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GQue24
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:07 am    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
GQue24 wrote:
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If you are trying to make the case that Bynum is a player like Ratliff or Mutumbo = Then I agree. They are nothing more then role players who cant be expected to be #1, #2, nor a #3 option for their team. They are gimmick players who only are used to take up space with 7 foot frames, use their 6 fouls, and get whatever garbage numbers they can within the flow of the offense. Also meaning easily replaceable by any serviceable BIG with some skill & ability. Just like them back in their days and Bynum today they were and are OVer Paid and overrated.


Bynum definitely has a billion times more skill offensively than either of those two, but people feared those two more when coming into the lane.


He may have more skill but if it doesnt translate for just 1 entire season from beginning to end and not just 5 gm flashes from time to time and then missed 40-50 gms due to injury = Hype, potential, & or a couple of gms of showing star like quality does not even out and legitmize teh kid. Because 8.6.1.5 blocks in playoffs is trash and any serviceable big can produce that for LA in place of him.

Bynum has to have at least 3 consecutive good seasons in a row with limited gms missed no more then 10, to be taken seriously or even get a real determination if he is nothing more then over valued / over paid Big.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:09 am    Post subject:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:09 am    Post subject:

GQue24 wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
GQue24 wrote:
Post n Pivot

If you are trying to make the case that Bynum is a player like Ratliff or Mutumbo = Then I agree. They are nothing more then role players who cant be expected to be #1, #2, nor a #3 option for their team. They are gimmick players who only are used to take up space with 7 foot frames, use their 6 fouls, and get whatever garbage numbers they can within the flow of the offense. Also meaning easily replaceable by any serviceable BIG with some skill & ability. Just like them back in their days and Bynum today they were and are OVer Paid and overrated.


Bynum definitely has a billion times more skill offensively than either of those two, but people feared those two more when coming into the lane.


He may have more skill but if it doesnt translate for just 1 entire season from beginning to end and not just 5 gm flashes from time to time and then missed 40-50 gms due to injury = Hype, potential, & or a couple of gms of showing star like quality does not even out and legitmize teh kid. Because 8.6.1.5 blocks in playoffs is trash and any serviceable big can produce that for LA in place of him.

Bynum has to have at least 3 consecutive good seasons in a row with limited gms missed no more then 10, to be taken seriously or even get a real determination if he is nothing more then over valued / over paid Big.
now bynum has to have 3 good years in a row. while blake is on his first season after not playing all last season. okay bias alert.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:13 am    Post subject:

GQue24 wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
GQue24 wrote:
Post n Pivot

If you are trying to make the case that Bynum is a player like Ratliff or Mutumbo = Then I agree. They are nothing more then role players who cant be expected to be #1, #2, nor a #3 option for their team. They are gimmick players who only are used to take up space with 7 foot frames, use their 6 fouls, and get whatever garbage numbers they can within the flow of the offense. Also meaning easily replaceable by any serviceable BIG with some skill & ability. Just like them back in their days and Bynum today they were and are OVer Paid and overrated.


Bynum definitely has a billion times more skill offensively than either of those two, but people feared those two more when coming into the lane.


He may have more skill but if it doesnt translate for just 1 entire season from beginning to end and not just 5 gm flashes from time to time and then missed 40-50 gms due to injury = Hype, potential, & or a couple of gms of showing star like quality does not even out and legitmize teh kid. Because 8.6.1.5 blocks in playoffs is trash and any serviceable big can produce that for LA in place of him.

Bynum has to have at least 3 consecutive good seasons in a row with limited gms missed no more then 10, to be taken seriously or even get a real determination if he is nothing more then over valued / over paid Big.


Good Centers in the NBA are rare, so they are valued more.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:22 am    Post subject:

Last night was really the first time I got to see Griffin aside from highlights (because really, who watches a whole Clippers game?).

Kid is pretty great, amazing knack for the ball, plays really hard, and is explosive. But you can see he has a lot to develop. Teams still don't really know how to handle him, but that is going to start soon. Also, he needs to develop more of an offensive skillset, and quite frankly, has to tone it down at least a bit because it's really easy to see this guy having knee problems down the road.

I was an ardent follower when Vince Carter started out and it was very similar. Vince developed a much more refined offensive game, then could never really balance the explosiveness and elegance in a complete way.

Should be fun to watch Griffin's maturation.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:22 am    Post subject:

Yes Pau has had 7 years of very good balling.

Kobe has had over a decade of Great balling.

Amare has had 5 years of very good balling

How do you rate Bynum so high as far as Bigs are concerned and he is unproven for consecutive seasons? IT makes no sense. YOu have to prove yourself in your career and improve from year to year. Not stay the same nor digress.

