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| Did we make the right move by getting Kwame? |
| Yes. He was put it a tough situation in D.C. He is gonna get better. |
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59% |
[ 164 ] |
| Maybe, At least we didn't give up a first round pick. |
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32% |
[ 88 ] |
| No, This guy is no good. |
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8% |
[ 23 ] |
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| Total Votes : 275 |
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Lakerfan1-Iceland
Sixth Man
Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 60
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 Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:17 pm Post subject: n |
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Thats true i guess.
The thing is though with me i have been waiting for Lamar too become a special player since he first came too the L and with him it seems allways too be something.
I was more keen on the idea of trading Odom and keeping Butler as the starting SF.
Here are my reasons.
I think Caron is a harder worker.
Is willing too do more both on the floor of games and in practises.
I think he can become a better teammate of Kobe than Odom will.
In my mind Caron could have become a helluva second option behind Kobe.
Of course now he is gone so i will keep on rooting for Odom and hopin for him too become special!
He has a LOT more natural talent and game understanding than Caron has.
Sorry my english isnt the greatest |
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RG73
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2001
Posts: 11508
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| elbonian wrote: | Kwame does not have the mental makeup to be a great player. Hopefully he will develop to be a solid starter type.
The guy is mentally soft. MJ rode his arse and what did he do? Did he stand up to prove MJ wrong? Or did he crawl up in the fetal position? |
Did you read the article or do you just like throwing out unfounded opinions?
Kid was beat by his dad. Then he comes into the NBA and is mentally beat by Jordan. You don't abuse an abuse victim, that is psyche 101. Wizards ought to have done their homework about his background--and if they thought they couldn't handle him with kid gloves, or could not be patient enough to bring him up on his own time, they ought to have passed.
Yeah, basketball is a man's game, and its tough world, blah, blah. Lets cut the machismo b.s. If you've got a history of being abused by your father figures, chances are you're going to be mentally fragile. This doesn't make you soft, or a throw away human being. It means you've got some issues and they need to be dealt with. You can be a productive person and even succeed--you've just got to be put in the right conditions to do so. He doesn't need to be the toughest guy in the league, the hardest, the ballsiest--Kobe got enough of that to make up for ten people. And it isn't the kid has no heart--he's got too much.
Its hard to be a man when you've been beat down by men your whole life--some guys can develop under those circumstances. Good for them. Some guys need some encouragement--the kid deserves a second chance, and he'll come around. Phil knows just how to deal with fragile egos--he's going to build the kid up and give him confidence before he starts to break him down and toughen him up. That's all he needs--thankfully Phil is more intelligent and understands human nature better than most people on this board. He's obviously someone who has made his own mistakes (with Kobe) and is looking for another chance. Let's give these guys all the second chance that they need.
| Quote: | | Artest punched MJ in the ribs after taking too much crap from him. Now, Artest is a nut job and you shouldn't punch people (especially MJ), but he is one tough SOB. It takes a tough SOB to thrive in the sports. |
Artest is tough, no doubt. Artest also certainly has suffered from his share of depression, just like Kwame. He's suffered from his own share of making idiotic decisions. If Kwame was as soft and weak minded as people think he is, he would have quit and been out of the league by now. It has happened to talented high school players before--look at Leon Smith. A lot of guys aren't tough enough to stay in the league for even a year. A lot of guys with talent can't even keep it together enough to ever make it into the leauge. Kwame isn't Kobe, no doubt. But then again, Kwame didn't exactly have the benefit of Kobe's upbringing. Raise Kwame in that environment and he'd be a dominant player in the league now. You can't deny the importance of having a supportive family and good upbringing--Kwame never got that, and that is something that his team his going to have to give him to succeed.
I'm pretty much willing to bet that your average 18 year old kid could be brought to tears by Michael Jordan getting in their face and tearing them a new one. It isn't a big feat for Jordan to do that, and despite the average American male teenagers facade of machismo, most of them would react the same way. The question is, in the face of such constant abuse, what percentage of average people would keep coming back to practice? Kwame kept coming back. And for all this talk of pouting and everything else, until that "stomach virus" in the playoffs, I haven't heard of the kid faking an injury. I haven't heard him whining publically for a trade. He hasn't done the sort of thing that we see plenty of supposedly mature, tough grown men do in the NBA. And he hasn't done anything that most of the guys in the NBA aren't guilty of (including Caron, another guy who sulks and gives sub par defense when he's not the focus on offense).
