Pelinka's handling of our youth VS Jerry West's moves after Lakers signed Shaq in 1996
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:55 pm    Post subject: Pelinka's handling of our youth VS Jerry West's moves after Lakers signed Shaq in 1996

which one's worse?

1. Jerry traded away Eddie Jones, Nick Van Excel for peanuts

OR

2. Pelinka's moves in recent years
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:16 pm    Post subject:

I can't tell if this thread is serious, but Rob by far.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:27 pm    Post subject:

Nick quit on his team during the series with Utah. Was the trade rushed? Maybe. But sounds like it was damage control

Eddie was traded for a better fit : G Rice who a few years later was flipped for H Grant


Kuz Trezz and Kcp, even if they weren’t the FOs long term solution, could’ve been flipped for better assets than Russ …

Deandre, Rondo and Bazemore were just baffling signings
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:30 pm    Post subject:

Jerry's moves were made so a young Kobe can blossom which can get us into championship contention.

Rob's moves were made to bring in a known net negative player, replacing proven championship pieces.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Pelinka's handling of our youth VS Jerry West's moves after Lakers signed Shaq in 1996

SGV-Laker fan wrote:
which one's worse?

1. Jerry traded away Eddie Jones, Nick Van Excel for peanuts

OR

2. Pelinka's moves in recent years


Jerry made some bad trades.

He over-reacted about Nick Van Exel. He didn't think Jones and Kobe could co-exist, so he got rid of Jones, and they probably would have fit together nicely.

Having a young Shaq and Kobe covered up some of the miscues.

*

I won't go into Pelinka's moves; others can beat that dead horse.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:15 pm    Post subject:

Another thread about our “youth”
Jerry west had to move them so Kobe could grow into the player he was and win a championship and getting Glenn rice speed up that process.
rob traded for AD so we could win a championship

KCP/Trezz are not youth,
Kuz is 26 already

You can talk about the baze, rondo, DAJ signing are horrible ones and I agree
At the same time, of course you are going to ignore the monk/Reaves/ Kieff signings.

Rob is who he is, a company guy who makes little decisions. Big ones always come from Jeanie or Klutch.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:03 pm    Post subject:

When you're in "win now" mode you're inevitability going to trade some young prospects for proven vets.

JW did the same thing when he traded Eddie Jones for an over-the-hill Glen Rice, who didn't fit in the triangle offense, who was then traded for a Horace Grant who had his last serviceable year with us.

There has to be a balance between keeping young players and developing them, a la Golden State the last couple years, and trading some of them for proven vets who will help you win now, a la trading for AD.

Doing the latter isn't necessarily wrong as you long as you trade for the right guys who aren't old.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:10 pm    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
When you're in "win now" mode you're inevitability going to trade some young prospects for proven vets.


The Jones and Van Exel trades weren't a case of trading young prospects for proven veterans. They were traded for character and fit reasons.

When Van Exel was traded, he was a 5-year veteran who was coming off making an all-star team.

Eddie was in his 5th year, and had just made two all-star teams.

Both of them had moved beyond being prospects.

Van Exel was traded because the Lakers were worried about his character. Eddie was traded because the Lakers didn't think he and Kobe couldn't play together, and they traded him for a guy (Rice) who they they considered
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:22 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
slavavov wrote:
When you're in "win now" mode you're inevitability going to trade some young prospects for proven vets.


The Jones and Van Exel trades weren't a case of trading young prospects for proven veterans. They were traded for character and fit reasons.

When Van Exel was traded, he was a 5-year veteran who was coming off making an all-star team.

Eddie was in his 5th year, and had just made two all-star teams.

Both of them had moved beyond being prospects.

Van Exel was traded because the Lakers were worried about his character. Eddie was traded because the Lakers didn't think he and Kobe couldn't play together, and they traded him for a guy (Rice) who they they considered

You're right about the Van Exel trade, but the Jones trade was both about fit and getting a proven vet (Rice) who turned out to be in decline.

From what I've read the Lakers were targeting Rice for a while, or at least a sniper like him, and it allowed them to kill two birds with one stone - clear the way for Kobe while getting a guy who they thought would give them elite 3-point shooting.


Last edited by slavavov on Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Pelinka's handling of our youth VS Jerry West's moves after Lakers signed Shaq in 1996

Elden was also a valuable part of the team moved in the Jones trade to save cash. He wasn't an all-star but he was a solid role player who could step it up when Shaq went down.

It's a far different league though right now. Free agency is way more prevalent. Back in those days you could lock guys up for 7 years. You didn't need to worry about serious repeater luxury tax penalties.

The realty is the Lakers built this team with merry minimums around AD and Lebron when they won the title. It wasn't that they didn't want a third star. They went all in for Kawhi that summer and lost out. Then rounded out with what they could.