I dont even care about Griffin thing, i was just making the point for earlier comments above. This is Griff rookie year, so yes his numbers are Gawdy now, but next season will he hit the rookie wall and decline like Curry & Tyreke? Possibly but I highly doubt it, because right now he is so raw and doesnt even have a complete offensive game, yet he is putting up numbers so easily. Bynum cant put up big offensive numbers if LA forced the issue and made him take 6 shots a quarter!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:17 pm    Post subject:

THE_SHOES wrote:
Bynum4MVP wrote:
thurloly wrote:
I remember that, in 2009 Fianal, the Lakers took away Howard's dunk for 3 straight game. Howard looked pretty much useless on the offense.

If opponents design game plan to take away Blake R. dunk game, how will Blake R. do?

I will take Bynum. However, if Bynum keeps having injury, then Blake R.


This.

Bynum, talent and being 7 foot + makes Bynum the better player.

If Bynum was on the Clippers and getting the touches Griffin is getting, he'd be averaging 25+

Injury is the only thing that makes me think Blake and even at that, Blake has yet to prove he can stay healthy.

People have forgotten that this isn't really Blake Griffins "rookie" year.

In fact, through 2 years of their career, Bynum was far more healthy than Griffin.


Tru dat...

What I would like to see happen in the future is to get that beast over in a Laker shirt and let him and Socks terrorize the league together. Blake is frightening. You put him with Socks, and find some "merry minimums" to go along for the ride, and put the league on notice... Imagine a completely healthy Socks, and Blake!
^^THIS is my DREAM and Wish list. seriously. forget dwight.

Give me the beast and Socks. thats all i need.

I dont care if KB ages and looks like mike miller and nothing more from there on out. it will be more then enough.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:19 pm    Post subject:

GQue24 wrote:
Yes Pau has had 7 years of very good balling.

Kobe has had over a decade of Great balling.

Amare has had 5 years of very good balling

How do you rate Bynum so high as far as Bigs are concerned and he is unproven for consecutive seasons? IT makes no sense. YOu have to prove yourself in your career and improve from year to year. Not stay the same nor digress.

I dont even care about Griffin thing, i was just making the point for earlier comments above. This is Griff rookie year, so yes his numbers are Gawdy now, but next season will he hit the rookie wall and decline like Curry & Tyreke? Possibly but I highly doubt it, because right now he is so raw and doesnt even have a complete offensive game, yet he is putting up numbers so easily. Bynum cant put up big offensive numbers if LA forced the issue and made him take 6 shots a quarter!
HOw old are you?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:10 pm    Post subject:

The unknown factor is how Drew would perform if he had the freedom some of these other players have if he wasn't playing next to Odom, Kobe, Pau, and Ron. I think many people here drastically underrate the kind of impact Drew has now and what kind of numbers Drew would put up if he was given his own team (or even put into a similar situation as Kaman/Griffin).

I take Drew . I love Griffin. However, to me, he's no better than Amare Stoudemire with a better handle. I'll take Drew every day of the week over Amare, and Amare is in the running for MVP right now.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:28 pm    Post subject:

I hate threads like these. I always see them as a cheap chance to bash Bynum, who has actually been playing very well lately.

Can't we just be happy with that?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:17 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
The unknown factor is how Drew would perform if he had the freedom some of these other players have if he wasn't playing next to Odom, Kobe, Pau, and Ron. I think many people here drastically underrate the kind of impact Drew has now and what kind of numbers Drew would put up if he was given his own team (or even put into a similar situation as Kaman/Griffin).

I take Drew . I love Griffin. However, to me, he's no better than Amare Stoudemire with a better handle. I'll take Drew every day of the week over Amare, and Amare is in the running for MVP right now.
lets flip this so those that aren't drew fans can see the point.


KOBE young KOBE. was underrated to an extent. everything was the only reason he can score is because of SHAQQQQQ(in a whiney voice).

I heard AI say it, Vince say it, Tmac Say it, Ray allen said it, Pierce said it.

Media said it.

What did kobe do? put up 62 points while the mavs had less then that in 3 qtrs. with no shaq around. with a lackluster cast of clowns. i mean players.

the guy did nothing but score the second highest point total for a game in NBA HISTORY with the 81 performance for a comeback win. thats all KOBE without shaq could do.

It proved that all those who believed every other superstar that was drafted on to a sucky team would was so much better based on pure numbers. i mean tmac was throwing up 50's in the offs with garrity as his sidekick. Tmac had to be better then KOBE RIGHT? WRONG.