Lastly, it is amazing that most Lakers fans are willing to have an opinion on Kwame based upon the "word on Kwame" in mainstream sport's media. We all know the rap Kobe has gotten, we all know it is mostly b.s. and undeserved. But it is the common wisdom. If it isn't true for Kobe, then why should we buy into the hype and media label attributed to Kwame?
I was guilty of this very same thing as recently as a week ago I think. Then I read a little deeper, tried to assemble all the facts, and when I did that, I start to see this is another guy the media just likes to pile on. When one sees the actual words about him from his teammates, when you read the actual things Kwame has said, when you read about what actually happened in his life and in Washington, yeah, you see the kid isn't what he's been portrayed to be and hasn't gotten a fair shake. So maybe instead of pilling on the kid before he even suits up we ought to get behind him and support him until he shows us that he doesn't deserve it. |
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Bergamotichek
Retired Number
Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 16777206
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: n |
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| Lakerfan1-Iceland wrote: |
Sorry my english isnt the greatest |
No need to apologize for it. You aren't the 1st and won't be the last. I don't like it when others jump all over people, if their grasp of English isn't as strong as theirs.
Heck... at least you can speak more than one. That's one more than I can.
Welcome to the board, btw. |
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Dr. Laker
Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2002
Posts: 17108
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: b |
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| JD wrote: |
NEWSFLASH: Caron has been on the block since about midway thru last season. If he was going to fetch better... HE WOULD HAVE BY NOW.
Face it... his value wasn't what some of you to believe it to be. |
Exactly the point. Just because we want Team X to send us Player A for Caron doesn't mean THEY want it - even if it works on realgm.com!
We can yell at Mitch for not trading Caron+Devean+Chucky+Vlade to Minnesota for KG, but we gotta understand that if we think it's a GREAT trade, Minnesota probably thinks that it STINKS and will say no.
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On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns". |
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NoHarmNoFoul
Star Player
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 1656
Location: Shanghai, China
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: n |
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| Lakerfan1-Iceland wrote: | Thats true i guess.
The thing is though with me i have been waiting for Lamar too become a special player since he first came too the L and with him it seems allways too be something.
I was more keen on the idea of trading Odom and keeping Butler as the starting SF.
Here are my reasons.
I think Caron is a harder worker.
Is willing too do more both on the floor of games and in practises.
I think he can become a better teammate of Kobe than Odom will.
In my mind Caron could have become a helluva second option behind Kobe.
Of course now he is gone so i will keep on rooting for Odom and hopin for him too become special!
He has a LOT more natural talent and game understanding than Caron has.
Sorry my english isnt the greatest |
Great post and welcome to the board! I didnt know Lakers had any fans in Iceland 
_________________
***************************************
"What will you all do when Mitch has rebuilt this team?
Who will you aim your irrational anger at then?"
-PopcornMachine |
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FredG
Star Player
Joined: 21 Jun 2005
Posts: 5328
Location: Junkyard
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| freshprince wrote: | [NO CLASS, IMMATURE COMMENTARY DELETED]
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I sure hope you don't play in pick-up games because karma is a m-fer. |
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EliasGatti
Sixth Man
Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 79
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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The OTHER part of leading is knowing HOW to treat different people. In management we call that "situational management." Jordan showed he could be a champ but he since PJ left he hasn't shown he can lead. Ever make you wonder why?
Brown's approach to being beaten down was to say screw you, I don't care about what you care about so what you say no longer matters. You see? Jordan called him names and pushed him down as a man but concerning the game. What has his been response, " i don't even care about basketball."
PJ is a better leader and will know how to reach someone with more than just constant badgering and belittling---which was ALWAYS Jordan's ONLY approach....see time when Cartwright almost beat him up....
Let's just hope he isn't beyond caring...forever about basketball...I don't want a Ricky Williams situation in LA. The fans here need to be patient or that's what will happen. To do otherwise doesn't make sense. There has been NO TIME In the past that getting "on his ass" in the media or by the fans WORKED. |
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Bergamotichek
Retired Number
Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 16777206
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| RG73 wrote: |
Kid was beat by his dad. Then he comes into the NBA and is mentally beat by Jordan. You don't abuse an abuse victim, that is psyche 101. Wizards ought to have done their homework about his background--and if they thought they couldn't handle him with kid gloves, or could not be patient enough to bring him up on his own time, they ought to have passed.
