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| Where does Drew REALLY rank among Centers? |
| #1 |
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5% |
[ 14 ] |
| #2 |
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54% |
[ 146 ] |
| #3 |
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14% |
[ 39 ] |
| #4 (please explain why) |
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5% |
[ 14 ] |
| #5 (please explain why) |
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7% |
[ 20 ] |
| Below #5 (Bynum haters only w/out explanation) |
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13% |
[ 36 ] |
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| Total Votes : 269 |
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| Author |
Message |
LA_Lakers_Rule
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 Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:53 am Post subject: Where does Drew REALLY rank among NBA Centers? |
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Where exactly does Drew rank among NBA Centers?
I thought I'd use J.C. Smith's post ENTERED Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:44 pm LINK to reflect on Drew versus Howard a moment since the topic is so rampant on this board about wanting to bring Howard to the Lakers....
What I've done is broken down the DEFENSIVE differences between the two comparing Drew to the two time DPOY award winner the LAST TWO YEARS (since J.C. Smith has so kindly provided these stats):
| J.C. Smith wrote: | The game is two ways. Here's the current defensive numbers on all of those guys you mentioned as of today:
Blocked Shot Percentage:
Bynum: 4.7%
Duncan: 4.1%
Howard: 3.8%
Jefferson: 3.4%
Lopez: 2.7%
Chandler: 2.6%
Noah: 2.6%
Horford: 2%
Nene: 1.6%
eFG Allowed:
Bynum: 45.1%
Howard: 48.2%
Horford: 48.2%
Duncan: 48.7%
Jefferson: 48.9%
Lopez: 49.3%
Nene: 49.3%
Chandler: 50.4%
Noah: 57.5%
PER48 Allowed:
Bynum: 10.4
Howard: 13.2
Duncan: 15.8
Chandler: 17.0
Horford: 17.1
Lopez: 17.1
Jefferson: 17.2
Nene: 17.6
Noah: 20.2
PER48 Differential:
Howard: +13
Bynum: +10.8
Horford: +7.2
Duncan: +7.0
Nene: +5.2
Chandler: +2.1
Jefferson: +2
Lopez: +1.4
Noah: +0.7
Teams +/- Points Allowed When they are on the court: (Lower is better)
Chandler: -6.1
Bynum: -4.9
Duncan: -4.9
Horford: -0.6
Nene: -0.5
Noah: +6.5
Lopez: +2.7
Howard: +4.8
Jefferson: +10.7 |
The "% ratio" used to compare the two players is based on how much better or worse Bynum is compared to Howard:
Blocked Shot Percentage: Statistically BYNUM BETTER by .9% - % ratio: 13% BETTER
eFG Allowed: Statistically BYNUM BETTER by 3.1% - % ratio: 7% BETTER
PER48 Differential: Statistically BYNUM BETTER by 2.8 - % ratio: 22% BETTER
PER48 Differential: Statistically BYNUM WORSE by 2.2 - % ratio: 17% WORSE
Teams +/- Points Allowed: Statistically BYNUM BETTER by 9.7 - % ratio: 10% BETTER
CONCLUSION" (based on % ratio difference *explained below): Bynum +13% + 7% +22% - 17% + 10% = +35% better DEFENSIVELY percentage wise based on the STATS PROVIDED....
I am fully aware of the nature of making an evaluation of this nature, but the numbers speak for themselves and the corollary I've used to make a comparison between the two players in regards to "% ratio differential" I contend is a reasonable method of quantifying a measurable difference in my view as opposed to having an unending report by everyone who will say this is not what they "observe" which DOES inherently fail on the basis of an "objective" evaluation that will vary in accordance with how people subjectively vary as individuals....
And some people complain when posters like myself suggest Bynum is in the top-3 of all Centers in the NBA....
And then we hear so much from a lot on this board that TITLES ARE THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS.... Well now, Bynum is TWO UP on Dwight and counting in that regard... So the Bynum critics have NOTHING to say on this point....
... and of course... we will hear from the the STAT HATERS (whenever the numbers disagree with their own POV that is) but the fact remains that the alternative to the stats is only "personal observation" .... and the equal fact remains that "personal observation" is the result of every persons unique experience as a consequence of how each person interprets what they observe and will inherently vary and be uniquely different for each and every person, as a result a limited consensus is more often the case as a result of this uniquely inherent built in "bias".... on the other hand, well grounded stats leave aside THIS inherent personal "bias" thus common ground is much more possible as a result of a more objective approach...
