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Where does Drew REALLY rank among NBA Centers?
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Where does Drew REALLY rank among Centers?

[ 14 ]

54%

[ 146 ]

14%

[ 39 ]

#4 (please explain why)

[ 14 ]

#5 (please explain why)

[ 20 ]

Below #5 (Bynum haters only w/out explanation)

13%

[ 36 ]

Total Votes : 269

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KobeRe-Loaded
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:49 pm Post subject:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

KobeRe-Loaded wrote:

Depends really - pure center then Bynum is top 3 or 4 for sure.
I would easily take Dwight Howard, Joakim Noah over him.

But if he is mixed in with guys like Al Horford, Tim Duncan, Amare, Pau etc. who are combo PF/C then maybe top 15.

I'm not sure what your point is "mixed in with combo PF/C" players when Drew is clearly a Center all the way...

... So apparently you are one of the two "below #5" voters and in as much as you posted your reasons then your NOT a "Bynum hater" necessarily... as I appreciate the fact you've owned up and posted an explanation...

Back to your explanation however... you've mentioned TWO you would "easily" take over Drew that being Dwight and Noah... yet your ranking Drew no better than #15 apparently...

It is interesting your taking Noah over Drew when in fact Moah is not much of an offensive threat at all thus his forte is clearly defense... and...

.... you might notice that of the FIVE defensive categories above Noah was DEAD LAST IN THREE OF THEM and in the OTHER TWO HE WAS IN THE BOTTOM HALF of the list... I'll admit that surprised me... but there is no question that statistically there are a number of Centers apparently BETTER than Noah who's claim to fame is DEFENSE...

I am frankly at a loss how you could even consider ranking Drew #15 as you do among Centers in the NBA.... I will say I'm certainly happy to know your not the Laker GM with that in mind...

Too bad you can't see who voted BUT I DIDN'T bother to even vote!

Too bad we can't do a what if scenario but I would take Joakim Noah over Bynum anyday of the week.

A guy like Noah playing Center - doing all the dirty work, blocking shots, and rebounding like no tomorrow - this Laker team would break the Bulls 72 wins!
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:58 pm Post subject:

Bynum is easily the best overall center in the western conference. Dwight is the best center overall in the NBA.

LA_Lakers_Rule
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:00 pm Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

So where exactly do you rank Camby?

With the other 26-28 MPG guys; such as Tyson Chandler (28 MPG), Marcus Camby (28 MPG), Marcin Gortat (26 MPG), Roy Hibbert (27 MPG), Javale McGee (26 MPG), Demarcus Cousins (27 MPG).

Just to put an end the delusion that you have regarding Andrew being a 23 PPG scorer. How many players in history can average that many points in only 26 minutes? None. Kobe is barely averaging 25 PPG in 33 minutes.

You apparently didn't read my post:

Quote:

Let's just extrapolate out what Bynum would produce scoring wise if he had say approaching 16 attempts per game similar to the number of attempts that Lopez or Jefferson will take on average.... Bynum averages 7.9 attempts per game... As we can see we could approximately double Bynum's scoring production from 11.4 to ~22.8 ppg on average....

I'm honestly surprise at you JUST-MING... I've always held your opinion in VERY HIGH REGARD (and still do of course) but I'm not sure why your presuming just 26 minutes per game here... and I have to say frankly disappointed that you've suggested my conclusions are "delusional" when we all know what I'm basing my opinion on is increased MPG that would go hand in hand with increased number of attempts....

Do you believe that Drew will NEVER be able to play more MPG that this?

Of course we ALL KNOW that players CANNOT score that much playing such LIMITED MINUTES...

.... I am obviously offering an evaluation of Bynum's offensive capability outside of the prism of LIMITED MINUTES of which are clearly an artifact due to the situation regarding the rotations being used on the Lakers and the fact Drew has been getting his timing and conditioning back following surgery this year.... There is no reason to believe that Drew cannot approach the MPG that Lopez or Jefferson plays (~35 MPG) at some point in the future... notice both of these are players I noted in my post above...

It is not "delusional" to expect Drew as a "starter" to some day exceed all of those players you've mentioned as far as MPG is concerned at some point in his career going forward... and what I'm suggesting is what Bynum IS CAPABLE of under the conditions of playing similar minutes as Lopez or Jefferson JUST AS I ORIGINALLY POSTED....

