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LALtripleOcho
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 Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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Hollinger was gonna sign a contract to be apart of NBA fastbreak this year, but he couldn't get every member of the Heats balls out his mouth and Lebrons wang out of his hand to sign it. 
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jwbrown77
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Chimpy wrote: | 3. Can they be the best defensive team of all time?
Of all the items on this list, this one appears to be the most realistic for Miami to achieve. |
This seriously makes me laugh. They have absolutely no defensive presence inside and they're going to be the best defensive team of all time? Compared to a team with a prime Tim Duncan?
What a crock. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| lakersboy wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | So, in sum, his take seems to be: "Both the Lakers and the Heat will likely win in the mid-60s or so. The Lakers are more of a known quantity, and their roster tweaks aren't enough to jump from 57 wins last year to 72 this year. The Heat are unlikely to get 72 eithet, but we don't have a history to judge them against."
I can't argue with that, though it's staggering to me that at the start of the season people are talking about what a great defensive team the Heat are becoming. |
i'd like to know why having:
pau/bynum at center
pau/lamar at pf
artest/barnes at sf
kobe/drastically improved shannon at sg
fisher (fresher)/blake at pg
a minimal high quality 10 man rotation, cant be clearly seen as enough to go from 57 to 72? put me in the "dumb" category because i think they very possibly could get there if healthy. . |
Most of the squad your mentioning were on the 57 win team last year. The only key additions were Blake and Barnes. Now, going from 57 to 72 wins is huge. I'd say it's logical to assume the guys who are playing way above their statistical norms will cool down some and we'll hit some bumps when the schedule gets tougher and we hit the road. Sure, 72 wins could happen, but it would require everything to break in just the right way for us and it's highly unlikely. My guess we'll end up with 63-66 wins. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| jwbrown77 wrote: | It seems like he's assuming he's seen the best the Lakers can do defensively.
Clearly the Lakers aren't interested enough in these early opponents to put for the effort to hold them to 80 points. They're like a cat with a ball of yarn. . |
Well, that's really the point. The great defensive teams don't turn it on and off. They're great because they are focused and play hard on that end every right. Your point actually argues against the idea of the Lakers winning 72 games, because to accomplish that feat you need mental focus and discipline all year long. If you just get up for the really good teams, then it's unlikely that some lesser teams will steal wins from you here and there, and there isn't much margin of error with 72 wins. |
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Fourplay
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Joined: 01 Oct 2002
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Location: Pacoima, CA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | The End Game wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | The End Game wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | The End Game wrote: | | So pretty much this was a Heat article, pretty much only mentioning the Lakers in the title to garner clicks. |
It probably started out as an article about both, but he's in love. This may be something ESPN has to start monitoring. They'll ask Chimpy to write an article about the Pacers and he'll end up writing 3,000 words on the Heat. |
I also love in the short amount of words he wrote about the Lakers, he managed a nice little dig about Kobe. His slurpfest with LeBron and the Heat has become gross. |
How was that a dig at Kobe?
He was criticizing Hollins for not using Allen on Kobe more. |
Saying the one time Allen was on Kobe, he put up a wild shot that barely grazed the rim is something that's completely irrelevant to the article. |
Mentioning that Kobe had 23 points on 9 shots in the first half was irrelevant as well, but that doesn't make it a dig. |
I don't know why you are acting like you're blind and defending the chimpster. He's claiming Tony Allen can guard Kobe which he cannot. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Fourplay wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | The End Game wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | The End Game wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | The End Game wrote: | | So pretty much this was a Heat article, pretty much only mentioning the Lakers in the title to garner clicks. |
It probably started out as an article about both, but he's in love. This may be something ESPN has to start monitoring. They'll ask Chimpy to write an article about the Pacers and he'll end up writing 3,000 words on the Heat. |
I also love in the short amount of words he wrote about the Lakers, he managed a nice little dig about Kobe. His slurpfest with LeBron and the Heat has become gross. |
How was that a dig at Kobe?
