Article: Alex Caruso leaving tells a lot about the Lakers
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Iandrewd
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:40 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
I have yet to read a plan where the Lakers mantain the talent they had last year that was clearly what Vogel needed to sustain defensive impact, but at the same time address the following holes/needs:

1) PG when Bron is injured/resting etc (Dennis was leaving for sure)
2) 3 point shooting
3) Third option.

For me it seems it's a lot of well this is horse (bleep), last year we weren't good enough to win a title, but at least we were better than this crap.

Yes, totally agree. This is horse (bleep) at times. I'm not disputing that. I just dispute how keeping everyone together = ring this year. Lebron still misses 60% and we're right now talking about how we need to trade for a 3rd option or point guard.....lets all be real. If we keep Caruso, KCP, Kuz etc. we just enjoy the team more. I don't think our record is much better than 9-6 at best, assuming everyone else (role guys) played as well as they can be (not a given as they are playing with a chip on their shoulder that they didn't play with as Lakers).

Even with an elite D, the record with the team around AD was .500 over 2 years, actually I think sub .500, with no Bron, only role guys and AD. This should be considered. And let me be very clear, I would have signed Alex Caruso, and I was not for the WB trade.


All I can say is that this horse (bleep) is pretty bad and I don't see how having Buddy Hield AND Caruso on the team wouldn't solve more problems than it creates compared to signing Westbrook and being forced to bring in minimum salary guys. Yes, Hield and Caruso don't fix the PG issue but they certainly address the shooting and defense issue while Westbrook only addresses the PG issue while worsening the shooting and defensive issues.

I think we're seeing what everyone was concerned about playing out right now. The only reason they brought in Westbrook and cratered the rest of the roster was to help Lebron, and Westbrook is NOT holding up his end of the bargain.
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ahaider
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:31 pm    Post subject:

Iandrewd wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
I have yet to read a plan where the Lakers mantain the talent they had last year that was clearly what Vogel needed to sustain defensive impact, but at the same time address the following holes/needs:

1) PG when Bron is injured/resting etc (Dennis was leaving for sure)
2) 3 point shooting
3) Third option.

For me it seems it's a lot of well this is horse (bleep), last year we weren't good enough to win a title, but at least we were better than this crap.

Yes, totally agree. This is horse (bleep) at times. I'm not disputing that. I just dispute how keeping everyone together = ring this year. Lebron still misses 60% and we're right now talking about how we need to trade for a 3rd option or point guard.....lets all be real. If we keep Caruso, KCP, Kuz etc. we just enjoy the team more. I don't think our record is much better than 9-6 at best, assuming everyone else (role guys) played as well as they can be (not a given as they are playing with a chip on their shoulder that they didn't play with as Lakers).

Even with an elite D, the record with the team around AD was .500 over 2 years, actually I think sub .500, with no Bron, only role guys and AD. This should be considered. And let me be very clear, I would have signed Alex Caruso, and I was not for the WB trade.


All I can say is that this horse (bleep) is pretty bad and I don't see how having Buddy Hield AND Caruso on the team wouldn't solve more problems than it creates compared to signing Westbrook and being forced to bring in minimum salary guys. Yes, Hield and Caruso don't fix the PG issue but they certainly address the shooting and defense issue while Westbrook only addresses the PG issue while worsening the shooting and defensive issues.

I think we're seeing what everyone was concerned about playing out right now. The only reason they brought in Westbrook and cratered the rest of the roster was to help Lebron, and Westbrook is NOT holding up his end of the bargain.


How does each thread devolve into a Westbrook buyer remorse thread?

I just went to that game and watched Caruso put up 0. I sat pretty damn close to the action. Caruso played a ton in that game and he benefits from the defensive prowess of Lavine & Lonzo.

I would have kept Caruso but none of us have any visibility into their company finances. Hell, I went to that game specifically to see him. I don’t want to suggest I wouldn’t want him back but there are plenty of reasons to blame the team for a lack of success.

Specifically to that game AD had no counter to the traps. Coaching staff had no adjustments specifically offensively to that game plan for the last 3 years. We can moan about defense all year but when the only guy who got to the basket and brought us back to striking distance was Westbrook, it begs the question of whether people even watched the game.

Derozan tore up Melo when he guarded him and Lavine was eating on THT. All of this gets lost on this subject.

I’m mad we didn’t keep Caruso, GP II or even sign Kenny Atkinson as an offensive consultant.

My order of operations of blame is front office & coaching staff. Fizdale over Kenny Atkinson was a joke. He’s literally the secret behind the warrior’s 3rd quarter success and adjustments. We make literally no adjustments.
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ContagiousInspiration
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:47 pm    Post subject:

How much of this
Had to get rid of Caruso
Had to get Westbrook

Is due to/was caused by Schroeder?


Last edited by ContagiousInspiration on Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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lakersfever714
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:01 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
They let Alex Caruso go to free up minutes for Talen Horton Tucker.