The problem with those one year contracts, and then guys winning a title is they could just bolt. Bradley wanted more money and left. Dwight left by his own choice after they signed Trez, they wanted to bring him back. Green was getting death threats, and Lakers fans wanted him moved. Javele was moved to bring in Gasol. He had barely played in the playoffs the previous season.

Now if you listen to angry fans with revisionist history the Lakers disbanded a title team. The only two players who were traded there were Green (for Schroder) and Javele (to bring in Gasol). Dwight and Bradley left of their own free will. They were free agents and that is their choice.

This summer they did make some aggressive moves this summer, which have not worked out. That's a different situation than the season before though. The biggest thing is Westbrook which apparently Lebron and AD pushed for. I don't know what Rob was really supposed to do there. You have a first round exit and your two stars push for a change. He could say no and risk having disgruntled stars. It's not an easy situation though.

I think a lot of people are angry who picked THT over Caruso, but I think most GMs in the league would have done the same. Caruso was overpaid. THT was a young asset with upside.

I think the root of it all though is the Westbrook trade and the Lakers unwillingness to pay above a certain point in luxury tax. That limit is imposed by Jeanie. Nunn was a bargain signing but unfortunately he hasn't played a minute yet this year. After that they were rounding it out with minimums and honestly with what was on the market what were the better options than Monk, Dwight and Melo? Then adding Ellington for some shooting.

The bottom line is Pelinka has to work within constraints of his situation. Like it or not Klutch has power. Jeanie will not spend above a certain point. It is what it is.

The Randle move predated him. I'd trade Lonzo, BI, and Hart for AD any day of the week. That move got them a title. Caruso is missed, but it was THT or Alex unfortunately due to the Lakers not wanting to spend more money. Kuzma was going to be moved after another dismal playoffs. That was a given.


Last edited by J.C. Smith on Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:31 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
slavavov wrote:
When you're in "win now" mode you're inevitability going to trade some young prospects for proven vets.


The Jones and Van Exel trades weren't a case of trading young prospects for proven veterans. They were traded for character and fit reasons.

When Van Exel was traded, he was a 5-year veteran who was coming off making an all-star team.

Eddie was in his 5th year, and had just made two all-star teams.

Both of them had moved beyond being prospects.

Van Exel was traded because the Lakers were worried about his character. Eddie was traded because the Lakers didn't think he and Kobe couldn't play together, and they traded him for a guy (Rice) who they they considered


I don't think many Laker fans liked the trade at the time, but would Kobe have developed into the player he was with them still on the roster? Kobe was just on another level compared to Van Exel or Eddie Jones. I mean the Lakers would've definitely had a much deeper roster going forward but thats a what if question if there ever was one.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:33 pm    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
I don't think many Laker fans liked the trade at the time, but would Kobe have developed into the player he was with them still on the roster? Kobe was just on another level compared to Van Exel or Eddie Jones. I mean the Lakers would've definitely had a much deeper roster going forward but thats a what if question if there ever was one.


Kobe and Eddie could have co-existed though. Eddie knew Kobe since he was in high school. Those two together in their primes would have been so good defensively in Kobe's prime. Eddie was an all-defensive player as well.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:40 pm    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
I don't think many Laker fans liked the trade at the time, but would Kobe have developed into the player he was with them still on the roster? Kobe was just on another level compared to Van Exel or Eddie Jones. I mean the Lakers would've definitely had a much deeper roster going forward but thats a what if question if there ever was one.


Kobe and Eddie could have co-existed though. Eddie knew Kobe since he was in high school. Those two together in their primes would have been so good defensively in Kobe's prime. Eddie was an all-defensive player as well.

I've always wondered what that would've looked like. If Eddie would've been cool with being our 6th man, we could've had lineups with both of them on the floor.

One of the biggest weaknesses of the 3-peat team was that they lacked athleticism and played at a super slow pace. They also got older and thinner with each passing season.

Maybe if we had kept Eddie we would've still had some legit depth and youth after 2002.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:44 pm    Post subject:

Would do both again 100 out of 100 times.
Both turned into NBA titles…
That’s all that matters..
So bravo to both West and Pelinka for bringing titles to Los Angeles
Some Laker fans continue to cry for the players that have left over the years but it’s the titles that count…
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:15 pm    Post subject:

anth2000 wrote:
Would do both again 100 out of 100 times.
Both turned into NBA titles…
That’s all that matters..
So bravo to both West and Pelinka for bringing titles to Los Angeles
Some Laker fans continue to cry for the players that have left over the years but it’s the titles that count…


Such a simplistic way of looking at things. If you think giving up 2 all star players for Tyronn Lue by the start of the 2001-2002 season is good asset management, then you are a simplistic fool who only looks at the result and not the process. Ever wonder why we got so badly exposed by the 2003 playoffs????? Its called lack of talent around Shaq and Kobe

Ironically 2003 was also the year Nick Van Exel decided to go off on the playoffs and pulled a 1995 series vs Supersonics against the Sacramento Kings and averaged around 18 PPG vs the Spurs albeit on lower efficiency. Could we have used additional firepower vs the Spurs in 2003???? Well no (bleep) thats why we lost.

