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LakerDYnasty72
Star Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 4568
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 Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| deal wrote: | For whatever it's worth, Marc does not seem to be able to hold up for the entire season.
I did cringe when Dwight walked but that's done, can't fix it.
We will need a C and give him minutes. Obviously, Marc could probably use
rest for about 50% of the season, you want him for the PO's, which opens
up additional playing time.
Also, AD has been healthy but last season we had his back with DH
and Mc.
Dedmon? Someone else? Don't know but IMO, there's a need. |
We look forward to the best version of Gasol as the season progresses, but the mistake, at least from an optics standpoint right now , is the replacing McGee with Gasol.
Wouldn't we rather have a 7ft athletic shot blocker, rebounder, along side AD right now? I would. |
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lakersfever714
Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 11755
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerDYnasty72 wrote: | | deal wrote: | For whatever it's worth, Marc does not seem to be able to hold up for the entire season.
I did cringe when Dwight walked but that's done, can't fix it.
We will need a C and give him minutes. Obviously, Marc could probably use
rest for about 50% of the season, you want him for the PO's, which opens
up additional playing time.
Also, AD has been healthy but last season we had his back with DH
and Mc.
Dedmon? Someone else? Don't know but IMO, there's a need. |
We look forward to the best version of Gasol as the season progresses, but the mistake, at least from an optics standpoint right now , is the replacing McGee with Gasol.
Wouldn't we rather have a 7ft athletic shot blocker, rebounder, along side AD right now? I would. |
Rob obviously thought Gasol was better than McGee that's why he got Gasol and got rid of McGee. I really don't understand the talk about Gasol's passing ability and 3-pt shot though because our offense is fine. Lebron and AD have enough shooters on the team to blow out any opponents on a good night. We didn't need more shooting and passing from our center. We didn't need more scoring from Harrell. We gave up a lot of defense and rebounding for more offense which we don't really need.
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Last edited by lakersfever714 on Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mike@LG
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Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | We gave up a lot of defense and rebounding for more offense which we don't really need. |
Vehement disagree here.
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LakerLogic
Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 17886
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerDYnasty72 wrote: | | deal wrote: | For whatever it's worth, Marc does not seem to be able to hold up for the entire season.
I did cringe when Dwight walked but that's done, can't fix it.
We will need a C and give him minutes. Obviously, Marc could probably use
rest for about 50% of the season, you want him for the PO's, which opens
up additional playing time.
Also, AD has been healthy but last season we had his back with DH
and Mc.
Dedmon? Someone else? Don't know but IMO, there's a need. |
We look forward to the best version of Gasol as the season progresses, but the mistake, at least from an optics standpoint right now , is the replacing McGee with Gasol.
Wouldn't we rather have a 7ft athletic shot blocker, rebounder, along side AD right now? I would. |
McGee can't rebound and didn't play in the playoffs. We've lost a bit of shot-blocking but it's moot in the playoffs when AD plays the 5. |
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lakersfever714
Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 11755
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | We gave up a lot of defense and rebounding for more offense which we don't really need. |
Vehement disagree here. |
You're gonna have to elaborate. Howard's been a rebounding machine his entire career. His offense is actually quite good if there are elite passers like Lebron and Rondo on the floor so maybe you're right, we didn't even give up much offense so Gasol is just a worse defender and rebounder.
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lakersfever714
Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 11755
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLogic wrote: | | LakerDYnasty72 wrote: | | deal wrote: | For whatever it's worth, Marc does not seem to be able to hold up for the entire season.
I did cringe when Dwight walked but that's done, can't fix it.
We will need a C and give him minutes. Obviously, Marc could probably use
rest for about 50% of the season, you want him for the PO's, which opens
up additional playing time.
Also, AD has been healthy but last season we had his back with DH
and Mc.
Dedmon? Someone else? Don't know but IMO, there's a need. |
We look forward to the best version of Gasol as the season progresses, but the mistake, at least from an optics standpoint right now , is the replacing McGee with Gasol.
Wouldn't we rather have a 7ft athletic shot blocker, rebounder, along side AD right now? I would. |
McGee can't rebound and didn't play in the playoffs. We've lost a bit of shot-blocking but it's moot in the playoffs when AD plays the 5. |
Let's hope AD will have the same energy in the playoffs without the 3 month rest and lets hope Harrell could be that second pillar that anchors our defense because that's what we're gonna need.