Getting on these bad teams where everything revolves around you. makes your stats Balloon.

and or playing in an uptempo offense can also do that see AMARE, see the matrix with the suns, etc.

thats why if you Reallllly want to talk about starting a franchise. talk about impact. griffin makes a HUGGGGGE impact on the stupid clippers. stupid is for sterling actually not the players. blake is making BD desire to play again. he's making D.jordan want to play harder every night. blakes youthful energy and just natural super energy he brings makes everyone upbeat. i see it.

The guy is a 6'10 charles barkley. thats massive. charles is one of my favorite pf's of all time. and nothing will change that. even if he does say something wreckless about kb or the lakeshow. so what does that tell you how i think of griffin in his first REAL season. funny thing is blake can dribble better then chuck already. he just cant shoot that 3 as well YET.

But again here's the thing you have to ask yourself. THE suns with chuck b had a championship caliber team. but they lost. i dont care who it was too. they lost. WHY? they didn't have a Big man that would deter people. atleast i can say CHuck had back 2 the baket game. so that wasn't necessary from a center if they had one.
Put it this way. if they had mutumbo CHuck would be sitting pretty with atleast 1 ring right now. and thats vs the bulls. i said it. chuck would've beaten mjay.

the thing that ticked me off the most was win miami got beat by the friggin nicks in the first round or was it the 2nd? whatever it was. and that mean tim hardaway and ZO couldn't beat the bulls. they had no answer for zo and zo was sending stuff back. thats exactly what you needed to send the bulls packing.

notice who the bulls beat all those years. no one had a Real center on both ends. if they did the guy wasn't healthy. or the rest of his team sucked.

look throughout history. there have been a lot of LEGENDARY PFs in the game. but the last few we remember that didn't have super teams(KG with his Cs and Mchale/Bird with their C's), Kmalone, Chuck B, and Shawn kemp were legendary players. They couldn't Win it all.

look at how those 3 teams were built around those players. all different. 2 run n gun types. but the sonics were built on defense as well and uptempo win necessary. they had a nice half court game also. suns all run n fun. with chuck b as the half court offense. and Utah with malone as a more Slow it down and play halfcourt hoop team. that could run do to malone being so fast himself. and they were serious about defense.
NON of these guys won. why not?

you cant win without a BIG, Unless you're a Mjay scorer with another lockdown SF defender that can guard pg, sg, sf's, that also runs the offense. the only other mjay scorer we have seen is KOBE Bryant. and he couldn't win without shaq or Gasol+Bynum+LO. thats a super big when you put them all together. since Kobe has never had a Pip side kick. he couldn't pull it off either.

So lets be real here. you're telling me GRiffin is the best to start your franchise with over a healthy BYNUM.
i'll prove you wrong.

Griffin on the sonics in Gp's hayday.

Griffin on the suns in KJ's hayday

Griffin on the jazz in Stocktons hayday.

make sure griffin replaces each super PF.

Will griffin WIn a ship in that era? NOPE. he would lose to mjay just like the rest of them.

now watch this.

BYNUM as the focal point of your team. HEALTHY all season long. remember he's the focal point. the stats you see today would ballooon because of that fact. no matter if you dont have kobe taking away double teams. guys figure out double teams. even elton brand figure them out after a year of it thats how the clippers turned out so well that one year.

So let me get Bynum On the sonics with a Prime Gary the glove payton and no kemp. give me someone like Lamar odom at PF. So you have GP and bynum as the two superstars and LO as the borderline allstar and the rest are role guys.

Give me Bynum and LO on the suns to replace whoever their center was back then and chuck B.

same thing for ostertag and karl malone.

Bynum would be able to beat mjay and pip in 7 games due to his size and ability on both sides.

I'm trying to tell you. there's a reason big guys win ships more then anyone else in the league. bigman oriented teams win. bigman being CENTERS. not pfs. unless like timmy they are actually centers posing as PF's.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:20 pm    Post subject:

IF you dont think Drews rebs would balloon with NO gasol AND LO. then you're fooling yourself.

here's proof. Look at Chris Bosh now. and he's still not playing on a superior rebounding bigs team. but LBJ will go hit the glass. Z gets some and so does old man damps. thats all he's good for.

Bosh has less Rebs then he had at toronto. why? toronto didn't have a single player not named bosh that cared about rebounding. when you're the only guy who cares about it. you can easily get 12+ boards per game.


LO just got 17 or so the other night. thats who drew is playing with. a guy who can get 17 on any given night and another guy who could bust out with 15 if he chooses to. thats to many borders. not to mention ron gets down there also with KB. shoot even fisher is decent at it.


