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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 6:15 am    Post subject:

Laker_Town wrote:

I'd say LeBron will always be remembered as a Cavs first for obvious reasons.


I think future fans and fan bases determine who they remember as belonging to what team so I wouldn’t be so sure about this. A lot of it is propaganda.

Nowadays we claim Wilt as part of the Laker legacy even though he spent his prime years in Philly, but I’d be curious to know what fans back then thought. Bill Walton was mostly washed by the time he played for Boston and yet as a kid I thought he was a Celtic because a bunch of those old NBA productions showed him alongside Bird and McHale all the time and made it sound like he was one of the best 6th men the Celtics have ever had for a championship team. Vlade Divac has his best statistical years here and even got to the Finals with us, and yet he is remembered as a King and still doesn’t have his jersey retired here even though he is a HOFer.

When all is said and done, future Laker fans will claim Bron especially since he won one championship here. And since Laker fans will outnumber Cavs fans and Laker media will be seen more than Cavs media, there’s a chance Bron will get Laker Wilt Chamberlained/Celtic Bill Waltoned into a Laker.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:54 am    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
If think paying a similar price for Kareem as AD is a good investment... that is your right. Personally, I think we paid too much and that's before even mentioning all the other small pieces we let go along the way for capspace.


They won a title due to that trade. Meanwhile New Orleans has yet to make the playoffs with those guys they traded away and are off to a 1-7 start this season. They haven't won more than 31 games in either of those seasons. The Lakers don't win a title with those guys during the Lebron era. They weren't enough, at least not at this stage of their careers.

It would have been more interesting if they also had Randle and someone else in place of DLO. But as much as I love Ingram, he, Lonzo, and Hart do not add up to one AD. And the Lakers brought in Lebron to win now.


The Pelicans barely made the playoffs with AD, I think that the trade had little effect on the Pelican franchise. They couldn’t win with AD and they haven’t won with the players that they traded him for. They more than likely will win nothing with Zion. My question is will Randle add up to one AD? Both led a lottery team to a first round playoff loss, will Julius lead the Knicks beyond that? AD has teamed up with Lebron, he is no longer leading anything.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:57 am    Post subject:

SGV-Laker fan wrote:
"home grown" is another name for being cheap, being complacent, being overly indulging of the past. Buss family would love this path if it's purely up to them, so that they don't have to pay for front office guys, just draft some one and be patient. it's not how it works anymore, superstar players run the league nowadays, Laker fans should just be glad LeBron CHOSE us when we were dead in the water 3 years ago. home grown talent even as good as Kobe won't win you jack, it takes a collection of super stars to win in today's NBA.


So the Lakers were being cheap and complacent when they outbid Orlando for Shaq and developed homegrown talent Kobe? They had good team planning and construction then, something we lack now.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:17 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
The Pelicans barely made the playoffs with AD, I think that the trade had little effect on the Pelican franchise.


The point was regarding those players. They got several players for one, and landed the #1 pick in the draft. We already saw how those players fit with Lebron. Once the Lakers signed Lebron all the other stuff went out the window, they either had to fit with Lebron and be ready to compete or they had to be moved for people who would. After leaving Ingram and Lonzo both showed improvement, but even with them combined with Zion the Pelicans were still a worse team than before, which was my point.

The Lakers more or less had to make a move that summer after missing the playoffs. And they made a trade that got them a title. It's odd that we have to keep revisiting that decision when they have a contender right now, which they would not have been without that trade.

Don't get me wrong. I love most of those guys. Will always root for them. Only one I'm kind of indifferent on is DLO. I was a big fan though of Ingram, and also (not involved in that trade) of Randle. I liked Lonzo's potential. Hart's defense. And for as much crap as Clarkson got he was an affordable sparkplug off the bench. Nance was a solid player. But the only of those moves I really have any issue with was Randle, because it felt like they let him walk for nothing.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:03 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
SGV-Laker fan wrote:
"home grown" is another name for being cheap, being complacent, being overly indulging of the past. Buss family would love this path if it's purely up to them, so that they don't have to pay for front office guys, just draft some one and be patient. it's not how it works anymore, superstar players run the league nowadays, Laker fans should just be glad LeBron CHOSE us when we were dead in the water 3 years ago. home grown talent even as good as Kobe won't win you jack, it takes a collection of super stars to win in today's NBA.


