we expecting LeBron to average 50 ppg while shooting 70% from the field and 70% from 3?



Most of Lebron's scoring game after the games were decided. In the last three games, he scored 51 of his 81 points (63%) while his team was down 15 points or more.

Anyway, I think both Andre and Kwahi were both good choices. Who would you have given it to?


I really don't think it matters when the scoring came, and i already mentioned i don't have a problem with them being selected. All i am saying is that FMVP does not equate to best player on the court since people love to mention Kawhi as a two-time FMVP as if he carried the Spurs against the Heat.



I thought the Iggy award was 50/50. Could have gone to Steph and I'd be OK with it.

I think Kawhi deserved the SAS one as no other player was playing superb for the Spurs. However, in all honestly, the real MVP of that series was whoever made DWade play like crap.


LeBron shoulda gotten both FMVPs
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:55 am    Post subject:

ahaider wrote:

<snip>
Trading for PG is a mistake.
<snip>


Completely disagree. KL and PG were a package deal, every single franchise in their position would do that deal every day of the week and twice on a Sunday.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:02 am    Post subject:

BadGuy wrote:
epic_ wrote:
BadGuy wrote:
activeverb wrote:
BadGuy wrote:
activeverb wrote:

I get that some fans think scoring is the only metric that matters. But I consider both Kawhi and Andre worthy Finals MVP winners.

Kawhi led the Spurs in scoring at 17.8 ppg with shooting a blistering 61% from the field and 58% from 3-point line, while playing great defense.

Andre, for his part, averaged 16 ppg. on 52% and 40% shooting while doing a strong job on Lebron. He really won the award primarily for holding Lebron to 39% from the field and 31% from the 3-point line.

But if you're the type who thinks that defense doesn't matter I can understand why you wouldn't like the choices.


Oh, i appreciate defense. The problem is when people equate Finals MVP to being the best player on the court, which Kawhi and Iguodala never were. Do i think they're worthy of FMVP? Sure. Do i think they were the best players on the court at any point? No. They largely got extra credit for defending the actual best player on the court better than other players did.

Edit: Also, Kawhi did not lead the Spurs in scoring in that series. That would be Tony Parker at 18 ppg

Edit 2: Also, Kawhi's defense on LeBron in that series is a myth. LeBron averaged 28 ppg on 57% FG, 52% 3pt, 79% FT, 8 rpg, 4 apg, and 2 spg. If that's great defense, were we expecting LeBron to average 50 ppg while shooting 70% from the field and 70% from 3?



Most of Lebron's scoring game after the games were decided. In the last three games, he scored 51 of his 81 points (63%) while his team was down 15 points or more.

Anyway, I think both Andre and Kwahi were both good choices. Who would you have given it to?


I really don't think it matters when the scoring came, and i already mentioned i don't have a problem with them being selected. All i am saying is that FMVP does not equate to best player on the court since people love to mention Kawhi as a two-time FMVP as if he carried the Spurs against the Heat.



I thought the Iggy award was 50/50. Could have gone to Steph and I'd be OK with it.

I think Kawhi deserved the SAS one as no other player was playing superb for the Spurs. However, in all honestly, the real MVP of that series was whoever made DWade play like crap.


Shortening the quote chain above to avoid hogging the page. The notion that Kawhi was the only player on the Spurs that played at a high-level in that series is a revisionist fairy tale: https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2014-nba-finals-heat-vs-spurs.html Even Danny Green was playing well. This Spurs team was akin to the '04 Pistons: a true team effort. Kawhi emerged in this series because he was largely ignored due to the multiple stars around him such as Parker, Duncan, and Ginobli, and Kawhi was basically a nobody at the time (so the Heat were happy to let him shoot since he was previously known as a defensive specialist).

As you mentioned, the wheels fell off DWade due to age, and Kawhi got most of the credit for his defense on LeBron (although Danny Green was guarding him at times too - prime Danny Green, not our version of DG). Mind you, LeBron was scoring above his regular season efficiency averages, so i am not sure how effective Kawhi's defense really was.