Pelinka's moves I understand more. As if getting rid of guys like Shaqtin McGee who was badly exposed in the playoffs and Danny Green (who Laker fans were overjoyed to get rid of) would have saved Lakers playoff hopes. The Dwight move did piss me off but the 76ers version of Dwight was not saving the Lakers last year.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:19 pm    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
I don't think many Laker fans liked the trade at the time, but would Kobe have developed into the player he was with them still on the roster? Kobe was just on another level compared to Van Exel or Eddie Jones. I mean the Lakers would've definitely had a much deeper roster going forward but thats a what if question if there ever was one.


Kobe and Eddie could have co-existed though. Eddie knew Kobe since he was in high school. Those two together in their primes would have been so good defensively in Kobe's prime. Eddie was an all-defensive player as well.


Dr. Buss wouldn’t have paid both.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:22 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
J.C. Smith wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
I don't think many Laker fans liked the trade at the time, but would Kobe have developed into the player he was with them still on the roster? Kobe was just on another level compared to Van Exel or Eddie Jones. I mean the Lakers would've definitely had a much deeper roster going forward but thats a what if question if there ever was one.


Kobe and Eddie could have co-existed though. Eddie knew Kobe since he was in high school. Those two together in their primes would have been so good defensively in Kobe's prime. Eddie was an all-defensive player as well.


Dr. Buss wouldn’t have paid both.


We needed to acquire Jason Williams out of Florida in that 1998 draft like we intended to for Van Exel - massively popular player who if we were lucky we could have swapped and acquired Mike Bibby and if Chris Webber pushed harder for a Laker trade after he found out he was going to Sacramento and we flipped Eddie and Elden for Webber.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:57 pm    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
activeverb wrote:
slavavov wrote:
When you're in "win now" mode you're inevitability going to trade some young prospects for proven vets.


The Jones and Van Exel trades weren't a case of trading young prospects for proven veterans. They were traded for character and fit reasons.

When Van Exel was traded, he was a 5-year veteran who was coming off making an all-star team.

Eddie was in his 5th year, and had just made two all-star teams.

Both of them had moved beyond being prospects.

Van Exel was traded because the Lakers were worried about his character. Eddie was traded because the Lakers didn't think he and Kobe couldn't play together, and they traded him for a guy (Rice) who they they considered

You're right about the Van Exel trade, but the Jones trade was both about fit and getting a proven vet (Rice) who turned out to be in decline.

From what I've read the Lakers were targeting Rice for a while, or at least a sniper like him, and it allowed them to kill two birds with one stone - clear the way for Kobe while getting a guy who they thought would give them elite 3-point shooting.


The Lakers did want to pair a sniper with Shaq.

The problem was that Rice didn't fit well into Jackson's triangle formula. Rice was used to having the offense built around him, and triangle worked against his game. He felt frustrated and disrespected from the moment he got here.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:59 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
J.C. Smith wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
I don't think many Laker fans liked the trade at the time, but would Kobe have developed into the player he was with them still on the roster? Kobe was just on another level compared to Van Exel or Eddie Jones. I mean the Lakers would've definitely had a much deeper roster going forward but thats a what if question if there ever was one.


Kobe and Eddie could have co-existed though. Eddie knew Kobe since he was in high school. Those two together in their primes would have been so good defensively in Kobe's prime. Eddie was an all-defensive player as well.


Dr. Buss wouldn’t have paid both.


Who knows? We traded Eddie for Rice, who made a big salary for the time.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:08 am    Post subject:

The best young players already on the team pre-Shaq were.

C Vlade Divac
PF/CCampbell
SF/PF Ceballos
SG/SFEddie Jones
PG Nick Van Excel

We also had Anthony Peeler and George Lynch IIRC as wings. We needed to make some cap space moves.

We made some, and made that brilliant Divac cap clearing move that also landed Kobe. You just can't make a better move than that. 2 for 1. Get cap to sign Shaq, and then draft a future top 5 all time player in Kobe. This was the greatest 1 move in league history by Jerry West.

But the rest, come on. We didn't anything too different. We lost all the assets around Shaq/Kobe for veteran players.