And for the record. say bynum had a chance to play with another allstar. not kobe. but another allstar. it would be a REAL PG not fisher. not in the triangle either. So everything changes. you double bynum fine. Dwill blazes you for a 3 or a layup. Dwill calling drew for the pick n roll 40 times per game. dwill crosses someone up goes to the rack the bigs converge on dwill. dwill blows the layup. drew put back tip jam.

dwill breaks down the defense, brings the big out to him. dishes it off to drew for the 2 hand stuff. its easy.

the same thing they do to us right now cause of old man fish not being able to guard a soul and the dont touch rules still would apply if drew is your first pick to start a franchise.

if i have drew. I want a PG. just like if i have griffin i want a PG.

the difference is drew's numbers would balloon more then what you see today on that alone. then take away a great option in gasol downlow. and its all night and day. its drew getting post up passes twice as often. its drew getting more dump off passes, more little cp3ish lob passes. drew getting the easy Blair weakside rebounds after his guard penetrates.
This is basketball folks.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:22 pm    Post subject:

GQue24 wrote:

Without Kobe running the show and drawing all the attention from oppsoing teams = BYnums ^^ stats and your thoughts about them make no difference. YOu put BYnum alone with Wolves and or Clips and he is not avgeraging Love nor Griffins numbers.


That's your side of the story.

I could argue that Kobe, Pau and Lamar take away touches from Bynum. You just don't know that Bynum can't score 25/10.

This isn't fact, you're just guessing.

However, what I posted about the Clippers having a WORSE record than last year without Blake Griffin is "FACT".

The Wolves only improving by 1 win despite Keving Love's mega stats is "FACT".

The Lakers defensive numbers improving greatly with the return of Bynum to the starting lineup is "FACT".

Quote:

Give it up. Bynum is a role player in LA's attack nothing more, he is replaceable.


Nope.

Go get me some facts, not more of your supposition and I'll think about it.

FACT:
Clippers last year WITHOUT Griffin: 17-19 - 47% wins
Clippers this year WITH Griffin: 12-24 - 33% wins

FACT:
Lakers without Bynum in the Finals: Lost to Celtics
Lakers with Bynum in the Finals: 2x World Championship Lakers.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:38 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
The unknown factor is how Drew would perform if he had the freedom some of these other players have if he wasn't playing next to Odom, Kobe, Pau, and Ron. I think many people here drastically underrate the kind of impact Drew has now and what kind of numbers Drew would put up if he was given his own team (or even put into a similar situation as Kaman/Griffin).


I can understand wondering about the hypothetical of what kind of numbers Drew were to put up if he was given his “own” team. That’s a fair enough question. And, one with no answer. But Griffin’s not playing alone. Eric Gordon’s had a great year, and Baron, well, Baron takes his, but doesn’t really get his. I don’t think I’m underrating the impact Drew has now. He's playing great now. No question about it. One question I asked myself in responding to this speculative thread is, “who do I think has the greater likelihood of missing lots of games due to potential injuries in the future.” And sadly, if I had to guess, I think the answer is Drew. I really, really hope I’m wrong.

LakerSanity wrote:
I love Griffin. However, to me, he's no better than Amare Stoudemire with a better handle. I'll take Drew every day of the week over Amare, and Amare is in the running for MVP right now.


This I don't really understand. Griffin is "no better than Amare?" Do you mean Amar'e as a rookie, or Amar'e right now? Anyway, whether or not Amar'e is in the running for MVP is of little importance to me. That particular award is kind of meaningless in my opinion.

The big difference between Griffin and Amar’e is rebounding. Amar'e is nowhere near the rebounder Griffin is. Griffin's averaging 21ppg and 12.7 rpg. Amar'e's averaging 26.1ppg and 8.9 rpg on 3 more field goal attempts a game. In Amar'e's best year as a rebounder, he averaged 9.6 per. Griffin's rebound rate this year is 19.8, while Amar'e's rebound rate is 13.6. The disparity in rebounding isn't due to the fact that Amar'e takes more jump shots, and thus has less chances to grab offensive boards. Amar'e defensive rebounding rate is 18.9, while Griffin's is 27.4.

And, Griffin is getting better as the season goes on. In the last thirty days, Griffin's averaging 25.1ppg, 14.3rpg, and 4.2apg, which has coincided with the Clippers having some success, finally, in spite of, among several other things, their dreadful coach. The Clips have won 8 of their last 11.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:41 pm    Post subject:

Mick3ns wrote:
I hate threads like these. I always see them as a cheap chance to bash Bynum, who has actually been playing very well lately.

Can't we just be happy with that?


No offense, but huh?

Would you rather have Blake Griffin or Andrew Bynum

First response:

Mick3ns wrote:
Blake of course

He's Franchise player type talent.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:42 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
Mamba3301 wrote:
GQue24 wrote:
Without Kobe running the show and drawing all the attention from oppsoing teams = BYnums ^^ stats and your thoughts about them make no difference. YOu put BYnum alone with Wolves and or Clips and he is not avgeraging Love nor Griffins numbers. Give it up. Bynum is a role player in LA's attack nothing more, he is replaceable.