He was criticizing Hollins for not using Allen on Kobe more. |
Saying the one time Allen was on Kobe, he put up a wild shot that barely grazed the rim is something that's completely irrelevant to the article. |
Mentioning that Kobe had 23 points on 9 shots in the first half was irrelevant as well, but that doesn't make it a dig. |
I don't know why you are acting like you're blind and defending the chimpster. He's claiming Tony Allen can guard Kobe which he cannot. |
You can say I'm blind and I can say that some people walk around with way too big of a chip on their shoulder on behalf of Kobe.
I'm fully onboard with the idea that many people in the media tweak Kobe at every possible opportunity, including the Chimpster. But not EVERYTHING is a backhanded compliment.
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You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | jwbrown77 wrote: | It seems like he's assuming he's seen the best the Lakers can do defensively.
Clearly the Lakers aren't interested enough in these early opponents to put for the effort to hold them to 80 points. They're like a cat with a ball of yarn. . |
Well, that's really the point. The great defensive teams don't turn it on and off. They're great because they are focused and play hard on that end every right. Your point actually argues against the idea of the Lakers winning 72 games, because to accomplish that feat you need mental focus and discipline all year long. If you just get up for the really good teams, then it's unlikely that some lesser teams will steal wins from you here and there, and there isn't much margin of error with 72 wins. |
Yeah. Part of the character of this team has always been to coast a bit against certain levels of competition and to play just good enough to win the majority of the time - as is evidenced by 57 win seasons when well over 60 should be theoretically possible.
I think the additions to this team might save the Lakers from getting bitten in the ass by that tendency a few extra times this year. But it is for the reasons you mention that I wasn't onboard with people's assessment going into the season that the new roster was good for 65-66 wins. I figured they might do slightly better than last year by a few games simply because they do have a tendency to not focus down on each and every game.
But I will say that I have seen a tad more killer instinct this season as far as coming out hard, building and then maintaining leads, if not trying to lock down defensively for 48 minutes.
So It's not unlikely that given the fewer back-to-backs this year, I could be low in my estimate. But I don't think it is unreasonable to say that this team won't be looking at 70+ wins.
And at the same time I think it is ridiculous to think that Miami is so much better defensively that they are looking at winning 70+ games - especially based on a 4-1 record where they lost to the only top level team they have played.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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lakersboy
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 8518
Location: Left coast
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | lakersboy wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | So, in sum, his take seems to be: "Both the Lakers and the Heat will likely win in the mid-60s or so. The Lakers are more of a known quantity, and their roster tweaks aren't enough to jump from 57 wins last year to 72 this year. The Heat are unlikely to get 72 eithet, but we don't have a history to judge them against."
I can't argue with that, though it's staggering to me that at the start of the season people are talking about what a great defensive team the Heat are becoming. |
i'd like to know why having:
pau/bynum at center
pau/lamar at pf
artest/barnes at sf
kobe/drastically improved shannon at sg
fisher (fresher)/blake at pg
a minimal high quality 10 man rotation, cant be clearly seen as enough to go from 57 to 72? put me in the "dumb" category because i think they very possibly could get there if healthy. . |
Most of the squad your mentioning were on the 57 win team last year. The only key additions were Blake and Barnes. Now, going from 57 to 72 wins is huge. I'd say it's logical to assume the guys who are playing way above their statistical norms will cool down some and we'll hit some bumps when the schedule gets tougher and we hit the road. Sure, 72 wins could happen, but it would require everything to break in just the right way for us and it's highly unlikely. My guess we'll end up with 63-66 wins. |
the heat added 2 strategic players to their lineup from last season to plug significant holes in their lineup and it was deemed a big upgrade. they shuffled other pieces around, made a roster, and are being hailed as the greatest.
the leagues best team added 2 strategic players to their lineup from last season to plug significant holes in their bench, but the computer info is used to reason that they'll have the same season as before.