So the Lakers were being cheap and complacent when they outbid Orlando for Shaq and developed homegrown talent Kobe? They had good team planning and construction then, something we lack now.


Good team planning usually takes patience and time. Shaq-Kobe as good a pairing as that was to build around still took 4 years before they won their first title. With Lebron's advanced age patience and time is thin. It is win now while the championship window is open which requires a different strategy.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:11 am    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
Good team planning usually takes patience and time.


I don't believe in that as a sweeping generalization.

We won a ring two years after getting Lebron. Toronto won a ring immediately after getting Leonard, Gasol, and Green.

It took the Bucks 9 years after drafting Giannis. It took the Warriors 6 years after drafting Curry.

There are a lot of different strategies, and a lot of different potential time frames.

Right now, the Lakers have elected to go with the short-term Lebron approach, where they have remade the team every single year. It's the opposite of taking time and being patient.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:19 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Good team planning usually takes patience and time.


I don't believe in that as a sweeping generalization.

We won a ring two years after getting Lebron. Toronto won a ring immediately after getting Leonard, Gasol, and Green.

It took the Bucks 9 years after drafting Giannis. It took the Warriors 6 years after drafting Curry.

There are a lot of different strategies, and a lot of different potential time frames.

Right now, the Lakers have elected to go with the short-term Lebron approach, where they have remade the team every single year. It's the opposite of taking time and being patient.


I should've been more clear but I was referencing the Shaq-Kobe pairing which was what VLF used as his example with homegrown talent. I also mentioned given Lebron's age a different strategy was required.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:20 am    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
The Pelicans barely made the playoffs with AD, I think that the trade had little effect on the Pelican franchise.


The point was regarding those players. They got several players for one, and landed the #1 pick in the draft. We already saw how those players fit with Lebron. Once the Lakers signed Lebron all the other stuff went out the window, they either had to fit with Lebron and be ready to compete or they had to be moved for people who would. After leaving Ingram and Lonzo both showed improvement, but even with them combined with Zion the Pelicans were still a worse team than before, which was my point.

The Lakers more or less had to make a move that summer after missing the playoffs. And they made a trade that got them a title. It's odd that we have to keep revisiting that decision when they have a contender right now, which they would not have been without that trade.

Don't get me wrong. I love most of those guys. Will always root for them. Only one I'm kind of indifferent on is DLO. I was a big fan though of Ingram, and also (not involved in that trade) of Randle. I liked Lonzo's potential. Hart's defense. And for as much crap as Clarkson got he was an affordable sparkplug off the bench. Nance was a solid player. But the only of those moves I really have any issue with was Randle, because it felt like they let him walk for nothing.


I agree with that point, the players we sent there haven’t moved the needle. AD has been a top 2nd option throughout his career, I don’t see any of the players we sent for him doing that. The only one we lost, who could be a franchise quality player, is Randle. He has really moved the needle in NY. Sad that we got nothing for him.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:26 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
J.C. Smith wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
The Pelicans barely made the playoffs with AD, I think that the trade had little effect on the Pelican franchise.


The point was regarding those players. They got several players for one, and landed the #1 pick in the draft. We already saw how those players fit with Lebron. Once the Lakers signed Lebron all the other stuff went out the window, they either had to fit with Lebron and be ready to compete or they had to be moved for people who would. After leaving Ingram and Lonzo both showed improvement, but even with them combined with Zion the Pelicans were still a worse team than before, which was my point.

The Lakers more or less had to make a move that summer after missing the playoffs. And they made a trade that got them a title. It's odd that we have to keep revisiting that decision when they have a contender right now, which they would not have been without that trade.

Don't get me wrong. I love most of those guys. Will always root for them. Only one I'm kind of indifferent on is DLO. I was a big fan though of Ingram, and also (not involved in that trade) of Randle. I liked Lonzo's potential. Hart's defense. And for as much crap as Clarkson got he was an affordable sparkplug off the bench. Nance was a solid player. But the only of those moves I really have any issue with was Randle, because it felt like they let him walk for nothing.