This.

One is a superstar, one is a role player. But there is no use trying to reason with the Bynum fans...they just keep going in circles. The whole nation sees Blake Griffin as the future of the league. No one in their right mind would pick Bynum over Blake. The Clippers wouldn't even give him up for Melo, a perennial All-star. But delusional Bynum fans will keep arguing otherwise. You ask this question on a main forum and everyone will laugh, it wouldn't even be close.


Considering people here would take Bynum over Dwight Howard, I'm not surprised by this at all.
Gotta agree wit this.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:01 pm    Post subject:

Lowest Merion wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
The unknown factor is how Drew would perform if he had the freedom some of these other players have if he wasn't playing next to Odom, Kobe, Pau, and Ron. I think many people here drastically underrate the kind of impact Drew has now and what kind of numbers Drew would put up if he was given his own team (or even put into a similar situation as Kaman/Griffin).


I can understand wondering about the hypothetical of what kind of numbers Drew were to put up if he was given his “own” team. That’s a fair enough question. And, one with no answer. But Griffin’s not playing alone. Eric Gordon’s had a great year, and Baron, well, Baron takes his, but doesn’t really get his. I don’t think I’m underrating the impact Drew has now. He's playing great now. No question about it. One question I asked myself in responding to this speculative thread is, “who do I think has the greater likelihood of missing lots of games due to potential injuries in the future.” And sadly, if I had to guess, I think the answer is Drew. I really, really hope I’m wrong.

LakerSanity wrote:
I love Griffin. However, to me, he's no better than Amare Stoudemire with a better handle. I'll take Drew every day of the week over Amare, and Amare is in the running for MVP right now.


This I don't really understand. Griffin is "no better than Amare?" Do you mean Amar'e as a rookie, or Amar'e right now? Anyway, whether or not Amar'e is in the running for MVP is of little importance to me. That particular award is kind of meaningless in my opinion.

The big difference between Griffin and Amar’e is rebounding. Amar'e is nowhere near the rebounder Griffin is. Griffin's averaging 21ppg and 12.7 rpg. Amar'e's averaging 26.1ppg and 8.9 rpg on 3 more field goal attempts a game. In Amar'e's best year as a rebounder, he averaged 9.6 per. Griffin's rebound rate this year is 19.8, while Amar'e's rebound rate is 13.6. The disparity in rebounding isn't due to the fact that Amar'e takes more jump shots, and thus has less chances to grab offensive boards. Amar'e defensive rebounding rate is 18.9, while Griffin's is 27.4.

And, Griffin is getting better as the season goes on. In the last thirty days, Griffin's averaging 25.1ppg, 14.3rpg, and 4.2apg, which has coincided with the Clippers having some success, finally, in spite of, among several other things, their dreadful coach. The Clips have won 8 of their last 11.
part of the reason blake gets so many boards is cause the clippers miss so much. remember to be the highest scoring team in the nba you not only have to put up shots but you also have to make them. notice there's a trend. LOVE on a brick layers team also. we see how many boards he's abled to get. make more shots, less rebounds to be had. thats a fact.

now truth be told amare was never a guy that loved boarding. griffin seems to love it. thats why he gets them. its something he likes to do.

and amare during his rookie season had a selfish marbury playing. sure that was marbury's least selfish year aside from his rookie season with kg. but still its starbury at the helm. what do you expect.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:05 pm    Post subject:

Lowest Merion wrote:
I can understand wondering about the hypothetical of what kind of numbers Drew were to put up if he was given his “own” team. That’s a fair enough question. And, one with no answer. But Griffin’s not playing alone. Eric Gordon’s had a great year, and Baron, well, Baron takes his, but doesn’t really get his. I don’t think I’m underrating the impact Drew has now. He's playing great now. No question about it. One question I asked myself in responding to this speculative thread is, “who do I think has the greater likelihood of missing lots of games due to potential injuries in the future.” And sadly, if I had to guess, I think the answer is Drew. I really, really hope I’m wrong.


True, we're all speculating. However, it isn't just about numbers either. Drew is a legit two-way big. His impact doesn't come just in the numbers as Drew has really turned into a good anchor regardless of whether his block averages show for it. On a team where he doesn't compete for touches AND rebounds, I think Drew, ultimately, has the ability to score 25-28 PPG while rebounding 11-14 RPG WHILE being a bigger defensive presence

Gordon and Baron are no Gasol, Kobe, Odom, and Ron. They don't take the ball away from Griffin the way Kobe, Odom, and Ron do. Part of that is pecking order (I think Griffin is already respected by his teammates to where he is high in the pecking order, while Bynum will never be high in the pecking order until Gasol and Kobe are gone). The other part of that is their style of play... Drew is a back to the basket player who needs touches, Griffin isn't - he doesn't dominate the ball and really gets most of his production off offensive boards (no Kaman = higher rebounds), moving off the ball, and fast breaks.