it's basically saying the heat's two guys may make them the greatest ever, and oh yeah, the lakers brought in two more bodies. those two more bodies have turned what was a mess last year, into a highly efficent 2nd unit performing together better than any other in the nba. a unit that allows starters to rest like never before.
lamar and pau as backup center was/were the only backups who played consistent dependable basketball. now you added a player who efficiently controls the 2nd unit, another who energizes it, and another who has just honed his skills and figured things out. you've got a unit giving you very good defense, offense, and rebounding. starters can play their hearts and not be spent like kobe was at the end of game 7 last june.
assuming that the 2nd team is (at least for now) bynum, lamar/pau, barnes, shannon, & blake, that team has zero holes in any part of it's game and i doubt phil will spend the season rushing starters back in the game in the 1st & 2nd half after the subs blew another big lead.
so far the 2nd unit has seamlesly fit, produced significnatly, and will likely continue being productive.
even as ron shoots poorly, and kobe has defended poorly, the lakers have done well.
if someone's scoring or shooting #'s come down, theirs no reason to believe someone in the lineup wont take over what the others were doing.
we saw ron shooting well in pre season and now teams know it so they're not leaving him open. lamar's being left open and he's hitting. blake is getting open. shannon isn't being left open much anymore. it's pick your poison time and teams will continue to pay, no matter who they choose to focus on that night.
the computer didn't factor a few things such as:
RON will shoot better this year without a bum finger.
SHANNON is a better player/shooter, as evidenced by 8 pre season games and 4 season games. some will figure that out by the time they've played on national tv at xmas, or in the playoffs, but local people who watch more than what happens in miami can see it now.
PAU is better inside and more consistent because his turnaround moves either direction are mostly with 2 hand shots and thus more consistent.
Last edited by lakersboy on Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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lakersboy
Star Player
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 8518
Location: Left coast
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | jwbrown77 wrote: | It seems like he's assuming he's seen the best the Lakers can do defensively.
Clearly the Lakers aren't interested enough in these early opponents to put for the effort to hold them to 80 points. They're like a cat with a ball of yarn. . |
Well, that's really the point. The great defensive teams don't turn it on and off. They're great because they are focused and play hard on that end every right. Your point actually argues against the idea of the Lakers winning 72 games, because to accomplish that feat you need mental focus and discipline all year long. If you just get up for the really good teams, then it's unlikely that some lesser teams will steal wins from you here and there, and there isn't much margin of error with 72 wins. |
Yeah. Part of the character of this team has always been to coast a bit against certain levels of competition and to play just good enough to win the majority of the time - as is evidenced by 57 win seasons when well over 60 should be theoretically possible.
But I will say that I have seen a tad more killer instinct this season as far as coming out hard, building and then maintaining leads, if not trying to lock down defensively for 48 minutes.
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people are using terms and making general assumptions that are completely unrealistic. "the lakers aren't interested" enough to put in defensive effort to hold teams to 80? what about kobe hasnt showed defensive lockdown quickness yet because his knee isn't right?
he's spent the majority of his time reaching at players from behind to slap their dribble away. when he heals and hopefully does that less, this team will be much better defensively.
has anyone ever seen fisher take a defensive play off? barnes? blake? artest? i havent. fisher mentioned needing to work on improving things defensively, and then the team looked much better against memphis, including kobe on mayo.
this team will have at least 9 solid players getting run when bynum returns, and that will mean nobody should be overworked. more guys could play, but phil wont rotate that deep unless it's a blowout. anyone who doesnt seem "interested" will be comfortably resting his feet.
another difference is these guys are more capable than the subs have been in the past. the last 2 years farmar was directing mbenga, josh powell, sasha, luke, and whoever, while hoping not to lose one big lead after another that the starters built. since guys now are capable of keeping those leads and building on them via offense, rebounding, and defense, maybe that's more of a reason the team will seem "interested."
the key is the backups. when you look at a projected 2nd unit of:
bynum
pau/lamar
barnes
shannon
blake
or
pau
lamar
barnes
shannon
blake
no way in the world anyone can honestly claim the lakers ever had a 2nd unit this good, this capable, and that they'll continue to produce the way the bench has in the past. |
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Rodman28
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| The End Game wrote: | | So pretty much this was a Heat article, pretty much only mentioning the Lakers in the title to garner clicks. |
You beat me to it. 