... ALL OF THOSE PLAYERS YOU'VE POSTED ARE SUBS (except for one inconsistent rookie).... Bynum is a 23 year old starter with every expectations to increase his minutes on the floor...
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Omar Little
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:00 pm Post subject:

KobeRe-Loaded wrote:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

KobeRe-Loaded wrote:

Noah has a great motor and does a lot of the dirty work for sure, but he has some real liabilities relative to a guy like Drew. He's not a great man defender in the post, as he lacks size to muscle for position. This is what makes guys like Drew and Perkins valuable. They not only have the length to bother shots, but the bulk to deny position. Noah works hard, but against true post guys, he's at a physical disadvantage, and effort will only make up so much of it. Drew could emulate Noah's motor more, but Noah will never be able to emulate Drew's physical gifts (longer and bigger).

On offense, Noah is a garbage man, sort of a Marcus Camby type. That is good and helpful, but not the value of a true post man, which he is not. Drew can score off the garbage plays and feeds over the top that Noah gets, but Noah cannot create his own offense down low like Drew.

Plus, you have to look at usage. Kobe and Pau are true, all world offensive threats, and LA has a ton of other weapons. Boozer and Rose are nice, but not kobe and Pau, and the rest of the Bulls team is not as offensively gifted as the Lakers. Noah gets more touches. In LA, he probably wouldn't. Conversely, it's likely Drew's usage would rise in Chicago (probably at Boozer's expense).

As for the 72, that takes a committed team, not just one guy. Even Kobe hasn't gone all-out, 72 wins-style this year. Adding Noah wouldn't change that. We can argue wins and losses speculatively, but assuming 72 with Noah replacing Drew is quite hyperbolic, and not real supportable.
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JUST-MING
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:02 pm Post subject:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

I'm not sure why your presuming just 26 minutes per game here, ... Bynum is a 23 year old

In bold is why.

KobeRe-Loaded
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:05 pm Post subject:

24 wrote:

KobeRe-Loaded wrote:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

KobeRe-Loaded wrote:

This is part of my reasoning on why I would take Noah. He would not gripe about touches - which Bynum already has done.

On top of this - for some reason people think Bynum will one day play 35 mpg - he can't and his body won't let him.

Noah prior to his injury was averaging 35 mpg - last year in his breakout season he avg 30.
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:07 pm Post subject:

I think in terms of talent he up there, he obviously has great size and good length for a C, his D has improved a lot recently actually, but as ever the concern is durability. Now i'm not blaming him for the injuries, having team-mates crash into his knees on 2 separate occasions isn't his fault and you can't say that's a biological fault, but you still have to assess the toll that you think that has taken on his long term health if we're evaluating him as a whole. I think he's got very good footwork and as previously mentioned his length allows him to be an effective finisher of lobs and put-backs, but due to durability concerns for now i couldn't say any higher than 3. Howard is an undoubted number 1, then make your next 3 out of Noah, Drew and Horford. _________________ Lakers, Chargers, Dodgers, Arsenal FC. Mamba Forever The Marathon Continues Still I Rise

Rick12322
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:08 pm Post subject:

babyskyhook wrote:

Rick12322 wrote:

With all the disruptions to his development he's not going to be number 1 this year. Talent wise he's the best center in the game, just needs consecutive years in top physical shape to begin to realize it. Think about that one for a while, at 25, three years from his Prime

, two healthy years under his belt, played out in top shape. He will challenge Dwight for #1, IMO.

Have you seen Dwight play this year ?

Yes. And I maintain what I said based on my evaluation of talent. Talent = raw materials to work with. Bynum's talent >> Howard's, IMO.

JUST-MING
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:10 pm Post subject:

Rick12322 wrote:

Talent = raw materials to work with.

Talent is a combination of athleticism and skill level.

Rick12322
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:11 pm Post subject:

Nice work Rule.

babyskyhook
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:13 pm Post subject:

Rick12322 wrote:

babyskyhook wrote:

Rick12322 wrote:

, two healthy years under his belt, played out in top shape. He will challenge Dwight for #1, IMO.

Have you seen Dwight play this year ?

Yes. And I maintain what I said based on my evaluation of talent. Talent = raw materials to work with. Bynum's talent >> Howard's, IMO.

OK- we'll agree to disagree then, as Dwight's raw materials outstrip Drew's IMO.

BUt we know where we both stand here, so it's all good.

Just didn't know if you'd seen Dwight play this year, as his offensive game has taken a substantial leap forward.

LA_Lakers_Rule
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:17 pm Post subject:

kaoss128 wrote:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

GSDunk wrote:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

GSDunk wrote:

Here's a better poll.....