They could have enough minutes for both. Mind blown.


AC and THT both peacefully co-existed and shared minutes during out championship run. Losing AC is as ridiculous as losing JR or Zubac. I know JR and Zubac were under a different GM. Even though we've replaced the GM, the stupidity is still there. Who hired these GM? The owner! Maybe it's time to replace the owner.
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:37 am    Post subject:

Quote:

All I can say is that this horse (bleep) is pretty bad and I don't see how having Buddy Hield AND Caruso on the team wouldn't solve more problems than it creates compared to signing Westbrook and being forced to bring in minimum salary guys. Yes, Hield and Caruso don't fix the PG issue but they certainly address the shooting and defense issue while Westbrook only addresses the PG issue while worsening the shooting and defensive issues.

As I said, Caruso/Hield, would give the Lakers more chemistry, but they would still deal with multiple issues. #1 AD/Bron health. When is the last time both have been healthy for a significant time together? #2 Caruso/Hield gives the Lakers no point guard creator when Bron is injured. In Chicago they have Ball and LaVine. #3 THT would be a 3 full time, and I think we want to get THT at the 2. #4 This sort of lineup forces Bron to be a PG full time again. Last year we saw a lot of teams pressuring Caruso on the ball and he could not start the offense early enough. We were also struggling with Caruso/Dennis on offense. we just played so well on D it covered for those weaknesses.

Look I completely agree Lakers title team balance > present. But the situations and ages of the stars are different as well. IE Bron/AD no where near the same level of health and impact. Yes I agree that Hield/Caruso likely better than what there is right now, but it's not a difference of being 1st in the West and 7th/8th. With Bron missing 70% of the season, I think the difference is being between 6th and 8th. A little better, not a lot better.


Quote:
I think we're seeing what everyone was concerned about playing out right now. The only reason they brought in Westbrook and cratered the rest of the roster was to help Lebron, and Westbrook is NOT holding up his end of the bargain.

Partially I agree. Yes we are seeing exactly the warts of WB. I didn't really want the trade. I would probably move WB for a wing, even an overpaid one or a headcase like Simmons at this point. It won't be easy, but I would do it. But to the second part, I disagree. WB is doing his part. He's taken over all of the PG duties and has carried the team's offense from the outside in the previous Lebron role. Lebron has missed 70% of the games, and is taking his sweet time. This wouldn't be the case if his teammates were Danny Green/KCP, IMO. How WB is letting the team down is not getting the wins. We're winning at .400 level with AD/WB. So yeah while Westbrook is playing the role he was supposed to play when Bron is out, he's just not doing it well enough where there are wins.

However the blame can go around to all. Is AD playing at the MVP/DPOTY level of 2 years ago? Nah. He's doing really good, 24/11/3. He's an all-star. Not a MVP. How about our role players? They've been inconsistent as well, and pretty bad on D. What about Dwight? Even Dwight, seems he's not playing with the same fire he had last time he was a Laker. He's not finishing as strong around the rim, from what I've seen. So to be fair to WB, I think this is a team thing, not just a WB thing. Everyone seems to be playing a little worse than they should be. Aside from THT's 3 games, which are only 3, but that kid looks like a great pick.
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scout_0
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:34 am    Post subject:

Sure tells a lot... they kept THT who is averaging 23ppg over his last 3 games

Nunn is better than Caruso ....

Caruso couldn't defend bigger wings and without other ball handlers and creators the offense falls apart under him.


We did what had to be done.
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RusselDoeee01
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:38 am    Post subject:

scout_0 wrote:
Sure tells a lot... they kept THT who is averaging 23ppg over his last 3 games

Nunn is better than Caruso ....

Caruso couldn't defend bigger wings and without other ball handlers and creators the offense falls apart under him.


We did what had to be done.


Agreed.. Caruso is a solid player no doubt but he was a liability on the offensive end of the court and a bit overrated on defense..
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:59 am    Post subject:

Sigh…we’ve been over this.

THT and AC both could have been here. And if an option came up at the deadline that was an absolute must have, we can use AC’s deal to get that type of deal done.

As of right now our only practical salary assets are THT/Nunn. Swap out THT’s 9.5m deal with AC’s 8.6m and we can still pull off a deal requiring that type of salary aggregation.

It’s not really hard to understand. Asset.management!
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:40 pm    Post subject:

vasashi17+ wrote:
Sigh…we’ve been over this.

THT and AC both could have been here. And if an option came up at the deadline that was an absolute must have, we can use AC’s deal to get that type of deal done.

As of right now our only practical salary assets are THT/Nunn. Swap out THT’s 9.5m deal with AC’s 8.6m and we can still pull off a deal requiring that type of salary aggregation.

It’s not really hard to understand. Asset.management!


I might be wrong but wouldn't Caruso come with a TAX penalty?