He's an idiot.
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circlefong
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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Hollinger Insider: How great can Heat and Lakers be?
I think this Hollinger should rephrase his question: "How [good] can Heat be?" and "How great can Lakers be?"  |
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tw-lakbfan
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: |
And at the same time I think it is ridiculous to think that Miami is so much better defensively that they are looking at winning 70+ games - especially based on a 4-1 record where they lost to the only top level team they have played. |
Only?
How about the Magics? |
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dmills
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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As usual people are missing the point. The meat of the article is fine imo. It's the lead that's deceptive. He threw a bone to the Lakers, and then spent the bulk of the piece writing about the Heat. It just as easily (and likely should have) could have been yet another Heat piece. He added nothing substantive about the lakers with respect to any potential historic achievement.
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DaMuleRules
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Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| lakersboy wrote: |
no way in the world anyone can honestly claim the lakers ever had a 2nd unit this good, this capable, and that they'll continue to produce the way the bench has in the past. |
I'd contend that the second unit of the early 3peat team was this good, but there's little doubt that of recent years this is the best bench.
But the reality is the Lakers stumblings over the years haven't been solely the fault of the bench.
I do think this team is likely to win more games than even I thought they would before the season now that I have seen them play. But the core is the same, and while the bench has improved tremendously (I mean Sasha doesn't even get PT - that says a lot), the new additions aren't going to radically change the team mindset that has existed where they play game to game and opponent by opponent.
They simply aren't going to go from a 57 win team to a 72 win team.
Would I like to be wrong about that? Of course.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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DaMuleRules
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Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| tw-lakbfan wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: |
And at the same time I think it is ridiculous to think that Miami is so much better defensively that they are looking at winning 70+ games - especially based on a 4-1 record where they lost to the only top level team they have played. |
Only?
How about the Magics? |
The Magics?
Sure, they are a good Eastern Conference team. But I'm not sold on them as being quite as good as they should be.
At any rate, let's call the Magic an elite team for the sake of the argument. It doesn't really change my point much.
People make excuses for the Heat saying that "Wade wasn't ready" etc. but ignore that the Lakers look damn good minus Bynum and with Kobe clearly less than 100%.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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dmills
Star Player
Joined: 18 Aug 2005
Posts: 3711
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| grimmz4764 wrote: | | He also completely ignores his statistics when it doesn't agree with his argument, as he did here with the Heat possibly winning 72 games, even though that is highly unlikely. |
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A key that has the ability to unlock many locks is a master key. But a lock that can be opened with any key is useless. |
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Annihilator
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Posts: 4035
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:16 am Post subject: |
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Any guesses as to when Hollinger will retract this article?
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Last edited by Annihilator on Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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OdomGrab
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| chipotleattack wrote: | | kaoss128 wrote: | | Wow so basically Chimpy's strategy here was to mention the Lakers in the title to get attention and then write an article completely about the Heat. |
that's exactly what he did, otherwise no one will read it. |
this kind of crap pisses me off man.
this guy lives of garbage posts. |
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thurloly
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| jwbrown77 wrote: | | Chimpy wrote: | 3. Can they be the best defensive team of all time?
Of all the items on this list, this one appears to be the most realistic for Miami to achieve. |
This seriously makes me laugh. They have absolutely no defensive presence inside and they're going to be the best defensive team of all time? Compared to a team with a prime Tim Duncan?
What a crock. |
Lol! THE BEST DEFENSIVE TEAM OF ALL-TIME only beat up 1 team over 0.500.
Really the BEST of ALL-TIME.
I know he can have his own opinion. However, I never see any lame opinion like this one. It is pure BLIND. |
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