With Pelinka, he used the assets to attain AD. Huge win. Immediately paid off. Then perhaps the biggest mistake that will go down on his resume, is using the rest of his assets to get WB. This will be a huge mistake on his resume, unless WB somehow salvages his play in the playoffs or that we move WB in a deal that helps us in the end (Sort of Mitch changed his resume by making the Kwame/2 picks/Marc Gasol for Pau Gasol deal).
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:21 am    Post subject:

Getting rid of Eddie was obviously a mistake in hindsight but it was easy to see why they did it. It was Glen-freakin-Rice who could drop 25 a night and was arguably the best shooter in the L at the time. Is there a better theoretical fit around Shaq and Kobe in that era? I'm not sure you could rely on Kobe to play SF regularly. Even at SG he was picked on regularly by more physical guards. Eddie had also already developed a reputation as a playoff choker.

I loved that Elden could fill in for Shaq because he seemed so injury prone at the time but that was always going to be diminished once you go deep into the playoffs. Don't forget that we also got JR Reid in the deal who was averaging 15/7/52% that you could plug in next to Shaq unlike Elden.

I think it made a lot of sense at the time because we traded redundancy for much better theoretical fits.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:16 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
The best young players already on the team pre-Shaq were.

C Vlade Divac
PF/CCampbell
SF/PF Ceballos
SG/SFEddie Jones
PG Nick Van Excel

We also had Anthony Peeler and George Lynch IIRC as wings. We needed to make some cap space moves.

We made some, and made that brilliant Divac cap clearing move that also landed Kobe. You just can't make a better move than that. 2 for 1. Get cap to sign Shaq, and then draft a future top 5 all time player in Kobe. This was the greatest 1 move in league history by Jerry West.

But the rest, come on. We didn't anything too different. We lost all the assets around Shaq/Kobe for veteran players.

With Pelinka, he used the assets to attain AD. Huge win. Immediately paid off. Then perhaps the biggest mistake that will go down on his resume, is using the rest of his assets to get WB. This will be a huge mistake on his resume, unless WB somehow salvages his play in the playoffs or that we move WB in a deal that helps us in the end (Sort of Mitch changed his resume by making the Kwame/2 picks/Marc Gasol for Pau Gasol deal).


West made one more brilliant move: the Ceballos for Horry trade. Ced was possibly the worst possible fit within a Shaq-centered team whereas Horry was an ideal fit - A genius-level help defender and decent/willing man defender who spaced the floor. For the Suns, Cedric Ceballos made a lot of sense as well to run with Kidd/KJ in the open floor and a guy that can create for himself as well as get buckets out of garbage plays with nobody to really clog up the interior.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:23 am    Post subject:

gng930 wrote:
Getting rid of Eddie was obviously a mistake in hindsight but it was easy to see why they did it. It was Glen-freakin-Rice who could drop 25 a night and was arguably the best shooter in the L at the time. Is there a better theoretical fit around Shaq and Kobe in that era? I'm not sure you could rely on Kobe to play SF regularly. Even at SG he was picked on regularly by more physical guards. Eddie had also already developed a reputation as a playoff choker.

I loved that Elden could fill in for Shaq because he seemed so injury prone at the time but that was always going to be diminished once you go deep into the playoffs. Don't forget that we also got JR Reid in the deal who was averaging 15/7/52% that you could plug in next to Shaq unlike Elden.

I think it made a lot of sense at the time because we traded redundancy for much better theoretical fits.


It did make a lot of sense at the time. The other guy we could have gotten Gugliotta would shortly have his body betray him. Its a shame we couldnt get Petrie to hand us Webber/J-Will because thats the package I would have happily taken to lose Van Exel/Jones/Campbell not that J-Will is a winning player but to have the opportunity to later upgrade him with Bibby????
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:06 pm    Post subject:

West’s big moves (Shaq and Kobe) propelled the team to 5 NBA titles.

Rob brought in a lot of past their prime vets to go alongside Bron and AD and we won a chip, but right now things aren’t looking so hot for the long haul. The old guys are doing what old guys do…breaking down, can’t stay on the floor. It was worth it even if this group doesn’t win another title but it bears no resemblance to West’s haul in 1996.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:16 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
J.C. Smith wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
I don't think many Laker fans liked the trade at the time, but would Kobe have developed into the player he was with them still on the roster? Kobe was just on another level compared to Van Exel or Eddie Jones. I mean the Lakers would've definitely had a much deeper roster going forward but thats a what if question if there ever was one.


Kobe and Eddie could have co-existed though. Eddie knew Kobe since he was in high school. Those two together in their primes would have been so good defensively in Kobe's prime. Eddie was an all-defensive player as well.


Dr. Buss wouldn’t have paid both.


Who knows? We traded Eddie for Rice, who made a big salary for the time.


Money was the motive for getting rid of Eddie and NVE.

Both were getting ready to get paid. We dealt Eddie & Elden for Rice & JR Smith, then got rid of Rice & Smith for shorter, cheaper deals.

NVE's "Cancun" comments didn't help, but he was ticketed to exit, as well, because of his contract.
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