2020 NBA DRAFT THREAD
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 46, 47, 48

 
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> LA Lakers Lounge Reply to topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Baron Von Humongous
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 28347

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:30 am    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
If Wiseman was available in the 2021 draft, he'd be at best the third center selected behind Evan Mobley and Usman Garuba around selections #8-12.


I don't see the purpose of this comparison. All drafts are not created equal.

Does this mean Hayes could drop to 17?

GSW the epitome of spacing saw enough value in Wiseman to select him 2nd over the big PG's.

And Sam Hinkie drafted Jahlil Okafor.


And the same team drafted Fultz. Prospects fail for one reason or another. Okafor imo due to immaturity. Not getting that 2nd workout with the Lakers was a tell tale sign. Fultz ????

Okafor failed because he wasn't very good at basketball outside of isolation scoring against smaller dudes.
_________________
https://youtube.com/watch?v=t3jKtjgRZQY
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
PlantedTanks
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 2267

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:40 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
If Wiseman was available in the 2021 draft, he'd be at best the third center selected behind Evan Mobley and Usman Garuba around selections #8-12.


I don't see the purpose of this comparison. All drafts are not created equal.

Does this mean Hayes could drop to 17?

GSW the epitome of spacing saw enough value in Wiseman to select him 2nd over the big PG's.


More like they got Stephen Curry to take all the shots and built the team like how you'd build around Pistol Pete.


Understand you build around your superstar but if C's are readily available why take a Wiseman when you could draft the more important talented tall PG's?

Use the Celtics as an example They keep adding wings to the team while not properly building the foundation around Tatum with a capable Center. Good for the regular season but abject failures during the playoffs.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Mike@LG
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 63317
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:42 am    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
If Wiseman was available in the 2021 draft, he'd be at best the third center selected behind Evan Mobley and Usman Garuba around selections #8-12.


I don't see the purpose of this comparison. All drafts are not created equal.

Does this mean Hayes could drop to 17?

GSW the epitome of spacing saw enough value in Wiseman to select him 2nd over the big PG's.


More like they got Stephen Curry to take all the shots and built the team like how you'd build around Pistol Pete.


Understand you build around your superstar but if C's are readily available why take a Wiseman when you could draft the more important talented tall PG's?

Use the Celtics as an example They keep adding wings to the team while not properly building the foundation around Tatum with a capable Center. Good for the regular season but abject failures during the playoffs.


I'm more of a BPA guy than draft positional need guy.

Theis is actually a plenty capable center. It's when teams tried to attack Kemba where things became an issue.

Theis is sorely underrated as a 5. Spacing and above average defense there. But BOS doesn't have any specialists in anything outside of Smart. Tatum does a lot of things high level, but he's not the star yet. Jaylen still has awareness issues. Kemba isn't as clean of a fit when the wings do all the iso scoring in the halfcourt.

Their PF slot is where they're WEAK. Can't have defensive holes in the frontline.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.

Caruso/Dennis
KCP/Matthews
LBJ/Matthews/Kuzma
AD/Kuzma/Kieff/LBJ
Gasol/Harrell/Kieff/AD/LBJ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Baron Von Humongous
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 28347

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:50 pm    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
If Wiseman was available in the 2021 draft, he'd be at best the third center selected behind Evan Mobley and Usman Garuba around selections #8-12.


Amen.

The only *real* value to bigs is when they have guard skills on both ends of the floor. Otherwise PnR dive men / swat bigs, no matter how much variance in athleticism, are a dime a dozen for relatively the same amount of effectiveness.

The only NBA trend that has been incredibly obvious, outside of Shaq, is guard skills with size. Having any kind of 6'7" PG with a certain degree of triple threat skills is just a +++ on offense.


How do you value the following

J Embid
D Ayton
R Gobert
N Jokic
KA Towns
B Adebayo

None of them bring guard skills to both ends of the court but are valuable components and in some cases the star component to their teams.