On that Finals, Lebron shot only 34% from the field when guarded by Kawhi. Lebron shot an even lower percentage (20%) when Kawhi contested his shot.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:06 am    Post subject:

NO Jerry didn't screw the Clippers, Kawhi and PG13 did. He got the players the Lakers wanted. He out GM'd us.

Neither player wanted to play with LeBron. IMO they didn't want to play in his shadow.

Turns out the bright lights were too bright for both, they choked. I was surprised by how fast Kawhi's game left him. His calm demeanor foretold ice water. PG13 was also a surprise. He didn't earn his paycheck. If they were here I don't think he or George would have choked. Bron wouldn't have let them.

Kawhi's not shown he has what it takes to be a leader. He's not shown any leadership skills. His quiet demeanor may say he's not suited to lead.

Maybe in retrospect, Jerry did us a favor. Can't blame this on him. In fact, I really want him to come home.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:12 am    Post subject:

CRoost wrote:
BadGuy wrote:
epic_ wrote:
BadGuy wrote:
activeverb wrote:
BadGuy wrote:
activeverb wrote:

I get that some fans think scoring is the only metric that matters. But I consider both Kawhi and Andre worthy Finals MVP winners.

Kawhi led the Spurs in scoring at 17.8 ppg with shooting a blistering 61% from the field and 58% from 3-point line, while playing great defense.

Andre, for his part, averaged 16 ppg. on 52% and 40% shooting while doing a strong job on Lebron. He really won the award primarily for holding Lebron to 39% from the field and 31% from the 3-point line.

But if you're the type who thinks that defense doesn't matter I can understand why you wouldn't like the choices.


Oh, i appreciate defense. The problem is when people equate Finals MVP to being the best player on the court, which Kawhi and Iguodala never were. Do i think they're worthy of FMVP? Sure. Do i think they were the best players on the court at any point? No. They largely got extra credit for defending the actual best player on the court better than other players did.

Edit: Also, Kawhi did not lead the Spurs in scoring in that series. That would be Tony Parker at 18 ppg

Edit 2: Also, Kawhi's defense on LeBron in that series is a myth. LeBron averaged 28 ppg on 57% FG, 52% 3pt, 79% FT, 8 rpg, 4 apg, and 2 spg. If that's great defense, were we expecting LeBron to average 50 ppg while shooting 70% from the field and 70% from 3?



Most of Lebron's scoring game after the games were decided. In the last three games, he scored 51 of his 81 points (63%) while his team was down 15 points or more.

Anyway, I think both Andre and Kwahi were both good choices. Who would you have given it to?


I really don't think it matters when the scoring came, and i already mentioned i don't have a problem with them being selected. All i am saying is that FMVP does not equate to best player on the court since people love to mention Kawhi as a two-time FMVP as if he carried the Spurs against the Heat.



I thought the Iggy award was 50/50. Could have gone to Steph and I'd be OK with it.

I think Kawhi deserved the SAS one as no other player was playing superb for the Spurs. However, in all honestly, the real MVP of that series was whoever made DWade play like crap.


Shortening the quote chain above to avoid hogging the page. The notion that Kawhi was the only player on the Spurs that played at a high-level in that series is a revisionist fairy tale: https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2014-nba-finals-heat-vs-spurs.html Even Danny Green was playing well. This Spurs team was akin to the '04 Pistons: a true team effort. Kawhi emerged in this series because he was largely ignored due to the multiple stars around him such as Parker, Duncan, and Ginobli, and Kawhi was basically a nobody at the time (so the Heat were happy to let him shoot since he was previously known as a defensive specialist).

As you mentioned, the wheels fell off DWade due to age, and Kawhi got most of the credit for his defense on LeBron (although Danny Green was guarding him at times too - prime Danny Green, not our version of DG). Mind you, LeBron was scoring above his regular season efficiency averages, so i am not sure how effective Kawhi's defense really was.


