Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 4:40 pm Post subject: How: The Undersized 5
Can we talk about some of the qualities, specifically defensively that enable a PF to play Center.?
I'm in love with skilled players , and I would love to have a skilled undersized Center. How can the next Al Horford be molded? Can Ben Simmons do it?
I look at Noah Vonleh's length and build, .75" shorter than Horford, considerably longer, same weight. Why couldn't he develop into an undersized 5? ( I'm a fan of Vonleh's potential. Nice shooting stroke, can handle, can finish)
What about possibly signing Jon Leur and playing him lots of minutes at Center? He's almost 7feet, but has barely average length for a PF. How could he survive at Center? Great shooter for a big.
Defensively it's largely about that mobility. The ability to defend the pick and roll, to be more disruptive, show more and handle switches with speed. It's got to be good enough to make up for less length at the rim. Combine that with some decent strength to hold your own against a more traditional C.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 11:21 pm Post subject:
Not completely on topic but Draymond is actually gigantic in person. Longer than you would think and much wider than most of the fives he gets matched up with.
here's a defensive possession from the Hawks in the playoffs. Look at the swarm mentality to the paint, even a bit of overhelping - but the competence from Bazemore to be on the dime reacting to a possible corner outlet pass.
Korver leaving his man to take advantage of a not so competent bigman, not fearing the pass back out. Swarm mentality.
I'm guessing this over-helping to the paint/swarm mentality is a big part to defending the paint when you have an undersized 5.
Here's another Hawks defensive possession from that series. I feel like this play is the holy grail of offensive set-up and defensive execution. This PnR play from the Celtics is awesome, screen for the screener, and then another screen for the original screener. Defensively, Horford even stops Jarevko from driving after trapping Thomas on the ball-screen, and then proceeds to hustle back to his man - and then defends another ball-screen.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 6:31 pm Post subject: Re: How: The Undersized 5
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Can we talk about some of the qualities, specifically defensively that enable a PF to play Center.?
Height is less relevant.
Standing reach and wingspan are relevant. As long as it's in comparison to "an average center", the guy can compete.
It helps that Draymond has a post base and can move his feet. So now his wingspan and standing reach make him a hell of a tall, moving pylon that holds position with post base.
Vonleh, it's an IQ issue. That lack of offensive awareness/passing ability hinders him on the offensive end. He was okay with it as a high post slasher, but passing out of the post has been more of an adjustment.
But everything else? He has the base, length, reach. He just doesn't show the motor and quickness that he used to in HS, and I think a large part of it is due to the massive bulk he added as a freshman in Indiana.
In terms of the draft, the guy that stands out to me is Henry Ellenson. 6'10" 7'2" wingspan. 9' ish standing reach. SF skills as a slasher, easy NBA 3pt range, rebounds high rate, can go full court, solid awareness. Was previously a C at 261lbs, dropped to 230 ish, now up to 242. Has heavy cement boots for feet, but the post base is already there. If ever there was a Draymond/Kevin Love type of the draft, it is that guy. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: How: The Undersized 5
Mike@LG wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Can we talk about some of the qualities, specifically defensively that enable a PF to play Center.?
Height is less relevant.
Standing reach and wingspan are relevant. As long as it's in comparison to "an average center", the guy can compete.
It helps that Draymond has a post base and can move his feet. So now his wingspan and standing reach make him a hell of a tall, moving pylon that holds position with post base.
Vonleh, it's an IQ issue. That lack of offensive awareness/passing ability hinders him on the offensive end. He was okay with it as a high post slasher, but passing out of the post has been more of an adjustment.
But everything else? He has the base, length, reach. He just doesn't show the motor and quickness that he used to in HS, and I think a large part of it is due to the massive bulk he added as a freshman in Indiana.
In terms of the draft, the guy that stands out to me is Henry Ellenson. 6'10" 7'2" wingspan. 9' ish standing reach. SF skills as a slasher, easy NBA 3pt range, rebounds high rate, can go full court, solid awareness. Was previously a C at 261lbs, dropped to 230 ish, now up to 242. Has heavy cement boots for feet, but the post base is already there. If ever there was a Draymond/Kevin Love type of the draft, it is that guy.
Ya I'm surprised at Vonleh's speed drop off . Although, when he switches on guards he moves his feet amazingly at times, like Randle.