Yeah, basketball is a man's game, and its tough world, blah, blah. Lets cut the machismo b.s. If you've got a history of being abused by your father figures, chances are you're going to be mentally fragile. This doesn't make you soft, or a throw away human being. It means you've got some issues and they need to be dealt with. You can be a productive person and even succeed--you've just got to be put in the right conditions to do so. He doesn't need to be the toughest guy in the league, the hardest, the ballsiest--Kobe got enough of that to make up for ten people. And it isn't the kid has no heart--he's got too much.
Its hard to be a man when you've been beat down by men your whole life--some guys can develop under those circumstances. Good for them. Some guys need some encouragement--the kid deserves a second chance, and he'll come around. Phil knows just how to deal with fragile egos--he's going to build the kid up and give him confidence before he starts to break him down and toughen him up. That's all he needs--thankfully Phil is more intelligent and understands human nature better than most people on this board. He's obviously someone who has made his own mistakes (with Kobe) and is looking for another chance. Let's give these guys all the second chance that they need.
Artest is tough, no doubt. Artest also certainly has suffered from his share of depression, just like Kwame. He's suffered from his own share of making idiotic decisions. If Kwame was as soft and weak minded as people think he is, he would have quit and been out of the league by now. It has happened to talented high school players before--look at Leon Smith. A lot of guys aren't tough enough to stay in the league for even a year. A lot of guys with talent can't even keep it together enough to ever make it into the leauge. Kwame isn't Kobe, no doubt. But then again, Kwame didn't exactly have the benefit of Kobe's upbringing. Raise Kwame in that environment and he'd be a dominant player in the league now. You can't deny the importance of having a supportive family and good upbringing--Kwame never got that, and that is something that his team his going to have to give him to succeed.
I'm pretty much willing to bet that your average 18 year old kid could be brought to tears by Michael Jordan getting in their face and tearing them a new one. It isn't a big feat for Jordan to do that, and despite the average American male teenagers facade of machismo, most of them would react the same way. The question is, in the face of such constant abuse, what percentage of average people would keep coming back to practice? Kwame kept coming back. And for all this talk of pouting and everything else, until that "stomach virus" in the playoffs, I haven't heard of the kid faking an injury. I haven't heard him whining publically for a trade. He hasn't done the sort of thing that we see plenty of supposedly mature, tough grown men do in the NBA. And he hasn't done anything that most of the guys in the NBA aren't guilty of (including Caron, another guy who sulks and gives sub par defense when he's not the focus on offense).
Lastly, it is amazing that most Lakers fans are willing to have an opinion on Kwame based upon the "word on Kwame" in mainstream sport's media. We all know the rap Kobe has gotten, we all know it is mostly b.s. and undeserved. But it is the common wisdom. If it isn't true for Kobe, then why should we buy into the hype and media label attributed to Kwame?
I was guilty of this very same thing as recently as a week ago I think. Then I read a little deeper, tried to assemble all the facts, and when I did that, I start to see this is another guy the media just likes to pile on. When one sees the actual words about him from his teammates, when you read the actual things Kwame has said, when you read about what actually happened in his life and in Washington, yeah, you see the kid isn't what he's been portrayed to be and hasn't gotten a fair shake. So maybe instead of pilling on the kid before he even suits up we ought to get behind him and support him until he shows us that he doesn't deserve it. |
Hell yeah! Awesome post. Not too hard to recognize the people that have a little bit of life experiece vs those still sucking on their mama's (bleep).
I can relate to Kwame somewhat, because our two boys were abused by their father (he was a previous marriage). He didn't leave visible marks... but he certainly burned fear into their psyche. 2 years ago, he lost all parental rights. To this day, they still have a difficult time even mentioning his name (they refuse to call him "dad" and instead save that for me). The 13 y/o has had an easier time adjusting... however, the 12 y/o will be scarred for a very long time. He used to wake up in the middle of the night, literally crying to the point, that it came out as screams. It would take 5-10 minutes to wake him up... all the while, he's crying. Afterwards... he wouldn't even remember what he was dreaming about. Gut-wrenching, to say the least. He's moved past that, thankfully... but you can see it in the way he carries himself. This kid... is beat down.