I don't expect Lebron to have another monster playoff to carry the team without that extended rest so everyone else is gonna have to contribute.
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Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| lakersfever714 wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | We gave up a lot of defense and rebounding for more offense which we don't really need. |
Vehement disagree here. |
You're gonna have to elaborate. Howard's been a rebounding machine his entire career. His offense is actually quite good if there are elite passers like Lebron and Rondo on the floor so maybe you're right, we didn't even give up much offense so Gasol is just a worse defender and rebounder. |
LAL needed more offense. It was 1 dimensional all last season.
Gave up a ton of defense? Not really. It's just different. We have positional defenders, not swatters. Stuff like that takes longer to adjust to as a unit.
Rebounding machine? Eh, For all the "punishment in the paint" from the last game, LAL outrebounded LAC.
The Lakers did not lose because of incompetency at 5, and considering the lineups they used in the last 10 or so minutes, didn't care about a W.
All this goes back to the original point.
None of the current centers in the market help the Lakers in the way that Dwight Howard did
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LakerDYnasty72
Star Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 4568
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLogic wrote: | | LakerDYnasty72 wrote: | | deal wrote: | For whatever it's worth, Marc does not seem to be able to hold up for the entire season.
I did cringe when Dwight walked but that's done, can't fix it.
We will need a C and give him minutes. Obviously, Marc could probably use
rest for about 50% of the season, you want him for the PO's, which opens
up additional playing time.
Also, AD has been healthy but last season we had his back with DH
and Mc.
Dedmon? Someone else? Don't know but IMO, there's a need. |
We look forward to the best version of Gasol as the season progresses, but the mistake, at least from an optics standpoint right now , is the replacing McGee with Gasol.
Wouldn't we rather have a 7ft athletic shot blocker, rebounder, along side AD right now? I would. |
McGee can't rebound and didn't play in the playoffs. We've lost a bit of shot-blocking but it's moot in the playoffs when AD plays the 5. |
McGee, granted, like so many, didn't look good last year. He was definitely off, especially in the playoffs just like, ironically they said, Gasol was.
A championship and playing next to AD still could have left an awesome defensive presence in tact, while adding athleticism and scoring off the bench if Howard chose to leave.
Debate the point ad nauseam, but there will be times Gasol will also be unplayable in the playoffs. |
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LakerSD
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2016
Posts: 23778
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | We gave up a lot of defense and rebounding for more offense which we don't really need. |
Vehement disagree here. |
You're gonna have to elaborate. Howard's been a rebounding machine his entire career. His offense is actually quite good if there are elite passers like Lebron and Rondo on the floor so maybe you're right, we didn't even give up much offense so Gasol is just a worse defender and rebounder. |
LAL needed more offense. It was 1 dimensional all last season.
Gave up a ton of defense? Not really. It's just different. We have positional defenders, not swatters. Stuff like that takes longer to adjust to as a unit.
Rebounding machine? Eh, For all the "punishment in the paint" from the last game, LAL outrebounded LAC.
The Lakers did not lose because of incompetency at 5, and considering the lineups they used in the last 10 or so minutes, didn't care about a W.
All this goes back to the original point.
None of the current centers in the market help the Lakers in the way that Dwight Howard did |
100%.
As teams begin to fall off, someone of that ilk will be available at deadline time or buyout market.