* The "% ratio" is obviously the % differential and self explanatory except in the case of +/- which might need explaining as it is admittedly bit creative --- in the case of +/- we have the difference in percentages compared to each players teams scoring production (Lakers 102 ppg, Magic 100 ppg) and rounded the difference because it is clearly a "rough" comparison in this case... (Bynum 4.9/102=.048 rounded +5%, Dwight 4.8/100=4.8 rounded -5% = +10% for Drew)... So while all the other "ratio differentiation" is based on sound stats and this last ratio is perhaps a bit creative like I said it is still a reasonable comparison to offer as opposed to "subjective opinion" that can be debated until the cows come home....
I am often accused of expounding hyperbole when it comes to Bynum... on that point, I WOULD SAY THAT DREW THIS YEAR HAS PERFORMED IN AN EXEMPLARY FASHION ON THE DEFENSIVE END WHILE HE HAS BEEN RECOVERING FROM SURGERY OVER THE SUMMER AS COMPARED TO WHAT WE SEE THAT THE DPOY PLAYER THE LAST TWO YEARS IN THE NBA HAS PROVIDED ON THE DEFENSIVE END THIS YEAR...
I think it is certainly an arguable point that Drew is perhaps in the TOP-2 as far as Centers in the NBA are concerned considering that even if the highly regarded Yao is healthy his defense will not approach the level of EITHER of these players....
... I can say this in all honesty because I don't think there is another Center in the NBA other than Howard who is better DEFENSIVELY...
... OR AT THE BARE MINIMUM MY STATING THAT BYNUM IS A TOP-3 CENTER OVERALL IN THE NBA (like I so often have) would appear to be a SOUND conclusion even though many have often disagreed in the past with my conclusion....
.... It seems obvious to me that Bynum is minimally a TOP-3 OR BETTER CENTER ON THE DEFENSIVE END BASED ON THE NUMBERS....
..... Does ANYONE DISPUTE THIS? 
..... For those that question this let's look at ALL of the Centers DEFENSIVELY and compare using the stats J.C. Smith was good enough to provide in another thread that I've obviously been inspired to use to make my points..... I know we are going back to statistical analysis once again that some hate so much when it doesn't agree with their perceptions... so be it....
Blocked Shot Percentage:
# 1 Bynum: 4.7%
# 2 Duncan: 4.1%
# 3 Howard: 3.8%
# 4 Jefferson: 3.4%
# 5 Lopez: 2.7%
# 6 Chandler: 2.6%
# 7 Noah: 2.6%
# 8 Horford: 2%
# 9 Nene: 1.6%
eFG Allowed:
# 1 Bynum: 45.1%
# 2 Howard: 48.2%
# 3 Horford: 48.2%
# 4 Duncan: 48.7%
# 5 Jefferson: 48.9%
# 6 Lopez: 49.3%
# 7 Nene: 49.3%
# 8 Chandler: 50.4%
# 9 Noah: 57.5%
PER48 Allowed:
# 1 Bynum: 10.4
# 2 Howard: 13.2
# 3 Duncan: 15.8
# 4 Chandler: 17.0
# 5 Horford: 17.1
# 6 Lopez: 17.1
# 7 Jefferson: 17.2
# 8 Nene: 17.6
# 9 Noah: 20.2
PER48 Differential:
# 1 Howard: +13
# 2 Bynum: +10.8
# 3 Horford: +7.2
# 4 Duncan: +7.0
# 5 Nene: +5.2
# 6 Chandler: +2.1
# 7 Jefferson: +2
# 8 Lopez: +1.4
# 9 Noah: +0.7
Teams +/- Points Allowed When they are on the court: (Lower is better)
# 1 Chandler: -6.1
# 2 Bynum: -4.9
# 3 Duncan: -4.9
# 4 Horford: -0.6
# 5 Nene: -0.5
# 6 Noah: +6.5
# 7 Lopez: +2.7
# 8 Howard: +4.8
# 9 Jefferson: +10.7
Let's TOTAL the RANKING for EACH CENTER (take the total ranked positions and divide by the number of categories listed):
Ranking (smaller number best):
1. Bynum - 7 (7/5) = 1.4
2. Howard - 16 (16/5) = 3.2
2. Duncan - 16 (16/5) = 3.2
3. Horford - 23 (23/5) = 4.6
4. Chandler - 25 (25/5) = 5.0
5. Lopez - 32 (32/5) = 6.4
5. Jefferson - 32 (32/5) = 6.4
6. Nene - 34 (34/5) = 6.8
7. Noah - 40 (40/5) = 8.0
I understand that people can say that this representation maybe be problematic at some level however it simply CANNOT BE SO FAR OFF THAT IT HAS NO MEANING on the other hand EITHER....