There seems to be the perception that spacing is the end all be all for NBA offenses. For the last 40 years the per game scoring has stayed relatively the same with a few variances here and there.

What has changed is the pace which results in more possessions. Otherwise defense is still the key to winning the chip.

Wiseman's contribution to winning is that he can get to passes for dunks that other players can't reach and he helps prevent easy baskets around the rim. Gobert is an elite rim protector who has finished several seasons in his career leading the league in TS%. But he doesn't have guard skill on either end - he struggles to defend in space on switches (or even against face-up scoring bigs like AD) and he doesn't have a diverse enough offensive skill set to punish teams on the other end.

Will Wiseman be as good of a rim protector as Rudy Gobert? My guess is that he won't be. Will he finish as well as Rudy Gobert around the rim? That seems possible. Will he defend better in space than Rudy Gobert? He should, but...how much better? Does he bring a more diverse offensive skill set than Rudy Gobert? Obviously.

But how much surplus value can Wiseman bring on that end? Gobert knows his limitations on offense and plays within them unless forced out of his comfort zone by a good defense. Wiseman will be a much better post scorer than Rudy, but iso post scoring is one of the more inefficient ways to finish a possession. It's useful to have as an option, but I wouldn't make it my primary source of offense unless prime Shaq is around.

Speaking of Shaq, he was always underrated as a passer even if he was never a maestro like Arvydis Sabonis. I don't trust Gobert to make more than the most basic reads and passes, but he usually doesn't have the ball in his hands long enough for that to be an issue. If Wiseman is projected to provide more offensive value than Gobert or Steven Adams, he'll need to make more complicated decisions with the ball in his hands, right? Has Wiseman shown any propensity at any level ever to read a defense and find an open man against different types of doubles? He's not Yinka Dare, but I would think a prerequisite for being trusted with the ball in your hands is that you're not going to shoot every time, certainly not at the expense of better looks your teammates may have.

I'm struggling to see how Wiseman provides much more offensive value than Steven Adams. Wiseman may have a mid-post turnaround jumper that Adams doesn't have, but it seems to me that a play that involves Wiseman as a decisionmaker rather than as a play finisher - that includes being an eventual C&S threat - is a possession I would rather have someone else orchestrate if my goal was to have an efficient offense.
_________________
https://youtube.com/watch?v=t3jKtjgRZQY
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Mike@LG
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 63317
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:23 pm    Post subject:

Quote:

J Embid
D Ayton
R Gobert
N Jokic
KA Towns
B Adebayo


You literally listed all bigs that have guard skills and one DPOY candidate.

As mentioned in an earlier post, if it's a big with guard skills, it works. I don't see the ball handling, passing, shooting range, or perimeter switchability out of wiseman. So that makes him Dwight Howard at best right? So, Wiseman needs to be a DPOY type to fulfill his upside?

I'll pass.

To me, this is the difference between Duncan and Olajuwon vs. Robinson, and Robinson's midrange J was money. Duncan and Olajuwon could *rarely* switch, but still pass, shoot out to 21', and be great Iso shot creators, both underrated with ball handling.

We know how Olajuwon vs Robinson turned out.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.

Caruso/Dennis
KCP/Matthews
LBJ/Matthews/Kuzma
AD/Kuzma/Kieff/LBJ
Gasol/Harrell/Kieff/AD/LBJ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
PlantedTanks
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 2267

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:08 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

J Embid
D Ayton
R Gobert
N Jokic
KA Towns
B Adebayo


You literally listed all bigs that have guard skills and one DPOY candidate.

As mentioned in an earlier post, if it's a big with guard skills, it works. I don't see the ball handling, passing, shooting range, or perimeter switchability out of wiseman. So that makes him Dwight Howard at best right? So, Wiseman needs to be a DPOY type to fulfill his upside?

I'll pass.