I agree with that point, the players we sent there haven’t moved the needle. AD has been a top 2nd option throughout his career, I don’t see any of the players we sent for him doing that. The only one we lost, who could be a franchise quality player, is Randle. He has really moved the needle in NY. Sad that we got nothing for him.


But it took 7 years for Randle to become this version of himself and he needed the right coach and system which he may not have been afforded as a Laker. AD being a superstar 2nd option I am fine with. Worked in 2019-2020.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 6:54 pm    Post subject:

BILBJH wrote:
activeverb wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
activeverb wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
We won all of our titles with at least one major homegrown talent until last year.

The five Minneapolis titles were due to Mikan. The 72 title was because of West, and Goodrich and Erickson were part of the legendary Bruins teams.

Showtime's five titles had Magic, Worthy, and Kareem came from UCLA also. A bunch of supporting players were mostly homegrown.
Byron was from SoCal and played most of his career here... Wilkes was UCLA and Lakers... Rambis started here... AC did

Kobe won five titles and Shaq was with us for a long time.

LBJ's frankenteam was the only one that didn't have a major homegrown star.

So those of us who have watched the Lakers for fifty plus years have always had at least one homegrown star to root for.

I don't get why people act like this is normal for Lakers fans... it isn't.

I'm still rooting for this team but it doesn't feel the same as when we grew our own talent.


Since the Showtime era, we had two GOAT-level players who joined the team as rookies, Magic and Kobe, and stayed here a combined 33 years. Those two guys participated in 11 rings.

And when people talk about winning with "homegrown talent," it's primarily Magic and Kobe they're talking about.

The threepeat and two-ring teams didn't really had a lot of significant "homegrown talent" outside of Kobe. No one is pining about Luke Walton and Devean George.

So, yeah we're spoiled. However, if you consider the "normal" situation to be drafting a GOAT-level player like Magic or Kobe who sticks around for 13-plus years, you're likely to disappointed.

It happened for us twice, and it may never happen again. So I just accept that the "normal" you're talking about hasn't existed for almost a decade.


They were still GOAT level players surrounded by great talent.

We had LBJ an open spot and a roster full of young assets and picks.

Instead of using that spot and young assets to our maximum advantage, we traded most of them for AD and cap space we didn't use for Kawhi and now have used it on Westbrook.

All I said is that I prefer the homegrown approach and some of you act like this philosophy won't work when Giannis and Khris just won a title...Toronto won with Siakam and Van Vleet...Golden State won with homegrown talent... Spurs won with homegrown talent

I've never said the kids could win by themselves... I said they could win with LBJ and an open max spot.

Just like Siakam and FVV could win when they added Kawhi...

But sure... keep pressing the false narrative that we couldn't have won when we were positioned just fine before LBJ had other ideas.


So I guess all you're really saying is you wish we hadn't traded Ingram, Ball, and Hart for AD?

You'd prefer to give back the ring and take a flyer with Lebron, the young players we traded, and whatever free agent we could have landed?

That's cool. I suspect there were fans who bemoaned all the young assets we gave up to acquire Kareem and Shaq as well.


We signed Shaq as a free agent. Both Shaq and Kareem are way better than AD in terms of impact on a team. When they joined Orlando and Milwaukee, the teams instantly became winners. When AD joined New Orleans... the record stayed the same.

I'm pretty sure BI, Lonzo, Josh Hart, De'Andre Hunter or Garland, plus three first round picks are going to be a higher price than Dave Meyers, Junior Bridgeman, Elmore Smith and Brian Winters.

If think paying a similar price for Kareem as AD is a good investment... that is your right. Personally, I think we paid too much and that's before even mentioning all the other small pieces we let go along the way for capspace.


Shaq did not immediately win in Orlando. Orlando was 41-41 his rookie year and missed the playoffs. In his second year they were 50-32 and got swept in the first round. It wasn’t until that third year, when they added enough to the roster that they became an elite team.