Clearly as we can see.... BYNUM IS NO WORSE THAN A TOP-3 CENTER DEFENSIVELY...
... NOW.... DOES ANYONE DISAGREE? .... If so PLEASE EXPLAIN....
... So then let's consider OFFENSE.... I think we can all agree that on a team like the Lakers (unlike a roster like for example the Magic or many other teams) that has players like Kobe and Gasol then Bynum's offensive production will be reduced as he will sacrifice his offense because other players will get many more shot attempts than Drew will....
... Back to the numbers... Let's just extrapolate out what Bynum would produce scoring wise if he had say approaching 16 attempts per game similar to the number of attempts that Lopez or Jefferson will take on average.... Bynum averages 7.9 attempts per game... As we can see we could approximately double Bynum's scoring production from 11.4 to ~22.8 ppg on average....
Where would 22.8 ppg rank Bynum offensively among Centers in the NBA? ... can we agree perhaps no worse than TOP-3 once again? 
Among Centers only Amare at 25.9 and Dwight slightly better at 23.2 would surpass Drew at ~23 ppg given ~16 attempts per game like most other Centers get and Amare actually gets on average over 19 attempts per game and I would add that Amare simply will not rank on ANY top-10 list defensively...
So if Drew is arguably a TOP-2 DEFENSIVE Center and arguably no worse than a TOP-3 OFFENSIVE Center (given enough attempts)... THEN SHOULDN'T WE APPRECIATE DREW MORE THAN MANY DO ON THIS BOARD?
I would say that I stand on good stead when I say Drew is certainly minimally a TOP-3 CENTER in the NBA overall and likely BETTER than that actually.... In my view there is only ONE Center that is arguably better and that would be Dwight... and at just 23 years of age Drew is over 2 years younger... I for one am very happy to have Drew as my Laker Center and I still contend that Drew may prove to be the VERY BEST center in the NBA at some stage during his career.... I see nothing at all wrong with that and choose to root for Drew accomplishing this at some point.... I frankly do not relish the idea of watching Drew become one of the most dominant Center in the NBA on another team....
Would ANYONE ranking Bynum below #3 PLEASE for the sake of clarity be kind enough to explain WHY?
Any more votes than there are explanations in this thread for the "Below #5" selection can be considered nothing other than a selection that provides an opportunity to tabulate the actual number of "Bynum haters" on LG in my view...  ... because in my opinion after reading what I've got to say here (with the help of J.C. Smith) anyone voting Drew that low has got to be just that in my book...
... I hope J.C. doesn't mind my using those stats posted (that info provided is what makes my poll and points possible)... 
Edit: Fixed error in total ranking for Lopez (formerly 5.0)
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Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... 
Last edited by LA_Lakers_Rule on Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:40 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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GSDunk
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a better poll.....
How many LG posters will actually read LLR's entire post without falling asleep and understanding fully what he's talking about??
....1 poster
....2 posters
....more than 5
....nobody |
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JUST-MING
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| With the role players, like Marcus Camby. |
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OregonLakerGuy
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| This will not end well. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| GSDunk wrote: | Here's a better poll.....
How many LG posters will actually read LLR's entire post without falling asleep and understanding fully what he's talking about??
....1 poster
....2 posters
....more than 5
....nobody |
That would be a good poll... .... not that the post is really difficult to understand because IT ISN'T!!!... actually quite simple and straight forward to be honest (if you bothered to read it  )... but I'll agree that it is for only those who have a lot of time on their hands... 
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Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ...
Last edited by LA_Lakers_Rule on Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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babyskyhook
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| GSDunk wrote: | Here's a better poll.....
How many LG posters will actually read LLR's entire post without falling asleep and understanding fully what he's talking about??
....1 poster
....2 posters
....more than 5
....nobody |
Ouch. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| babyskyhook wrote: | | GSDunk wrote: | Here's a better poll.....
How many LG posters will actually read LLR's entire post without falling asleep and understanding fully what he's talking about??
....1 poster
....2 posters
....more than 5
....nobody |
Ouch. |
GSDunk might have been able to read half of the post in the time it took to post that... (depending upon what the ratio of reading speed to typing speed that would be factored in that is)....