How many LG posters will actually read LLR's entire post without falling asleep and understanding fully what he's talking about??

....1 poster
....2 posters
....more than 5
....nobody

That would be a good poll...

.... not that the post is really difficult to understand because IT ISN'T!!!... actually quite simple and straight forward to be honest (if you bothered to read it

)...but I'll agree that it is for only those who have a lot of time on their hands...

Classy response Rule

Thanks GS... Oh and I'll be happy to explain anything that you didn't "understand fully" as far as what I'm talking about...

... that is if you haven't fallen asleep by now...

So how about a short summary?

Absent all the statistical background (which is important for clarity actually) I'll give it a try:

As far as defense is concerned where Drew compares statistically with the player ranked second:

Quote:

CONCLUSION" (based on % ratio difference *explained below): Bynum +13% + 7% +22% - 17% + 10% = +35% better DEFENSIVELY percentage wise based on the STATS PROVIDED....

Comparing Drew to ALL players posted regarding defense among all the lists combined:

Quote:

Ranking (smaller number best):
1. Bynum - 7 (7/5) = 1.4
2. Howard - 16 (16/5) = 3.2
2. Duncan - 16 (16/5) = 3.2
3. Horford - 23 (23/5) = 4.6
4. Lopez - 25 (25/5) = 5.0
4. Chandler - 25 (25/5) = 5.0
5. Jefferson - 32 (32/5) = 6.4
6. Nene - 34 (34/5) = 6.8
7. Noah - 40 (40/5) = 8.0

Considering OFFENSE as far as what Drew's potential is offensively given more mpg and more touches....

Quote:

Among Centers only Amare at 25.9 and Dwight slightly better at 23.2 would surpass Drew at ~23 ppg given ~16 attempts per game like most other Centers get and Amare actually gets on average over 19 attempts per game and I would add that Amare simply will not rank on ANY top-10 list defensively...

HOWS THAT?

... hope that helps you out...

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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:18 pm Post subject:

Rick12322 wrote:

babyskyhook wrote:

Rick12322 wrote:

, two healthy years under his belt, played out in top shape. He will challenge Dwight for #1, IMO.

Have you seen Dwight play this year ?

Yes. And I maintain what I said based on my evaluation of talent. Talent = raw materials to work with. Bynum's talent >> Howard's, IMO.

Andrew has back to the basket post moves which not many NBA players have now days. Dwight may not have that skill set but he has other skills such as explosive step facing the basket. Does Andrew have moves when he is facing the basket? I haven't seen alot of those.

Also superior athleticsm enables Dwight to get garbage baskets more often.

Its such a common fallacy to people say Dwight lacks moves, or less talented etc. You don't become #1 center on just pure athleticism alone.

But anyways, last poll on LG showed 95% of players voting for Dwight. Thats on a Lakers board. In the real world, that number would be closer to 100%.
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:21 pm Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

I'm not sure why your presuming just 26 minutes per game here, ... Bynum is a 23 year old

In bold is why.

You do realize that Drew will not remain 23 years old, RIGHT?

... and armed with the knowledge that he WILL grow older and in so doing MATURE as a player is it reasonable to presume Drew's MPG will increase not only because of maturity but because of improved health as well?

It is not reasonable to conclude that "maturity" and "health" will remain a CONSTANT... Do you agree?
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Last edited by LA_Lakers_Rule on Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

LoyalLakerfan44
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:23 pm Post subject:

In a league where true centers are rare Bynum is very good, in the past he would have been less than average. Most of the names mentioned (exception Howard) are basically PF's that fill the center position. Truthfully he is playing against much smaller players every night. For that reason his statistical numbers should be much higher than what he has for the competition he faces. Put Bynum against the Nate Thurmons, the Artist Gilmore's or the Laniers of the past and he doesn't stand a chance, and those were good centers not all time greats. By drafting Bynum the Lakers knew that physically there would be few like him for years to come, and that was a smart. Too bad Oden has not been able to compete much, imho he would be someone Bynum's numbers could trully tested against.

Rick12322
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:28 pm Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:

Rick12322 wrote:

Talent = raw materials to work with.

Talent is a combination of athleticism and skill level.

no. skill is the results of how much work you are able to tap out of your talent.

Talent = Height, length, IQ, athleticism, natural ability to shoot, catch, throw, control your body in a variety of ways. You have to have that base before you can get the skills. It's given to you, you're born with it in varying degrees or not at all.