I don’t see what’s so great about watching young prospects. The Clippers did that for years under Donald Sterling and won zero rings. Like Kobe, I want to win this (bleep) now.

Quote:
All I said is that I prefer the homegrown approach and some of you act like this philosophy won't work when Giannis and Khris just won a title...Toronto won with Siakam and Van Vleet...Golden State won with homegrown talent... Spurs won with homegrown talent


But we never drafted a Giannis or a Duncan or a Steph Curry in the last decade. The Spurs were very fortunate to get Duncan; they could have missed out on getting the #1 pick which changes everything for them, or they could have gotten the #1 pick in a different year and picked a bust instead. And teams like Golden State and Milwaukee needed decades to get those players. You want to go 40 years hoping to get that type of player?

You say we should have higher standards than Toronto, but then you want to copy teams that went over 40 years between rings.

Some teams do draft that superstar player and still never win. Orlando didn’t win with Shaq. OKC never won with Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka, etc. Utah had Stockton and Malone forever and didn’t win.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:13 pm    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
activeverb wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Good team planning usually takes patience and time.


I don't believe in that as a sweeping generalization.

We won a ring two years after getting Lebron. Toronto won a ring immediately after getting Leonard, Gasol, and Green.

It took the Bucks 9 years after drafting Giannis. It took the Warriors 6 years after drafting Curry.

There are a lot of different strategies, and a lot of different potential time frames.

Right now, the Lakers have elected to go with the short-term Lebron approach, where they have remade the team every single year. It's the opposite of taking time and being patient.


I should've been more clear but I was referencing the Shaq-Kobe pairing which was what VLF used as his example with homegrown talent. I also mentioned given Lebron's age a different strategy was required.


That makes sense. But I would question that the Lakers were waiting for Kobe.

When we acquired Shaq, we had Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel, Cedric Ceballos, Robert Horry, and Elden Campbell. We were ready to go for a title then and there. We weren't marinating, hoping Kobe would turn into something.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:22 pm    Post subject:

BILBJH wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Steve007 wrote:

Why? Because of the past? The past is over with, it’s done. Just ask the Celtics and Bulls. Having a great history doesn’t guarantee success in the future, especially if things have changed. No team in the NBA, NFL, MLB or NHL has lived up to your standards. The closest is actually our team.

Only reason we should have high standards right now is the team has Lebron, Davis and Westbrook, and Lebron and Davis have proven they can win a title together.

Even Kobe was in favor of trading young potential, and in that case it was for an old player. He wanted the team to make the Bynum for Kidd deal. As he was saying, “I’m trying to win this (bleep) now.”


It is funny that we went 10 years without a ring, and some fans complain that Lebron coming along and winning one ring would not be enough for them.

Makes me wonder how long of a drought the Lakers would need to go through before the sense of entitlement waned -- 15 years without a ring; 20 years; 30 years; more?


You say we all have said our respective peace and then here you go bumping this thread again.

It's funny how those who are "sick" of the debate are the ones who keep perpetuating it.


You're misinterpreting me: I meant I was bored of you specifically, and thought my exchanges with you specifically had become tiresome and redundant, and had no more desire to hear what you specifically had to say on the topic.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't exchange thoughts with other posters on the topic.

My apologies if that was unclear.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:23 pm    Post subject:

Not a true Laker? Nah, that man was born to be a Laker.

As for Russ, give him time. He has a lot of work to do but he has a chance to earn his Laker stripes. If I stay in the thread long enough I'll probably try to make a case for Dwight and Reaves too
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:37 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
activeverb wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Good team planning usually takes patience and time.


I don't believe in that as a sweeping generalization.

We won a ring two years after getting Lebron. Toronto won a ring immediately after getting Leonard, Gasol, and Green.

It took the Bucks 9 years after drafting Giannis. It took the Warriors 6 years after drafting Curry.

There are a lot of different strategies, and a lot of different potential time frames.

Right now, the Lakers have elected to go with the short-term Lebron approach, where they have remade the team every single year. It's the opposite of taking time and being patient.


I should've been more clear but I was referencing the Shaq-Kobe pairing which was what VLF used as his example with homegrown talent. I also mentioned given Lebron's age a different strategy was required.