Whenever I try to teach them something, I have to walk on eggshells with the 12 y/o. Any sign of impatience and/or frustration on my part... immediately puts him inside a shell and he loses interest. But... I see progress. He's realizing I'm not his biological father. As time goes by... he heals. So will Kwame, if put in the right situation. Leaving Washington and all the bad vibes/history surrounding it... is the 1st step. |
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Bergamotichek
Retired Number
Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 16777206
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| EliasGatti wrote: |
PJ is a better leader and will know how to reach someone with more than just constant badgering and belittling---which was ALWAYS Jordan's ONLY approach....see time when Cartwright almost beat him up....
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The Jordan Jockers don't want to admit to that. |
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scottyslakers
Sixth Man
Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:21 am Post subject: |
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I hope Phil takes Kwame under his wing and really shows this kid he can be a class human being and then a 20/13 player.
And Jordan is a punk! What an A-Hole for doing that to an 18 year kid. You lead by example and all Jordan did was show a bunch of other players on the Wizards team that it was OK to pile on Kwame! What a jerk!  |
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kups
Star Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 1716
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| RG73 wrote: | | elbonian wrote: | Kwame does not have the mental makeup to be a great player. Hopefully he will develop to be a solid starter type.
The guy is mentally soft. MJ rode his arse and what did he do? Did he stand up to prove MJ wrong? Or did he crawl up in the fetal position? |
Did you read the article or do you just like throwing out unfounded opinions?
Kid was beat by his dad. Then he comes into the NBA and is mentally beat by Jordan. You don't abuse an abuse victim, that is psyche 101. Wizards ought to have done their homework about his background--and if they thought they couldn't handle him with kid gloves, or could not be patient enough to bring him up on his own time, they ought to have passed.
Yeah, basketball is a man's game, and its tough world, blah, blah. Lets cut the machismo b.s. If you've got a history of being abused by your father figures, chances are you're going to be mentally fragile. This doesn't make you soft, or a throw away human being. It means you've got some issues and they need to be dealt with. You can be a productive person and even succeed--you've just got to be put in the right conditions to do so. He doesn't need to be the toughest guy in the league, the hardest, the ballsiest--Kobe got enough of that to make up for ten people. And it isn't the kid has no heart--he's got too much.
Its hard to be a man when you've been beat down by men your whole life--some guys can develop under those circumstances. Good for them. Some guys need some encouragement--the kid deserves a second chance, and he'll come around. Phil knows just how to deal with fragile egos--he's going to build the kid up and give him confidence before he starts to break him down and toughen him up. That's all he needs--thankfully Phil is more intelligent and understands human nature better than most people on this board. He's obviously someone who has made his own mistakes (with Kobe) and is looking for another chance. Let's give these guys all the second chance that they need.
| Quote: | | Artest punched MJ in the ribs after taking too much crap from him. Now, Artest is a nut job and you shouldn't punch people (especially MJ), but he is one tough SOB. It takes a tough SOB to thrive in the sports. |
Artest is tough, no doubt. Artest also certainly has suffered from his share of depression, just like Kwame. He's suffered from his own share of making idiotic decisions. If Kwame was as soft and weak minded as people think he is, he would have quit and been out of the league by now. It has happened to talented high school players before--look at Leon Smith. A lot of guys aren't tough enough to stay in the league for even a year. A lot of guys with talent can't even keep it together enough to ever make it into the leauge. Kwame isn't Kobe, no doubt. But then again, Kwame didn't exactly have the benefit of Kobe's upbringing. Raise Kwame in that environment and he'd be a dominant player in the league now. You can't deny the importance of having a supportive family and good upbringing--Kwame never got that, and that is something that his team his going to have to give him to succeed.
I'm pretty much willing to bet that your average 18 year old kid could be brought to tears by Michael Jordan getting in their face and tearing them a new one. It isn't a big feat for Jordan to do that, and despite the average American male teenagers facade of machismo, most of them would react the same way. The question is, in the face of such constant abuse, what percentage of average people would keep coming back to practice? Kwame kept coming back. And for all this talk of pouting and everything else, until that "stomach virus" in the playoffs, I haven't heard of the kid faking an injury. I haven't heard him whining publically for a trade. He hasn't done the sort of thing that we see plenty of supposedly mature, tough grown men do in the NBA. And he hasn't done anything that most of the guys in the NBA aren't guilty of (including Caron, another guy who sulks and gives sub par defense when he's not the focus on offense).