Bynum has shown athleticism, but we also know it hasn't been fully developed because of the several injuries. He also had a history of not being a very active person. But he was born with the athleticism because we've seen it. He's way behind the curve in terms of fully developing his physical abilities because of his pre-basketball, sedentary lifestyle, and post basketball injuries constantly disrupting the process of building muscle memory and peaking physically.

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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:36 pm Post subject:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

Is it reasonable to presume Drew's MPG will increase not only because of maturity but because of improved health as well?

If Andrew Bynum could play 30-35 minutes, then he would. He is mature at 23 years old. These are his "prime years". He is healthy, but has conditioning problems. He always has. In his breakout season (07-08), prior to knee injury, he would only contribute in spurts. He'd always burn out down the stretch. That's why I will never forget the Denver game. He dunked on and then blocked Anthony in crunch time. That, essentially, won the game.

We all saw him gassed, against Glen Davis (of all defenders), in the 4th against Boston. I've seen no evidence that Andrew could play more than the minutes he is given without "conditioning" or "injury risk" issues.

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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:37 pm Post subject:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

I am frankly at a loss how you could even consider ranking Drew #15 as you do among Centers in the NBA.... I will say I'm certainly happy to know your not the Laker GM with that in mind...

Among PF/C combos - I guess I am wrong... he's 11

1. D-Howard
2. Pau
3. Joakim Noah
4. Tim Duncan
5. Amare Stoudamire
6. Kevin Love
7. Blake Griffin
8. Al Horford
9. LaMarcus Aldridge
10. Chris Bosh
11. Andrew Bynum
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:41 pm Post subject:

babyskyhook wrote:

Rick12322 wrote:

babyskyhook wrote:

Rick12322 wrote:

, two healthy years under his belt, played out in top shape. He will challenge Dwight for #1, IMO.

Have you seen Dwight play this year ?

Yes. And I maintain what I said based on my evaluation of talent. Talent = raw materials to work with. Bynum's talent >> Howard's, IMO.

Dwight has learned how to make quick drop step spin moves - what he lacks in touch he more than makes up in physical ability.

He really looked like the Dream w/some of his speed moves around the basket.

Andrew may be sound but he is "lumbering". His moves are easily anticipated.
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KobeRe-Loaded
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:42 pm Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

Is it reasonable to presume Drew's MPG will increase not only because of maturity but because of improved health as well?

Bynum is NOT a 35 mpg guy. He will be lucky to be consistent at 32mpg. I watch him and he looks gassed most of the time in the 2nd half.
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:46 pm Post subject:

GSDunk wrote:

zzzzzzzzzzzz

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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:48 pm Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

So where exactly do you rank Camby?

Any ranking where he's above #5 is based on potential - not production - and I grudgingly ranked him at #5 above Nene and Okafor.

Drew has the ability to impact games more than any 4/5 in the league except D12, but one cannot ignore the fact that he's a part-time, part-of-the-season player.

To date, he's never had more than 5-6 games per season where he's dominated - he has about 15/20/season where he makes great contributions, but not greater than the contributions that an Okafor, Dalembert or Haywood would make in a "good" game.

So what we have is a guy who has 5-ish spectacular games, 20-ish eye opening games, and the remaining 57 are either no real impact or he's on the injured list.

Couple that with him not being on the floor in "crunch" time, which is still the defining moment in NBA games, and you have a guy who is either at the top of the mediocre list or the bottom of the good list.

1 - D12
2 - Duncan
3 - Horford
4 - Bogut
5 - Bynum
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davidse
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:53 pm Post subject:

i haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but - where's bogut ? where's perkins in all of those defensive stats ? and using only % per posession and stats per 48 minutes seems to favor one center in particular imo, but i will not name names !~!...

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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:54 pm Post subject:

He's a top 3 center when healthy. _________________ I Recommend VLC Player: http://www.videolan.org/

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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:55 pm Post subject:

KobeRe-Loaded wrote:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

I am frankly at a loss how you could even consider ranking Drew #15 as you do among Centers in the NBA.... I will say I'm certainly happy to know your not the Laker GM with that in mind...

Among PF/C combos - I guess I am wrong... he's 11

10. Chris Bosh
11. Andrew Bynum

After seeing Bosh chucking up mid-range shots for entire season, and after he shot the worst percentage 1-18, after seeing Bynum owning Bosh last year, you still believe Bosh is better than Bynum? Unbelievable!

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