On that Finals, Lebron shot only 34% from the field when guarded by Kawhi. Lebron shot an even lower percentage (20%) when Kawhi contested his shot.


Source?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:39 am    Post subject:

I don't blame Jerry but I am going to enjoy the aftermath.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:56 am    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
MJST wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
lakerdynasty5.0 wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
Jerry West>>>>>>Jeanie Buss

1. A.C. Green
2. Vlade Divac
3. Elden Campbell
4. Ceballos for Horry
5. Nick Van Exel
6. The trade dump of Lynch and Peeler to free up cap space and letting Vancouver be the suckers
7. Trade with Charlotte for Kobe
8. Derek Fisher
9. Blocking the Tarpley/Aguirre for Worthy trade
10. Nixon for Scott

these were all West


and by those same metrics, Sharman >>>>>>> West (as another poster eloquently said earlier: with a "Rolls Royce" thrown in for good measure)


You wont get any complaints out of me about Sharman. That old Leprechaun became a real Laker (like Rick Fox) and gelled a supremely talented team into the best versions of themselves as a coach with Wilt and West and set up the Showtime dynasty. The drafting of Nixon where he was selected, putting together the Kareem trade, obtaining the draft pick for Worthy - swapping a lowly first round pick in the current year to bet on a team he thought would suck and give a higher draft pick later, and of course letting aging Goodrich walk that ended up being Magic Johnson (although its hard to credit this one - more like a fluky good luck than real foresight)



Agreed about Sharman.

Also the move Jerry West made that was then nixxed by our coach at the time Del Harris.. was that Jerry West was about to make the move that would have gotten us Tracy McGrady, for Eddie Jones. Also he would have been paired with the Shaq and Kobe Lakers.

Now imagine what kind of steal that would have been, and what kind of dynasty they'd have had. But alas, along with Del Harris thinking Kobe's ceiling was as a 6th man, he also refused Tracy McGrady because he thought Eddie Jones was the future of the team. Oh well..


Frankly Im not going to (bleep) on Del for Kobe or McGrady. If I was in Del's shoes, I do not give him more minutes over Jones or Ceballos/Horry his rookie year because Del correctly knew Kobe was not ready and those other players were either better than Kobe at the time (Jones) or fit better with his other teammates (Horry). A hot dogging playmaker brilliant but prone to narcissism and making the stupidest turnovers that would make you want to pull your hair out - that was the young Kobe Bryant. Del also correctly said Kobe's ceiling was hall of fame player and lets be real - he had Nick Van Exel one of the most highly respected clutch players in his team playing well against Utah in that memorable game 5 and he gave the clutch shots to Kobe instead of Nick. That is trust right there - stupid but shows he had a very high opinion of Kobe. As for T-Mac, I dont blame Del and more importantly Buss not wanting to give up a young all star like Eddie for a kid. But I think with Buss's support, West would have pulled that trigger. McGrady at point guard and Kobe would play the traditional shooting guard role which he did his first 2-3 years in the league would have been death for the league. That team realistically 4 peats from 2000-2003 with the end still coming at the same exact time - 2004 Detroit. I dont think having even a prime T-Mac prevents that loss.


Given health (and no ego clashes), Kobe/T-Mac would've been Jordan/Pippen 2.0 except that either guy could play either role depending on the match up. With Shaq in the mix, that team dominates until it collapses under the weight of ego - they probably get 5 and then Shaq's contract ends.

But that is assuming PJax as coach - Del couldn't handle Shaq/NVE. Shaq/Kobe/T-Mac would've required either Phil Jackson or Dr. Phil McGraw.


T-Mac would later say that he'd have been fine playing the Pippen role with Kobe and Shaq being the main force and he "had" to be the man in Orlando because he was all they had, but that with Shaq and Kobe he'd have been 100% fine with being Pippen.

So, the ego clash would have been Kobe and Shaq, and when Shaq was gone, Kobe and McGrady would have been what remained essentially.