That makes sense. But I would question that the Lakers were waiting for Kobe.

When we acquired Shaq, we had Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel, Cedric Ceballos, Robert Horry, and Elden Campbell. We were ready to go for a title then and there. We weren't marinating, hoping Kobe would turn into something.


I try to only address what the other poster has stated and not bleed it into another conversation although if often does.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:40 am    Post subject:

Man, I love the Lakers team with whoever they have on the roster. Now I can debate AMONG the Lakers team, who the favorites, has more homegrown talents and who's more mercenarial, that's cool (Shaq-Kobe 15-1 still my favorite) but yeah, personally, Imma root for any team the Lakers organization put out
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:51 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Man, I love the Lakers team with whoever they have on the roster. Now I can debate AMONG the Lakers team, who the favorites, has more homegrown talents and who's more mercenarial, that's cool (Shaq-Kobe 15-1 still my favorite) but yeah, personally, Imma root for any team the Lakers organization put out

this is the only right answer.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:59 am    Post subject:

The entire thread idea is dumb
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:42 am    Post subject:

I just ride with them when they are here and can sort out the rest later.

Some guys will be here for a hot minute, some guys will stay longer. Some guys will hit a big three in a game 7 against the Celtics and have an epic press conference and that can change everything.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:02 pm    Post subject:

So is Rondo a real Laker, real celtic or both?

Best years of his career were in green but I readily accept him as part of Laker lore. Lakers have treated him well, he made good $'s late in his career, got another championship and who knows maybe a 3rd. If the Lakers hire him after his career is over and he gets into the HOF I wonder what colors he chooses to be inducted in?

Is he worthy of being in the HOF?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:09 pm    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
So is Rondo a real Laker, real celtic or both?

Best years of his career were in green but I readily accept him as part of Laker lore. Lakers have treated him well, he made good $'s late in his career, got another championship and who knows maybe a 3rd. If the Lakers hire him after his career is over and he gets into the HOF I wonder what colors he chooses to be inducted in?

Is he worthy of being in the HOF?


I wouldn't have thought so, but the Hall of Fame metrics say otherwise.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:13 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Steve007 wrote:

Why? Because of the past? The past is over with, it’s done. Just ask the Celtics and Bulls. Having a great history doesn’t guarantee success in the future, especially if things have changed. No team in the NBA, NFL, MLB or NHL has lived up to your standards. The closest is actually our team.

Only reason we should have high standards right now is the team has Lebron, Davis and Westbrook, and Lebron and Davis have proven they can win a title together.

Even Kobe was in favor of trading young potential, and in that case it was for an old player. He wanted the team to make the Bynum for Kidd deal. As he was saying, “I’m trying to win this (bleep) now.”


It is funny that we went 10 years without a ring, and some fans complain that Lebron coming along and winning one ring would not be enough for them.

Makes me wonder how long of a drought the Lakers would need to go through before the sense of entitlement waned -- 15 years without a ring; 20 years; 30 years; more?


You say we all have said our respective peace and then here you go bumping this thread again.

It's funny how those who are "sick" of the debate are the ones who keep perpetuating it.


You're misinterpreting me: I meant I was bored of you specifically, and thought my exchanges with you specifically had become tiresome and redundant, and had no more desire to hear what you specifically had to say on the topic.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't exchange thoughts with other posters on the topic.

My apologies if that was unclear.


As long as I have to listen to your tiresome opinions, I suppose you will be cursed to have to listen to mine.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:27 am    Post subject:

Crowd chants "Melo," so we claim Carmelo Anthony as a Laker
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:47 am    Post subject:

How do you define a "real Laker"? Seems arbitrary
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:54 am    Post subject:

When Karl Malone put on a Lakers jersey, he was literally a "real Laker." When he took that jersey off, I did not consider him amongst the pantheon of "real Lakers."

Just look to the rafters at how many non-home grown/drafted Lakers greats are immortalized. Wilt, KAJ, Shaq, Wilkes, and soon to be Pau. I'd imagine that LBJ and AD likely will be up there, alongside Reaves of course.
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