Lastly, it is amazing that most Lakers fans are willing to have an opinion on Kwame based upon the "word on Kwame" in mainstream sport's media. We all know the rap Kobe has gotten, we all know it is mostly b.s. and undeserved. But it is the common wisdom. If it isn't true for Kobe, then why should we buy into the hype and media label attributed to Kwame?
I was guilty of this very same thing as recently as a week ago I think. Then I read a little deeper, tried to assemble all the facts, and when I did that, I start to see this is another guy the media just likes to pile on. When one sees the actual words about him from his teammates, when you read the actual things Kwame has said, when you read about what actually happened in his life and in Washington, yeah, you see the kid isn't what he's been portrayed to be and hasn't gotten a fair shake. So maybe instead of pilling on the kid before he even suits up we ought to get behind him and support him until he shows us that he doesn't deserve it. |
 WOW! You are so right on. Please accept my humble vote for your post as post of the year.  |
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tw-lakbfan
Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Jun 2001
Posts: 16636
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| Kwame was in tough situations. But now it's up to him to take advantage of the new cirsumstance. He has to toughen up and realize his potential. |
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GunShot
Starting Rotation
Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 670
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| That was a great read RG73. |
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NOODLESTYLE
Star Player
Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 2977
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| sounds like Jordan is a true (bleep)...remember when Rip Hamilton got traded? he also felt that Mj singled him out, and even when they won the championship he never gave Mj a ring. |
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Lakerfan1-Iceland
Sixth Man
Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:14 am Post subject: Re: n |
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| NoHarmNoFoul wrote: | | Lakerfan1-Iceland wrote: | Thats true i guess.
The thing is though with me i have been waiting for Lamar too become a special player since he first came too the L and with him it seems allways too be something.
I was more keen on the idea of trading Odom and keeping Butler as the starting SF.
Here are my reasons.
I think Caron is a harder worker.
Is willing too do more both on the floor of games and in practises.
I think he can become a better teammate of Kobe than Odom will.
In my mind Caron could have become a helluva second option behind Kobe.
Of course now he is gone so i will keep on rooting for Odom and hopin for him too become special!
He has a LOT more natural talent and game understanding than Caron has.
Sorry my english isnt the greatest |
Great post and welcome to the board! I didnt know Lakers had any fans in Iceland
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Thanks there are a few Laker fans here, but most i guess were bandwagoners while the three peat was goin on.
But basketball is only about the third most popular sport here sadly behind soccer and handball but basketball has allways been my type of sport and the Lakers my team since i first saw a nba game when i was a kid. I think it was one of the last games of Kareem and seeing Magic do his thing around 1988.
But anyway on too the topic i have been reading a lot of what you guys here and the press has been talkin about this trade and i am getting more optimistic about it, i hated it at first but like many of you have said.
Kwame still is only 23 and has a lot of potential hopefully Kobe and the Laker orginasation can have a good impact on him and he at least becomes a solid starter giving us 30 plus minutes of hard work blockin shots rebounding and getting in a few points |
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Luca Brasi
Star Player
Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 4207
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:22 am Post subject: |
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^Welcome Laker fan from Iceland. This trade will pay off cause what we sorely need is interior size, defense and rebounding. With Bynum developing and Kwame only 23 - the future looks bright.
Off topic: The icelandic film Noi Albino was one of the best films I've seen in recent memory.
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"i was born down in the valley where the sun refused to shine, but i'm climbin' up to the highlands, goin' to make that mountain mine" ~ Lakers, 2011 |
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nextphenom23
Star Player
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1284
Location: VA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:46 am Post subject: |
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I just hope KObe doesnt give him the same treatment. I think he'll flourish with us. He's surrounded by good people in the Laker organization. I just wished we had Fisher here. You saw how Fisher was able to help Kobe mature he could do the same with Brown and also Bynum
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NBA Championships: 2000,2001,2002,_____
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hitman1
Rookie
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Bottom line about Kwame. What do we have to lose. Last year was horrible for the Lakers. It can't get worse than last year. So let's take a chance on former 1 pick. Phil knows what he is doing better than any of us. If you go back to the Kwame draft again. I bet you he will be picked in top 5 again. There is something there in Kwame. Imagined if it works out we will have Bynum and Kwame as twin 7 footers. Just like spurs had it with Robisnon and Duncan. |
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