I could see them getting to a 4th finals in a row, and I can see them beating Detroit in their 5th, 5 rings before Shaq left is essentially how I'd see it going as well. If they still pulled off the "Payton/Malone" trade, or even just getting one of them, I don't see them losing to Detroit. A lineup of Gary Payton, Kobe Bryant, Tracy Mcgrady, Karl Malone and Shaq would just have been too much to deal with. Even with Detroit's defense, if they caused issues for Shaq or Kobe due to how they played them, that'd still leave McGrady, so they'd really have to pick their poison and I don't think even Larry Brown could have stopped that.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:05 pm    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
MJST wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
lakerdynasty5.0 wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
Jerry West>>>>>>Jeanie Buss

1. A.C. Green
2. Vlade Divac
3. Elden Campbell
4. Ceballos for Horry
5. Nick Van Exel
6. The trade dump of Lynch and Peeler to free up cap space and letting Vancouver be the suckers
7. Trade with Charlotte for Kobe
8. Derek Fisher
9. Blocking the Tarpley/Aguirre for Worthy trade
10. Nixon for Scott

these were all West


and by those same metrics, Sharman >>>>>>> West (as another poster eloquently said earlier: with a "Rolls Royce" thrown in for good measure)


You wont get any complaints out of me about Sharman. That old Leprechaun became a real Laker (like Rick Fox) and gelled a supremely talented team into the best versions of themselves as a coach with Wilt and West and set up the Showtime dynasty. The drafting of Nixon where he was selected, putting together the Kareem trade, obtaining the draft pick for Worthy - swapping a lowly first round pick in the current year to bet on a team he thought would suck and give a higher draft pick later, and of course letting aging Goodrich walk that ended up being Magic Johnson (although its hard to credit this one - more like a fluky good luck than real foresight)



Agreed about Sharman.

Also the move Jerry West made that was then nixxed by our coach at the time Del Harris.. was that Jerry West was about to make the move that would have gotten us Tracy McGrady, for Eddie Jones. Also he would have been paired with the Shaq and Kobe Lakers.

Now imagine what kind of steal that would have been, and what kind of dynasty they'd have had. But alas, along with Del Harris thinking Kobe's ceiling was as a 6th man, he also refused Tracy McGrady because he thought Eddie Jones was the future of the team. Oh well..


Frankly Im not going to (bleep) on Del for Kobe or McGrady. If I was in Del's shoes, I do not give him more minutes over Jones or Ceballos/Horry his rookie year because Del correctly knew Kobe was not ready and those other players were either better than Kobe at the time (Jones) or fit better with his other teammates (Horry). A hot dogging playmaker brilliant but prone to narcissism and making the stupidest turnovers that would make you want to pull your hair out - that was the young Kobe Bryant. Del also correctly said Kobe's ceiling was hall of fame player and lets be real - he had Nick Van Exel one of the most highly respected clutch players in his team playing well against Utah in that memorable game 5 and he gave the clutch shots to Kobe instead of Nick. That is trust right there - stupid but shows he had a very high opinion of Kobe. As for T-Mac, I dont blame Del and more importantly Buss not wanting to give up a young all star like Eddie for a kid. But I think with Buss's support, West would have pulled that trigger. McGrady at point guard and Kobe would play the traditional shooting guard role which he did his first 2-3 years in the league would have been death for the league. That team realistically 4 peats from 2000-2003 with the end still coming at the same exact time - 2004 Detroit. I dont think having even a prime T-Mac prevents that loss.


Given health (and no ego clashes), Kobe/T-Mac would've been Jordan/Pippen 2.0 except that either guy could play either role depending on the match up. With Shaq in the mix, that team dominates until it collapses under the weight of ego - they probably get 5 and then Shaq's contract ends.

But that is assuming PJax as coach - Del couldn't handle Shaq/NVE. Shaq/Kobe/T-Mac would've required either Phil Jackson or Dr. Phil McGraw.


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