As for the health question, I'd say even. Even if we're ignoring that Griffin missed all of last season, I don't have a lot of faith in that guy staying healthy with how reckless he is jumping all over the place. We all know Drew's history - I still have some faith his health will continue to improve, but I'm not discounting the last 3 years either.

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This I don't really understand. Griffin is "no better than Amare?" Do you mean Amar'e as a rookie, or Amar'e right now? Anyway, whether or not Amar'e is in the running for MVP is of little importance to me. That particular award is kind of meaningless in my opinion.

The big difference between Griffin and Amar’e is rebounding. Amar'e is nowhere near the rebounder Griffin is. Griffin's averaging 21ppg and 12.7 rpg. Amar'e's averaging 26.1ppg and 8.9 rpg on 3 more field goal attempts a game. In Amar'e's best year as a rebounder, he averaged 9.6 per. Griffin's rebound rate this year is 19.8, while Amar'e's rebound rate is 13.6. The disparity in rebounding isn't due to the fact that Amar'e takes more jump shots, and thus has less chances to grab offensive boards. Amar'e defensive rebounding rate is 18.9, while Griffin's is 27.4.

And, Griffin is getting better as the season goes on. In the last thirty days, Griffin's averaging 25.1ppg, 14.3rpg, and 4.2apg, which has coincided with the Clippers having some success, finally, in spite of, among several other things, their dreadful coach. The Clips have won 8 of their last 11.


Defensively, Griffin is much like Amare. The big difference in rebounding, as you pointed out, is offensive rebounds. Amare right now is a better one on one player, while Griffin is a better garbage player. Griffin now plays much like Amare played when he came into the league. I think Griffin has a better handle and is a better play maker, but, at his size, his defense will always be limited (PFS who rely on their hops to play D as opposed to their length/size are never elite defenders in this league). Offensively, I think their ceiling are the same except that maybe Griffin will get a few more assists.

In any case, I don't put Griffin in the Lebron James or Kevin Durant category. I put him just below that. I could see him being one of the better PFs in the game for a long time, but I don't ever see him being in the class of PFs like KG or Gasol, he just doesn't have the height, size or length for that. It's another reason I take Drew - can't teach height/size + decent mobility.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:50 pm    Post subject:

When people start taking Bynum over the likes of Howard, Griffin, etc you already know to not even waste your time responding.

And if that wasn't enough of a hint, reading that Griffin is "no better than Amare" is probably the biggest example to just click off this thread.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:53 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:

True, we're all speculating. However, it isn't just about numbers either. Drew is a legit two-way big. His impact doesn't come just in the numbers as Drew has really turned into a good anchor regardless of whether his block averages show for it.


I completely agree that Drew is a legit two-way big. I don’t recall stating differently. And of course it’s not all about the numbers. I don’t recall stating that either. Though his impact does show up in numbers, depending on which numbers you use. For example, even though it’s a small sample size, Drew has the fourth highest PER of all centers in the league this year and posting a similar PER to as last year, and as we all know, PER doesn’t adequately account for, among other things, defense, which Drew has played very well this year. (Yeah, I know, cue “ (bleep) Hollinger” - not from you LS, just in general).

LakerSanity wrote:
On a team where he doesn't compete for touches AND rebounds, I think Drew, ultimately, has the ability to score 25-28 PPG while rebounding 11-14 RPG WHILE being a bigger defensive presence


I think this is somewhat of an exaggeration of Drew’s potential numbers on a “Drew” team, but that’s fine. But we can disagree; it’s just speculation anyway.

LakerSanity wrote:
As for the health question, I'd say even. Even if we're ignoring that Griffin missed all of last season, I don't have a lot of faith in that guy staying healthy with how reckless he is jumping all over the place. We all know Drew's history - I still have some faith his health will continue to improve, but I'm not discounting the last 3 years either.


I agree that Griffin’s style of play is not exactly conducive to staying healthy. But based on Drew’s history, if I had to hazard a guess, I’d guess that Drew will miss more games in the future. Again, I really, really hope I’m wrong. We’ll just have to wait and see.

LakerSanity wrote:
Defensively, Griffin is much like Amare.


I disagree with this. Amare is 8 years in the league, and has always been known as a major defensive liability, though it appears he’s improved somewhat this year in that category from what I’ve seen. Griffin’s just a rookie. I’m pretty sure his defense will improve. By all accounts, his work ethic is off the charts.