The Lakers absolutely needed the offensive makeover. |
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Lakerwayne
Sixth Man
Joined: 14 Sep 2020
Posts: 68
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Seriously how come nobody else wants Kyle oquinn? From what I’ve seen from him he’s a big guy that can bring some defense rim protection rebounding and passing in limited minutes and he has a good attitude! I think he’d be a good pickup! |
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Inspector Gadget
Retired Number
Joined: 18 Apr 2016
Posts: 46639
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| I don’t watch Pacers games but Myles Turner does seem to always get up for Lakers games more then any other team so the Lakers FO has an idea of what he can bring to the table. |
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LakerSD
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2016
Posts: 23778
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Lakerwayne wrote: | | Seriously how come nobody else wants Kyle oquinn? From what I’ve seen from him he’s a big guy that can bring some defense rim protection rebounding and passing in limited minutes and he has a good attitude! I think he’d be a good pickup! |
He’s 6’9” and more of a scrappy type. Not what is needed for this team. |
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Lakerwayne
Sixth Man
Joined: 14 Sep 2020
Posts: 68
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerSD wrote: | | Lakerwayne wrote: | | Seriously how come nobody else wants Kyle oquinn? From what I’ve seen from him he’s a big guy that can bring some defense rim protection rebounding and passing in limited minutes and he has a good attitude! I think he’d be a good pickup! |
He’s 6’9” and more of a scrappy type. Not what is needed for this team. |
Ya I get that tho I think he plays a little bigger than his height cuz he has good length and a wide body |
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cal1piggy
Star Player
Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 2584
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| they should sign one to a non-guaranteed contract for the time being. |
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troy
Star Player
Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 4975
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | M2K - Go look at the Dwight thread, and even if you know anything about me, look up 2012-14 posts on Dwight on LG with me. I am a huge fan of the guy's game he is major league impact when he wants and fits in. He definitely was a no brainer re-signing at the vet min plus raise which is what he was asking for. I do not think it was about that at all. I believe it's about this (Going to re-post my post from other thread)
| Quote: | This is just my own gut feeling, but I think initially right aftet the playoffs going into the offseason Rob 100% wanted Dwight back, and Dwight 100 percent wanted to come back. But then he spoke to Klutch, and realized that Trez was coming for MLE. Once he did that, I think part of the discussion with Klutch was Trez's role. Trez was not gonna get sat behind Dwight. If you look at what Dwight does, and what Trez does, it is quite the same how they would be used on both ends and what the role was. Now when Klutch starts to look at Vogel's coaching style, and minutes, easy to see how with Dwight, Vogel would often go with Dwight instead of Trez. It would have been a minute mess. Neither guy would get a lot of minutes but our team would have definitely been better, However agents don't care about stuff like that. So when Dwight's agent calls, they don't offer him a contract, knowing that they have to first get commitment from Trez. Dwight not certain of what is coming, goes with the team that is showing 100% interest.
I totally understand both sides here. To vilify Dwight is wrong. To vilify Rob is also wrong (assuming you believe in Trez). The only thing to debate here would be whether Trez will be an upgrade over Dwight? I think so, but we will see in 6 months.
I just think even if we don't repeat this year, having a roster of so many younger in prime players, makes us better for the longriun, that keeping all the same guys. Not only would keeping the same guys have not guaranteed a repeat, it would also mean if we don't repeat, we're kinda (bleep) in terms of trades and other moves. Now, even if we don't repeat, we can upgrade via trade. We have a lot more flexibility to make moves, especially for a 3rd star than we ever would have previously.
You add a 3rd star to an old Bron, in prime AD, and now you have a shot at a ring that wasn't coming with old Bron previously.
I think we made the right call in the longrun, but it remains to be seen if we made the right call in the immediate term. Rob's moves this past offseason were not just about the immediate, but also making sure that the Lakers can have a championship window with old Bron. Keeping guys like Dwight helps for this one year, but you gotta look at the longrun as well. In a perfect world we keep those vet role guys as well, but agents and the type of minutes these free agents will get, play a HUGE part in them signing. Trez was not coming here with Dwight, and Dwight was not gonna re-sign with Trez shown preference. That's just how the FA game works. I have no issue with it, I understand both the limitations of Trez and also the huge advantages in having him (both as a talented player, and longterm asset). |
You give LA the option of having Dwight, Trez, and then trading McGee to open up space for Gasol, they do all that in a heart beat. But it was never going to be like that. Free agents and their agents get involved and they want to have a situation where guys get respected, guys get minutes, etc. This was a situation where the Lakers picked the younger player with better trade value and a longterm move, over a short term older player. In my opinion there was never a Trez + Dwight option. It was Trez or Dwight. Both guys were looking for the same role and their agents knew as much. Think of it as acting, auditioning. And the part was won by Trez. Remember, Dwight never got an actual offer. With reason, Klutch would never have sent Trez to LAL with Dwight here. |
To me, if it's between Dwight and Trez, I still go for Dwight. Surprising, yes. Being that Trez was the 6th man of the year. So why do I feel this way?
1) Defense. Defense, defense, defense. We win based on defense. That was proven last season. Dwight is bigger, stronger, and is a true rim protector. Defensively, Dwight is superior to Trez in every way.
2). Offense. Now bear with me...is Trez a better scorer than Dwight? Yes. But within our scheme, Dwight will likely prove a better fit than Trez.