There's so many candidates now for this small type of Center, that's why I'm so interested in grabbing a player and molding him. Ellenson is a candidate, but the lack of athleticism vertically and laterally are discrouraging. Although, Kevin Love has been excelling at the 5 in the playoffs at times, and his feet are slower.
Another guy is Trey Lyles. All of these guys we've named have better measurables than Al Horford. I want a small/skilled Center badly, but the elusive skill that makes one is IQ.
Even Larry Nance has the measurables to pull it off.
I'm not up to speed about the college prospects, but it's a cool topic. I agree with most here.
There are good examples we've seen recently in the NBA, even on our own squads. Lamar was obviously a great guy for this. Pau is also very good for most of these things, except for the fact that he's not always as strong as we would need. He has more game saving perimiter blocks than anyone I've ever seen.
KG was a good example of a do it all big guy, more so than Duncan, who is a more traditional center.
Lebron is a good example also. I think he would be better served playing the draymond green role actually, bu whatever he has to play the leader.
green is the best example right now, he's like a modern super-odom. Not as long, better shooter.
i saw some simmons clips. He's good at everything...except scoring. and that scares me. i'd rather have ingram. scoring is a hard skill to learn once you're in the nba.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 9:48 pm Post subject: Re: How: The Undersized 5
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Can we talk about some of the qualities, specifically defensively that enable a PF to play Center.?
Height is less relevant.
Standing reach and wingspan are relevant. As long as it's in comparison to "an average center", the guy can compete.
It helps that Draymond has a post base and can move his feet. So now his wingspan and standing reach make him a hell of a tall, moving pylon that holds position with post base.
Vonleh, it's an IQ issue. That lack of offensive awareness/passing ability hinders him on the offensive end. He was okay with it as a high post slasher, but passing out of the post has been more of an adjustment.
But everything else? He has the base, length, reach. He just doesn't show the motor and quickness that he used to in HS, and I think a large part of it is due to the massive bulk he added as a freshman in Indiana.
In terms of the draft, the guy that stands out to me is Henry Ellenson. 6'10" 7'2" wingspan. 9' ish standing reach. SF skills as a slasher, easy NBA 3pt range, rebounds high rate, can go full court, solid awareness. Was previously a C at 261lbs, dropped to 230 ish, now up to 242. Has heavy cement boots for feet, but the post base is already there. If ever there was a Draymond/Kevin Love type of the draft, it is that guy.
Ya I'm surprised at Vonleh's speed drop off . Although, when he switches on guards he moves his feet amazingly at times, like Randle.
There's so many candidates now for this small type of Center, that's why I'm so interested in grabbing a player and molding him. Ellenson is a candidate, but the lack of athleticism vertically and laterally are discrouraging. Although, Kevin Love has been excelling at the 5 in the playoffs at times, and his feet are slower.
Another guy is Trey Lyles. All of these guys we've named have better measurables than Al Horford. I want a small/skilled Center badly, but the elusive skill that makes one is IQ.
Even Larry Nance has the measurables to pull it off.
IMO, Randle's most effective position will be at Center.
IMO, Randle's most effective position will be at Center.
If that's the case, he's in trouble.
I'm not advocating that he starts at the five. But the team may do the most damage when he shifts over there, much like Draymond.
I would love to see how his quickness/attacking advantage plays out against Centers. Maybe it give him enough space to finish better. I'd want him to look pass-first though.
Defensively it would be about effort; look at Justice Winslow..
IMO, Randle's most effective position will be at Center.
If that's the case, he's in trouble.
I'm not advocating that he starts at the five. But the team may do the most damage when he shifts over there, much like Draymond.
I would love to see how his quickness/attacking advantage plays out against Centers. Maybe it give him enough space to finish better. I'd want him to look pass-first though.
Defensively it would be about effort; look at Justice Winslow..
Defensively, would be the issue. He still makes a lot of fundamental mistakes, like turning to look at the ball and losing his man.
The real question is whether these fundamental errors are too ingrained for him to get past them enough to become an adequate NBA defender at any position. Right now he's a guy with a lot of enticing skills but who has developed a lot of bad habits coasting against lesser players.
I could see him going either way -- he could become a solid starter on a good team or even an all-star; or he could slide into a career backup or starter who puts up solid stats on crappy teams, with things like big rebounding stats hiding his other deficiencies.
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