To me, this is the difference between Duncan and Olajuwon vs. Robinson, and Robinson's midrange J was money. Duncan and Olajuwon could *rarely* switch, but still pass, shoot out to 21', and be great Iso shot creators, both underrated with ball handling.

We know how Olajuwon vs Robinson turned out.


Basically you are looking at bigs that may exhibit 1 possibly 2 guard skills. Can they guard the perimeter like a guard? I say no. Besides shooting and passing and some only have 1 of these skills what else do you want your bigs to do that are guard like?

In his prep days Wiseman showed he can handle the ball. Shooting range will extend and I wouldn't be surprised if he has extended it already. Do we want 7's shooting 3's?

There is a failure to account for improvement in skills as they mature and receive NBA training and development. Hard to gauge passing until he gains NBA experience.

Would we have known any of these could pass coming straight out of high school?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
PlantedTanks
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 2267

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:18 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
If Wiseman was available in the 2021 draft, he'd be at best the third center selected behind Evan Mobley and Usman Garuba around selections #8-12.


Amen.

The only *real* value to bigs is when they have guard skills on both ends of the floor. Otherwise PnR dive men / swat bigs, no matter how much variance in athleticism, are a dime a dozen for relatively the same amount of effectiveness.

The only NBA trend that has been incredibly obvious, outside of Shaq, is guard skills with size. Having any kind of 6'7" PG with a certain degree of triple threat skills is just a +++ on offense.


How do you value the following

J Embid
D Ayton
R Gobert
N Jokic
KA Towns
B Adebayo

None of them bring guard skills to both ends of the court but are valuable components and in some cases the star component to their teams.

There seems to be the perception that spacing is the end all be all for NBA offenses. For the last 40 years the per game scoring has stayed relatively the same with a few variances here and there.

What has changed is the pace which results in more possessions. Otherwise defense is still the key to winning the chip.

Wiseman's contribution to winning is that he can get to passes for dunks that other players can't reach and he helps prevent easy baskets around the rim. Gobert is an elite rim protector who has finished several seasons in his career leading the league in TS%. But he doesn't have guard skill on either end - he struggles to defend in space on switches (or even against face-up scoring bigs like AD) and he doesn't have a diverse enough offensive skill set to punish teams on the other end.

Will Wiseman be as good of a rim protector as Rudy Gobert? My guess is that he won't be. Will he finish as well as Rudy Gobert around the rim? That seems possible. Will he defend better in space than Rudy Gobert? He should, but...how much better? Does he bring a more diverse offensive skill set than Rudy Gobert? Obviously.

But how much surplus value can Wiseman bring on that end? Gobert knows his limitations on offense and plays within them unless forced out of his comfort zone by a good defense. Wiseman will be a much better post scorer than Rudy, but iso post scoring is one of the more inefficient ways to finish a possession. It's useful to have as an option, but I wouldn't make it my primary source of offense unless prime Shaq is around.

Speaking of Shaq, he was always underrated as a passer even if he was never a maestro like Arvydis Sabonis. I don't trust Gobert to make more than the most basic reads and passes, but he usually doesn't have the ball in his hands long enough for that to be an issue. If Wiseman is projected to provide more offensive value than Gobert or Steven Adams, he'll need to make more complicated decisions with the ball in his hands, right? Has Wiseman shown any propensity at any level ever to read a defense and find an open man against different types of doubles? He's not Yinka Dare, but I would think a prerequisite for being trusted with the ball in your hands is that you're not going to shoot every time, certainly not at the expense of better looks your teammates may have.

I'm struggling to see how Wiseman provides much more offensive value than Steven Adams. Wiseman may have a mid-post turnaround jumper that Adams doesn't have, but it seems to me that a play that involves Wiseman as a decisionmaker rather than as a play finisher - that includes being an eventual C&S threat - is a possession I would rather have someone else orchestrate if my goal was to have an efficient offense.


Did we know Shaq was a capable passer coming out of high school or even after 1 year at LSU? I'm sure that developed as his NBA career went on. I'm also sure Shaq's ability to read a defense was rudimentary entering the league and significantly improved as he gained experience.