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Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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GSDunk
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | GSDunk wrote: | Here's a better poll.....
How many LG posters will actually read LLR's entire post without falling asleep and understanding fully what he's talking about??
....1 poster
....2 posters
....more than 5
....nobody |
That would be a good poll... .... not that the post is really difficult to understand because IT ISN'T!!!... actually quite simple and straight forward to be honest (if you bothered to read it )...but I'll agree that it is for only those who have a lot of time on their hands... |
Classy response Rule  |
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st3vo
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| its funny that Drew is even a topic of concern. anything is better than Kwame. even a one-legged Bynum. |
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babyskyhook
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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He's a huge step down from Dwight, and depending on what you are factoring in, you can make arguments for others.
Your stats are nice, Rule, but how about actual PRODUCTION ? PPG, RPG, BPG, etc- Dwight delivers at levels we've NEVER seen from Andrew.
Add in durability (Dwight is an iron man and Drew is, well, Drew) and it's not even close.
In a vacuum, where durability doesn't matter, I'd put him # 2 behind Dwight.
But in the real world, durability matters, and thus guys like Noah, Horford (and if we're only talking about this year and maybe next) Timmy enter into the discussion.
I like Bynum better than all of those guys if he can stay healthy, but I put him at # 3 b/c I think a random NBA GM would probably pick one of those guys (depending on their system and circumstances) over Drew due to injury concerns.
But b/c I think Drew is the better player than any but Dwight when he's healthy, I gave those guys (collectively) the # 2 slot and put Drew at 3. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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For this season, I would take him over anyone not named Howard or Duncan.
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babyskyhook
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | babyskyhook wrote: | | GSDunk wrote: | Here's a better poll.....
How many LG posters will actually read LLR's entire post without falling asleep and understanding fully what he's talking about??
....1 poster
....2 posters
....more than 5
....nobody |
Ouch. |
GSDunk might have been able to read half of the post in the time it took to post that... (depending upon what the ratio of reading speed to typing speed that would be factored in that is).... |
Touche'. well-played Rule. |
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babyskyhook
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | For this season, I would take him over anyone not named Howard or Duncan. |
Agreed.
Stay healthy Drew. |
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Rick12322
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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With all the disruptions to his development he's not going to be number 1 this year. Talent wise he's the best center in the game, just needs consecutive years in top physical shape to begin to realize it. Think about that one for a while, at 25, three years from his Prime  , two healthy years under his belt, played out in top shape. He will challenge Dwight for #1, IMO. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| GSDunk wrote: | | LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | GSDunk wrote: | Here's a better poll.....
How many LG posters will actually read LLR's entire post without falling asleep and understanding fully what he's talking about??
....1 poster
....2 posters
....more than 5
....nobody |
That would be a good poll... .... not that the post is really difficult to understand because IT ISN'T!!!... actually quite simple and straight forward to be honest (if you bothered to read it )...but I'll agree that it is for only those who have a lot of time on their hands... |
Classy response Rule |
Thanks GS... Oh and I'll be happy to explain anything that you didn't "understand fully" as far as what I'm talking about... ... that is if you haven't fallen asleep by now... 
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Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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KobeRe-Loaded
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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Depends really - pure center then Bynum is top 3 or 4 for sure.
I would easily take Dwight Howard, Joakim Noah over him.
But if he is mixed in with guys like Al Horford, Tim Duncan, Amare, Pau etc. who are combo PF/C then maybe top 15.
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Nobody
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| GSDunk wrote: | Here's a better poll.....
How many LG posters will actually read LLR's entire post without falling asleep and understanding fully what he's talking about??
....1 poster
....2 posters
....more than 5
....nobody |
The endless... usage... of ... irritates me to no... avail... so I rarely... read... the entire... context of his posts.... because it's... extremely hard...... to do so.... without going.... completely mad.....
That plus the constant use of projections and hypotheticals.
But I'll play along, I think he's one of the best defensive centers in the league (along with Howard, Bogut, the numbers would suggest Chandler also, but he doesn't quite "do it" for me, Perkins and some others I unintentionally left out). He's also one of the best offensive centers. But all of this occurs in very limited minutes, so until he can go for more than 30 minutes for more than 70 games a season, I find it extremely hard to rank him in the top 3 anything.