Our offense is predicated on us attacking outside first, then work our way inside. Lebron brings it up and usually distributes around the key, not down low. He then goes in motion, either cutting, or coming of screens. If not that, then he passes it to AD, who works the pinch post (hence, why he doesn't like to play the 5). While opposing teams are concentrating on our high key movement and cuts, Dwight/McGee will usually sneak in for the alley-oop high key lob. With Trez, he needs to do work his work down low, and against a smaller defender, and he needs the ball in his hands to be effective. Problem is, both AD and Lebron are the main handlers in our offense. This is why Trez can't be a starter. His game doesn't jive well with our offense, being led by Lebron and AD. Whereas Dwight and McGee had the perfect offensive game to compliment Lebron and AD.
3) rebounding. I give Dwight the rebounding edge simply because he has, in his mature years, made rebounding a priority (since put backs are his main source of points). He effectively uses his bulk to carve out strategic spots. Trez doesn't do this. Trez is an opportunistic rebounder, while Dwight is a pure rebounder.
4) Intangibles. I haven't seen enough of Trez to know of his bb IQ and demeanor. I know that Dwight was on a mission, trying to prove his worth and vindicate himself. Maybe that kept him in check. But honestly, I think maturity (and maybe marriage) forced him to turn over a new leaf. What's more is that it really did seem like he wanted to be a Laker, which is vitally important. Trez, on the other hand, seems to be another one of our rental mercenaries. Not sure if he's bought into the Laker way. Also, Dwight was something of an enforcer. A paper-lion, perhaps, but an enforcer, none the less. And he brought an enthusiasm both on the court and on the sidelines that I believe the Lakers fed on. Trez seems to be a brooder. The kind of player that's in it for himself. I don't know. Just my speculation.
5). Money. Dwight is not only the better player (for the Lakers scheme) but also cheaper.
So, again, I put this as a Pelinka failure. Neither Trez nor Gasol are better fits for what this Lakers team needs. And I think Vogel agrees with that, but Pelinka, for all his genius, f'k up somewhere somehow and now Vogel has to work with what he's got. Time will tell if this new combo of Trez/Gasol are more effective than Mcgee/Howard. Fingers crossed, but not exactly holding my breath. |
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M2K
Star Player
Joined: 20 Feb 2011
Posts: 2432
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerDYnasty72 wrote: | | M2K wrote: | | slavavov wrote: | I'd love for use to have another athletic C who can block shots, run the floor and finish lob passes.
But do we really need another C to be a great defensive team? There's other ways to have an elite defense without having more than one elite shot blocker, right?
I trust coach Vogel to figure this out on the defensive end. |
Do we need another C to be a great defensive team?
The answer is... it would definitely help.
If you are attacking the rim, would you prefer to face Dwight Howard or Marc Gasol?
If you are trying to defend someone attacking the rim, would you prefer Dwight Howard or Marc Gasol behind you?
Marc Gasol intimidates no one as a defender. Dwight Howard's presence has players "aware" of his shot blocking abilities before they even begin their drive to the basket.
The real question is... was it worth giving up an intimidating shot blocker, with real presence and Championship experience... for less than $3 million a year?
Most people would say... no. |
I need one simple question answered from you, or anyone else who knows a da_n thing.
Did we "give up", surrender, screw around with, or anything else with Dwight, or did just have a "knee jerk reaction" to something he didn't like as some describe it, and just decided to leave? |
First off... no one needs to answer you. So chill out.
Secondly, I believe if the FO wanted Dwight Howard in a Lakers uniform next year, Dwight would be a Laker.
LeBron talks to everyone in the league to join the Lakers (and convinces his fair share), if he believes that player is available and can help him win a Championship.
The fact that we had Dwight Howard and the FO let him walk... without a peep from James or AD... tells me Dwight was undervalued on the Lakers. And, maybe they're right.
As I look at our team and our needs and the production we had from the Center position (both by Howard and McGee) during the regular season and post season, where are you going to get that type of veteran presence and energy, to fill a specific role at the Center position for under $3 million?
I'm hoping, like everyone else, that the FO made the right call.
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A three headed monster... Jeannie, Pelinka, and Ham... another terrible season. |
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lakerican
Star Player
Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 3786
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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The Dwight Howard fanclub going strong!  |
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LakerDYnasty72
Star Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 4568
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| M2K wrote: | | LakerDYnasty72 wrote: | | M2K wrote: | | slavavov wrote: | I'd love for use to have another athletic C who can block shots, run the floor and finish lob passes.