Don't we have to account for improvements with NBA training and development + experience?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Mike@LG
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 63317
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:21 pm    Post subject:

Quote:


Basically you are looking at bigs that may exhibit 1 possibly 2 guard skills. Can they guard the perimeter like a guard? I say no. Besides shooting and passing and some only have 1 of these skills what else do you want your bigs to do that are guard like?

In his prep days Wiseman showed he can handle the ball. Shooting range will extend and I wouldn't be surprised if he has extended it already. Do we want 7's shooting 3's?

There is a failure to account for improvement in skills as they mature and receive NBA training and development. Hard to gauge passing until he gains NBA experience.

Would we have known any of these could pass coming straight out of high school?


Joel Embiid himself isn't that switchable anymore. He was, once, until the 76ers had him pack on all the weight. Even then, he's had tremendous interior defensive impact for awhile but it just isn't as consistent as it used to be.

But really, look at the guys you listed. Embiid has 3pt range and has shown some ability to pass. Jokic is a 7' elite PG, just slow as molasses. KAT is the most dominant 3pt shooting big and he slashes like a wing.

Ayton actually has a shot of being switchable and having 3pt. range. He came out of college with 18' range already. He's the freakish one athletically, but hasn't sorted it all out yet.

Rudy Gobert is the extreme example of PnR roll man and swat big. He's a DPOY candidate. If you think Wiseman has this kind of upside, then sure, he's worth it. That raises the floor of a team.

Personally, I don't see it, because what happens if you're not that type of defensive big? In terms of impact on a game, it's not much. All of a sudden, 5's like Theis have more game impact. It's peculiar to watch.

But if you believe in Wiseman's upside, so be it. I don't.

In HS, I just saw a guy that could outsize/outathleticise everyone at the high school level, so he didn't have to rely on skills. When he barely played for Memphis, he was showing shooting range, within the painted area.

Quote:
Would we have known any of these could pass coming straight out of high school?


Adebayo and Jokic. Embiid, AD, Ayton, Towns just make basic reads. Gobert is a non passer.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.

Caruso/Dennis
KCP/Matthews
LBJ/Matthews/Kuzma
AD/Kuzma/Kieff/LBJ
Gasol/Harrell/Kieff/AD/LBJ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
PlantedTanks
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 2267

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:18 am    Post subject:

Would like to sign this prospect (Borisa Simanic) to a 2 way contract. Want to see how his skills match up vs. nba type athletes in the G-league. Not many 6'11" players can show this type of diverse skills. Even for a highlight video it is quite impressive.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kpng4u6Xpe8
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
MJST
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 19175

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 12:43 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
If Wiseman was available in the 2021 draft, he'd be at best the third center selected behind Evan Mobley and Usman Garuba around selections #8-12.


I don't see the purpose of this comparison. All drafts are not created equal.

Does this mean Hayes could drop to 17?

GSW the epitome of spacing saw enough value in Wiseman to select him 2nd over the big PG's.

And Sam Hinkie drafted Jahlil Okafor.


And the same team drafted Fultz. Prospects fail for one reason or another. Okafor imo due to immaturity. Not getting that 2nd workout with the Lakers was a tell tale sign. Fultz ????

Okafor failed because he wasn't very good at basketball outside of isolation scoring against smaller dudes.


Yeah, people can go about wh the 76ers should have drafted. If we want to be honest, 76ers could have drafted Porzingis and Giannis and paired them with Embiid. But sometimes it doesn't go that way.
_________________
How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> LA Lakers Lounge All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 46, 47, 48
Page 48 of 48
Jump to:  

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum






Graphics by uberzev
© 1995-2018 LakersGround.net. All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy. Terms of Use.
LakersGround is an unofficial news source serving the fan community since 1995.
We are in no way associated with the Los Angeles Lakers or the National Basketball Association.


Powered by phpBB