When he does get his health in order and starts playing consistently for longer stretches I see no reason why he wouldn't be at worst the second best center (with Howard being no.1) eventually. But the wait is now in it's 4th season so I'm slowly running out of patience. Still optimistic though and will be until his contract is up. |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeRe-Loaded wrote: | Depends really - pure center then Bynum is top 3 or 4 for sure.
I would easily take Dwight Howard, Joakim Noah over him.
But if he is mixed in with guys like Al Horford, Tim Duncan, Amare, Pau etc. who are combo PF/C then maybe top 15. |
Agreed with the bolded. I think that the line between PF/C is fuzzy at best, just as it is between SG/SF. IMO, there are 3 classifications in the NBA...PGs, Wings, & Bigs. |
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babyskyhook
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Rick12322 wrote: | | With all the disruptions to his development he's not going to be number 1 this year. Talent wise he's the best center in the game, just needs consecutive years in top physical shape to begin to realize it. Think about that one for a while, at 25, three years from his Prime , two healthy years under his belt, played out in top shape. He will challenge Dwight for #1, IMO. |
Have you seen Dwight play this year ? |
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Conker
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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2nd.
Howard is the #1 Center in the NBA. Bynum is a good Center and all-around player but Howard is Force of Nature in the defensive end.
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| JUST-MING wrote: | | With the role players, like Marcus Camby. |
So JUST-MING... was that YOUR explanation for the one vote for #4?
.... care to elaborate?
I didn't see Camby's name on any of those lists posted above for defense and if we look at points scored Camby ranks #39 among all NBA Centers which would mean that at least 9 of those players (probably more) are coming off the bench and producing more than Camby is at Center on the offensive end....
So where exactly do you rank Camby? ... just curious....
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Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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JUST-MING
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | So where exactly do you rank Camby? |
With the other 26-28 MPG guys; such as Tyson Chandler (28 MPG), Marcus Camby (28 MPG), Marcin Gortat (26 MPG), Roy Hibbert (27 MPG), Javale McGee (26 MPG), Demarcus Cousins (27 MPG).
Just to put an end the delusion that you have regarding Andrew being a 23 PPG scorer. How many players in history can average that many points in only 26 minutes? None. Kobe is barely averaging 25 PPG in 33 minutes.
Last edited by JUST-MING on Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:40 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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kaoss128
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | GSDunk wrote: | | LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | GSDunk wrote: | Here's a better poll.....
How many LG posters will actually read LLR's entire post without falling asleep and understanding fully what he's talking about??
....1 poster
....2 posters
....more than 5
....nobody |
That would be a good poll... .... not that the post is really difficult to understand because IT ISN'T!!!... actually quite simple and straight forward to be honest (if you bothered to read it )...but I'll agree that it is for only those who have a lot of time on their hands... |
Classy response Rule |
Thanks GS... Oh and I'll be happy to explain anything that you didn't "understand fully" as far as what I'm talking about... ... that is if you haven't fallen asleep by now... |
So how about a short summary? |
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deal
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| GSDunk wrote: | Here's a better poll.....
How many LG posters will actually read LLR's entire post without falling asleep and understanding fully what he's talking about??
....1 poster
....2 posters
....more than 5
....nobody |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeRe-Loaded wrote: | Depends really - pure center then Bynum is top 3 or 4 for sure.
I would easily take Dwight Howard, Joakim Noah over him.
But if he is mixed in with guys like Al Horford, Tim Duncan, Amare, Pau etc. who are combo PF/C then maybe top 15. |
I'm not sure what your point is "mixed in with combo PF/C" players when Drew is clearly a Center all the way...
... So apparently you are one of the two "below #5" voters and in as much as you posted your reasons then your NOT a "Bynum hater" necessarily... as I appreciate the fact you've owned up and posted an explanation...
Back to your explanation however... you've mentioned TWO you would "easily" take over Drew that being Dwight and Noah... yet your ranking Drew no better than #15 apparently...
It is interesting your taking Noah over Drew when in fact Moah is not much of an offensive threat at all thus his forte is clearly defense... and...
.... you might notice that of the FIVE defensive categories above Noah was DEAD LAST IN THREE OF THEM and in the OTHER TWO HE WAS IN THE BOTTOM HALF of the list... I'll admit that surprised me... but there is no question that statistically there are a number of Centers apparently BETTER than Noah who's claim to fame is DEFENSE...
I am frankly at a loss how you could even consider ranking Drew #15 as you do among Centers in the NBA.... I will say I'm certainly happy to know your not the Laker GM with that in mind...
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Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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