But do we really need another C to be a great defensive team? There's other ways to have an elite defense without having more than one elite shot blocker, right?
I trust coach Vogel to figure this out on the defensive end. |
Do we need another C to be a great defensive team?
The answer is... it would definitely help.
If you are attacking the rim, would you prefer to face Dwight Howard or Marc Gasol?
If you are trying to defend someone attacking the rim, would you prefer Dwight Howard or Marc Gasol behind you?
Marc Gasol intimidates no one as a defender. Dwight Howard's presence has players "aware" of his shot blocking abilities before they even begin their drive to the basket.
The real question is... was it worth giving up an intimidating shot blocker, with real presence and Championship experience... for less than $3 million a year?
Most people would say... no. |
I need one simple question answered from you, or anyone else who knows a da_n thing.
Did we "give up", surrender, screw around with, or anything else with Dwight, or did just have a "knee jerk reaction" to something he didn't like as some describe it, and just decided to leave? |
First off... no one needs to answer you. So chill out.
Secondly, I believe if the FO wanted Dwight Howard in a Lakers uniform next year, Dwight would be a Laker.
LeBron talks to everyone in the league to join the Lakers (and convinces his fair share), if he believes that player is available and can help him win a Championship.
The fact that we had Dwight Howard and the FO let him walk... without a peep from James or AD... tells me Dwight was undervalued on the Lakers. And, maybe they're right.
As I look at our team and our needs and the production we had from the Center position (both by Howard and McGee) during the regular season and post season, where are you going to get that type of veteran presence and energy, to fill a specific role at the Center position for under $3 million?
I'm hoping, like everyone else, that the FO made the right call. |
What in the world made you start with such a f'uped response? I frame a question and asked it. Next time, feel free to NOT answer my posts and I'll surely ignore yours. |
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lakersfever714
Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 11755
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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We're not gonna give up any of our assets to trade for a center. If there's a bought out center, then we could pick him up. Otherwise, our team is good enough as it because we have more than enough offense to make up for our less stingy defense.
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Kobefied
Starting Rotation
Joined: 17 May 2008
Posts: 556
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| Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| lakersfever714 wrote: | | We're not gonna give up any of our assets to trade for a center. If there's a bought out center, then we could pick him up. Otherwise, our team is good enough as it because we have more than enough offense to make up for our less stingy defense. |
Disagree. Give up one or our assets and trade for a center.
Got too many guards can't even get Tucker into the game.
Hopefully by trade deadline pull the trigger and get us a shot blocking center that we will need for the playoffs.
Gasol is too slow, he barely can jump - too many easy baskets given. |
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SPO200
Star Player
Joined: 28 Jun 2018
Posts: 1458
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| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| We'll get one in the future when the min gets prorated enough. Championships aren't won in Christmas. |
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lakersfever714
Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 11755
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| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| Kobefied wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | | We're not gonna give up any of our assets to trade for a center. If there's a bought out center, then we could pick him up. Otherwise, our team is good enough as it because we have more than enough offense to make up for our less stingy defense. |
Disagree. Give up one or our assets and trade for a center.
Got too many guards can't even get Tucker into the game.
Hopefully by trade deadline pull the trigger and get us a shot blocking center that we will need for the playoffs.
Gasol is too slow, he barely can jump - too many easy baskets given. |
We were fine with McGee playing 15 minutes a game last year. Gasol is the new McGee. We were fine with McGee last year so we'll be fine with Gasol this year. We need the depth for this season's condensed schedule. Tucker is depth.
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LeGoat! LeMazing! LeGend!
Last edited by lakersfever714 on Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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70sdude
Star Player
Joined: 05 Feb 2009
Posts: 4567
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| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:19 am Post subject: |
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I never understood any of the preseason chest pounding at LG that the Laker club had both improved the rotation from last season, that it had perhaps all-time great depth and that Gasol/Harrell were going to be serviceable at all as depth at center.
None of that looked promising in November to me. Not at all, especially having given up Green, the club's second best defensive wing we had last season; his defensive hoops IQ seemed undervalued in the swap.
That said, I'm watching to see how well this roster begins to fit together over time, given, say, 30 games or so together. |
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