LakerSanity wrote:
The big difference in rebounding, as you pointed out, is offensive rebounds. Amare right now is a better one on one player, while Griffin is a better garbage player. Griffin now plays much like Amare played when he came into the league. Offensively, I think their ceiling are the same except that maybe Griffin will get a few more assists.


Disagree somewhat. I think Amare has already hit his ceiling. Griffin’s only a rookie and already putting up point totals nearing Amare's and is absolutely killing Amare's rebounding numbers. Once Griffin improves his jump shot, which I think he will, he’ll be even more scary than he already is.

LakerSanity wrote:
In any case, I don't put Griffin in the Lebron James or Kevin Durant category. I put him just below that.


Well, that’s pretty good company for a rookie.

LakerSanity wrote:
I could see him being one of the better PFs in the game for a long time, but I don't ever see him being in the class of PFs like KG or Gasol, he just doesn't have the height, size or length for that. It's another reason I take Drew - can't teach height/size + decent mobility.


I agree that Griffin will be a different type of PF than KG or Gasol based solely on their size and length, though I don’t believe that necessarily means he won’t be in the same class of PFs like KG or Gasol, or that he can’t be better. Barkley didn’t need height to be one of the best power forwards in league history (though I think Barkley’s somewhat overrated), and I think the “Griffin is kinda like a taller Barkley” comparison is in the ballpark, or at least near the ballpark.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:07 pm    Post subject:

postandpivot wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
The unknown factor is how Drew would perform if he had the freedom some of these other players have if he wasn't playing next to Odom, Kobe, Pau, and Ron. I think many people here drastically underrate the kind of impact Drew has now and what kind of numbers Drew would put up if he was given his own team (or even put into a similar situation as Kaman/Griffin).

I take Drew . I love Griffin. However, to me, he's no better than Amare Stoudemire with a better handle. I'll take Drew every day of the week over Amare, and Amare is in the running for MVP right now.
lets flip this so those that aren't drew fans can see the point.


KOBE young KOBE. was underrated to an extent. everything was the only reason he can score is because of SHAQQQQQ(in a whiney voice).

I heard AI say it, Vince say it, Tmac Say it, Ray allen said it, Pierce said it.

Media said it.

What did kobe do? put up 62 points while the mavs had less then that in 3 qtrs. with no shaq around. with a lackluster cast of clowns. i mean players.

the guy did nothing but score the second highest point total for a game in NBA HISTORY with the 81 performance for a comeback win. thats all KOBE without shaq could do.

It proved that all those who believed every other superstar that was drafted on to a sucky team would was so much better based on pure numbers. i mean tmac was throwing up 50's in the offs with garrity as his sidekick. Tmac had to be better then KOBE RIGHT? WRONG.

Getting on these bad teams where everything revolves around you. makes your stats Balloon.

and or playing in an uptempo offense can also do that see AMARE, see the matrix with the suns, etc.

thats why if you Reallllly want to talk about starting a franchise. talk about impact. griffin makes a HUGGGGGE impact on the stupid clippers. stupid is for sterling actually not the players. blake is making BD desire to play again. he's making D.jordan want to play harder every night. blakes youthful energy and just natural super energy he brings makes everyone upbeat. i see it.

The guy is a 6'10 charles barkley. thats massive. charles is one of my favorite pf's of all time. and nothing will change that. even if he does say something wreckless about kb or the lakeshow. so what does that tell you how i think of griffin in his first REAL season. funny thing is blake can dribble better then chuck already. he just cant shoot that 3 as well YET.

But again here's the thing you have to ask yourself. THE suns with chuck b had a championship caliber team. but they lost. i dont care who it was too. they lost. WHY? they didn't have a Big man that would deter people. atleast i can say CHuck had back 2 the baket game. so that wasn't necessary from a center if they had one.
Put it this way. if they had mutumbo CHuck would be sitting pretty with atleast 1 ring right now. and thats vs the bulls. i said it. chuck would've beaten mjay.

the thing that ticked me off the most was win miami got beat by the friggin nicks in the first round or was it the 2nd? whatever it was. and that mean tim hardaway and ZO couldn't beat the bulls. they had no answer for zo and zo was sending stuff back. thats exactly what you needed to send the bulls packing.

notice who the bulls beat all those years. no one had a Real center on both ends. if they did the guy wasn't healthy. or the rest of his team sucked.

look throughout history. there have been a lot of LEGENDARY PFs in the game. but the last few we remember that didn't have super teams(KG with his Cs and Mchale/Bird with their C's), Kmalone, Chuck B, and Shawn kemp were legendary players. They couldn't Win it all.