It's easy to make decisions when the money is not coming out of your pockets
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:45 pm    Post subject:

Lakers have always been cheap for all but the superstars. Imagine if they kept Horry. Could have meant another championship. Malone and Payton took the exceptions Lakers could have kept Horry but didn't.
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J.C. Smith
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:09 am    Post subject:

I think the thing with Caruso is just that he was a home grown fan favorite. And he also had great +/- numbers during his stints, had a knack for making defensive plays at key moments. But people lost sense along the way of what he actually was. Yeah it was funny to hear the announcers compare him to Jordan. It was funny to have the name the Bald Eagle, and somewhere along the way he turned into a pretty good player.

Is he a $9-10m a year player though? He's getting starter minutes now. Still playing good defense and putting up: 7.8/4.3/3.7 along with 2.5 steals. Shooting 42.9% from the field and a more down to earth 32.5% from three. By the numbers he's not, but it's difficult to represent defense in numbers and he's a good defender. They also don't quite represent the fact that he struggled dealing with ball pressure. Was a reluctant offensive player, and while he shot a good percentage on three last season they were all wide open threes.

From the Lakers standpoint I felt THT over Caruso was a no brainer, even if it set off a lot of fans. THT has potential where Caruso was who he was. But how about in relation to the other players who came in for the money?

Caruso makes $8.6m this season and that number will go up by $400k for each of the next four seasons. I don't think that's a terrible contract but it was more than they were willing to pay. And it's easy to see their logic when they have Melo, Dwight, Ellington, Bradley, Rondo, and Jordan at $2.6m. Bazemore at $2.4m and Monk at $1.7m. Reaves at $925k. They could take any three of those guys + Reaves for Caruso's salary this season.

I wish they had found a way to keep him there. I don't think Westbrook is a great fit. But that was the move they decided on and once that decision was made Caruso had the choice of playing for the Lakers for less money or going elsewhere. He made the decision to leave. I don't blame him for making that decision, he would have sacrificed a lot of money to stay. I don't blame the Lakers either though because I feel that he did get overpaid.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:39 am    Post subject:

Caruso vs THT is false narrative. Even with a cheap ownership, the mistake was to bring Westbrook's toxic contract for KCP, Harrell, Kuzma a 1st round pick and rejecting Caruso because of Westbrook's contract.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:09 am    Post subject:

If there's one thing I've learned about successful teams in the past two decades, it's that it's insanely difficult to replace championship-tier defense and valuable role players (Fisher, Horry, KCP, AC, Dwight, etc), especially when offensive/one-way talent is a dime a dozen in the league. With Caruso, KCP and Kuz gone, it's not surprising the Wizards and Bulls are among the two best teams in the East. I'm happy for those dudes, and they genuinely seem to be having fun.

Pelinka's done a decent job, but I was skeptical the current roster would have any semblance of defensive continuity or chemistry without AC and KCP. THT's emergence is nice to see and shows the importance of having a youth movement, but it's not enough. They need some more high flyers who can defend.
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JUST-MING
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:29 am    Post subject:

I thought Rajon Rondo and Dwight Howard were our "championship-tier" role players. We had those other guys last year and still lost in the first round.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:37 am    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
I thought Rajon Rondo and Dwight Howard were our "championship-tier" role players. We had those other guys last year and still lost in the first round.

We were winning the series until AD got injured.
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JUST-MING
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:38 am    Post subject:

We lost that series in blowout fashion
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:44 am    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
We lost that series in blowout fashion

Since AD got injured, yes. Until that moment we were winning the series 2-1 as well as the game.
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:12 am    Post subject:

SPO200 wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
I thought Rajon Rondo and Dwight Howard were our "championship-tier" role players. We had those other guys last year and still lost in the first round.

We were winning the series until AD got injured.

AD being healthy for an entire playoff run may no longer be a given. It may be an "outlier". Considering Bron's age. The WB/Bron chemistry may be the most important thing. That is why I am patient. We have seen WB/AD. It doesn't look better than sub par. However we have not seen what WB/Bron look like for more than 6 games (and the last 3 were quite good). Obviously AD is in there as well. But what having WB/Bron gives you is a lot different than what we have ever had. Remains to be seen if it works.

If you ask me get role players or a HOF talent. I take the HOF talent still in athletic prime. I just don't think we have given this enough time at all to be so upset with Pelinka, Klutch, Bron etc for making this move.
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ingle
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:15 am    Post subject:

Letting Caruso go is looking like a mistake and you can only blame it on the FO's ego

They thought they could replace Caruso in the same manner they initially got him in (through G-league), but right now we are seeing the effects - it simply just doesnt happen that quickly, even Caruso himself spent about 3 seasons developing before he was at a championship level role player.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:33 am    Post subject:

Whether you think Caruso is NBA defensive team player or not, he was the best defensive player we could have had due to our lack of cap space. He also has great chemistry with LBJ offensively that might not show on the stat sheet. Bringing him back would make a net positive impact, there shouldn't be any argument about it
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