look at how those 3 teams were built around those players. all different. 2 run n gun types. but the sonics were built on defense as well and uptempo win necessary. they had a nice half court game also. suns all run n fun. with chuck b as the half court offense. and Utah with malone as a more Slow it down and play halfcourt hoop team. that could run do to malone being so fast himself. and they were serious about defense.
NON of these guys won. why not?

you cant win without a BIG, Unless you're a Mjay scorer with another lockdown SF defender that can guard pg, sg, sf's, that also runs the offense. the only other mjay scorer we have seen is KOBE Bryant. and he couldn't win without shaq or Gasol+Bynum+LO. thats a super big when you put them all together. since Kobe has never had a Pip side kick. he couldn't pull it off either.

So lets be real here. you're telling me GRiffin is the best to start your franchise with over a healthy BYNUM.
i'll prove you wrong.

Griffin on the sonics in Gp's hayday.

Griffin on the suns in KJ's hayday

Griffin on the jazz in Stocktons hayday.

make sure griffin replaces each super PF.

Will griffin WIn a ship in that era? NOPE. he would lose to mjay just like the rest of them.

now watch this.

BYNUM as the focal point of your team. HEALTHY all season long. remember he's the focal point. the stats you see today would ballooon because of that fact. no matter if you dont have kobe taking away double teams. guys figure out double teams. even elton brand figure them out after a year of it thats how the clippers turned out so well that one year.

So let me get Bynum On the sonics with a Prime Gary the glove payton and no kemp. give me someone like Lamar odom at PF. So you have GP and bynum as the two superstars and LO as the borderline allstar and the rest are role guys.

Give me Bynum and LO on the suns to replace whoever their center was back then and chuck B.

same thing for ostertag and karl malone.

Bynum would be able to beat mjay and pip in 7 games due to his size and ability on both sides.
I'm trying to tell you. there's a reason big guys win ships more then anyone else in the league. bigman oriented teams win. bigman being CENTERS. not pfs. unless like timmy they are actually centers posing as PF's.


You can play what if's all day, but in the end it's your opinion. You THINK Blake on those teams wouldn't beat MJ. You THINK Bynum would (though I think you've lost it). Bynum isn't as good as Ewing, and Ewing never won a title because of the Bulls. And yes, the Knicks had some talent around Ewing. Listen, I like Drew. He's a valuable asset on our team. If you want to take him over Blake, fine. If they were both starting out as rookies maybe I would too. But based on what I've seen of Drew for the past few years (and yeah, his injuries factor in) and Blake this year (plus what I saw in college), I'd take Blake. We'll just agree to disagree.
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revgen
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:09 pm    Post subject:

^He's not talking about Bynum being better than Ewing. Read the post again.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:19 pm    Post subject:

revgen wrote:
^He's not talking about Bynum being better than Ewing. Read the post again.


Oh I know what he was saying. He put together a scenario where he believes Blake on certain teams would not beat the Bulls. Then he puts together a scenario and states he believes Bynum's team WOULD beat the Bulls. I'm saying the Knicks back then were very talented AND that Ewing was better than Drew is, yet the Knicks couldn't beat the Bulls. Now we're supposed to believe a Drew led team would have beat the Bulls? Hey, gotta love free speech.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:22 pm    Post subject:

cirehawk wrote:
revgen wrote:
^He's not talking about Bynum being better than Ewing. Read the post again.


Oh I know what he was saying. He put together a scenario where he believes Blake on certain teams would not beat the Bulls. Then he puts together a scenario and states he believes Bynum's team WOULD beat the Bulls. I'm saying the Knicks back then were very talented AND that Ewing was better than Drew is, yet the Knicks couldn't beat the Bulls. Now we're supposed to believe a Drew led team would have beat the Bulls? Hey, gotta love free speech.


The Knicks back then were a good defensive team, but a crappy offensive team. When John Starks is your 2nd best offensive player, you're not going to beat the Bulls.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:23 pm    Post subject:

revgen wrote:
cirehawk wrote:
revgen wrote:
^He's not talking about Bynum being better than Ewing. Read the post again.


Oh I know what he was saying. He put together a scenario where he believes Blake on certain teams would not beat the Bulls. Then he puts together a scenario and states he believes Bynum's team WOULD beat the Bulls. I'm saying the Knicks back then were very talented AND that Ewing was better than Drew is, yet the Knicks couldn't beat the Bulls. Now we're supposed to believe a Drew led team would have beat the Bulls? Hey, gotta love free speech.


The Knicks back then were a good defensive team, but a crappy offensive team. When John Starks is your 2nd best offensive player, you're not going to beat the Bulls.


No way no how.
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