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Where does Drew REALLY rank among Centers? |
#1 |
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5% |
[ 14 ] |
#2 |
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54% |
[ 146 ] |
#3 |
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14% |
[ 39 ] |
#4 (please explain why) |
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5% |
[ 14 ] |
#5 (please explain why) |
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7% |
[ 20 ] |
Below #5 (Bynum haters only w/out explanation) |
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13% |
[ 36 ] |
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Total Votes : 269 |
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JUST-MING Retired Number
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 43950
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Defender wrote: | seeing Bosh chucking up mid-range shots for (an) entire season |
Won the game for Miami on XMas. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004 Posts: 19482 Location: The X-Files
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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babyskyhook wrote: | He's a huge step down from Dwight, and depending on what you are factoring in, you can make arguments for others.
Your stats are nice, Rule, but how about actual PRODUCTION ? PPG, RPG, BPG, etc- Dwight delivers at levels we've NEVER seen from Andrew.
Add in durability (Dwight is an iron man and Drew is, well, Drew) and it's not even close.
In a vacuum, where durability doesn't matter, I'd put him # 2 behind Dwight.
But in the real world, durability matters, and thus guys like Noah, Horford (and if we're only talking about this year and maybe next) Timmy enter into the discussion.
I like Bynum better than all of those guys if he can stay healthy, but I put him at # 3 b/c I think a random NBA GM would probably pick one of those guys (depending on their system and circumstances) over Drew due to injury concerns.
But b/c I think Drew is the better player than any but Dwight when he's healthy, I gave those guys (collectively) the # 2 slot and put Drew at 3. |
Well stated post... first off you'll get no argument from me regarding Dwight as far as where the two players stand CURRENTLY... that said, I'm inclined to believe that Drew will narrow the separation between these two players over time... But when all is said and done I'll clearly agree of course that as of now Dwight is the better all around Center...
As to "durability" well... yes... that has been the primary concern with Drew hasn't it... I think we can all agree that absent his history of injury Drew would be right up there no less than #2 in the NBA at this time... (or maybe we wouldn't agree, but that's my contention anyway)...
Where I strongly disagree with you is on these other players your ticking off like Noah and Horford for example... While I fully understand your reasoning I'm assuming Drew to remain healthy for the most part from here on out and in my view Drew is well better as a Center than these other players...
Think about what Drew would be putting up numbers wise if he were NOT recovering from a surgery THIS year and were the NUMBER OF MINUTES either Noah or Horford are playing...
Both Noah and Horford play ~35 mpg... Drew is being held down to barely 26 mpg... Give Drew the additional 10 mpg and his numbers would be right up there with EITHER of these players as far as PPG, RPG and BPG that you SPEAK OF ABOVE....
... In fact Drew just playing barley 25 mpg is averaging MORE BPG than EITHER of these TWO PLAYERS...
Don't you believe that a "healthy" and "in condition" Drew playing 35 mpg like these other two players could put up similar or BETTER numbers that you talk about regarding PPG, RPB and BPG?
... and that said, the numbers I've posted that J.C. Smith provided originally clearly shows Drew to be a FAR BETTER DEFENDER than EITHER of these TWO PLAYERS....
Here you go babyskyhook ... Let me ask you this question to make my point -----
..... IF DREW WERE ON THE SAME TEAM WITH NOAH OR HORFORD....
..... WHO WOULD BE THE STARTING CENTER?
..... I purpose to you that DREW would be the STARTING CENTER and either Noah or Horford would be the STARTING PF on THAT TEAM....
..... Does that help get my point across to you that Drew is the BETTER CENTER than these other two players you've mentioned....
.... Again, I understand the "health" concerns, but we are considering reasonably good health and conditioning for ALL these players... on that note you might notice that IF YOU TAKE LAST YEAR AND THIS YEAR Drew has played in 101 GAMES... contrasted to Noah who has only played in a total of 91 GAMES... exactly TEN GAMES LESS THAN DREW HAS.... Injuries cannot be predicted and while Drew has had more than his share of "bad luck" no one can presume that any of these three players will be injury free from here on out... both Horford or Noah are not exempt from injury concerned regarding injury concerns especially considering that Noah has missed 30 games this year and played virtually the same number of games last year as Bynum did.... _________________ Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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babyskyhook Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Jul 2009 Posts: 18492 Location: The Garden Island
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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davidse wrote: | i haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but -
where's bogut ?
where's perkins in all of those defensive stats ?
and using only % per posession and stats per 48 minutes seems to favor one center in particular imo, but i will not name names !~!... |
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KobeRe-Loaded Franchise Player
Joined: 09 Dec 2003 Posts: 14944
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Defender wrote: | KobeRe-Loaded wrote: | LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: |
I am frankly at a loss how you could even consider ranking Drew #15 as you do among Centers in the NBA.... I will say I'm certainly happy to know your not the Laker GM with that in mind... |
Among PF/C combos - I guess I am wrong... he's 11
10. Chris Bosh
11. Andrew Bynum |
After seeing Bosh chucking up mid-range shots for entire season, and after he shot the worst percentage 1-18, after seeing Bynum owning Bosh last year, you still believe Bosh is better than Bynum? Unbelievable! |
I would. _________________ #11/08/16 America became GREAT again
#Avatar-gate |
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LA_Lakers_Rule Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004 Posts: 19482 Location: The X-Files
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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^^ Don't let me stop EITHER of you or anyone else for that matter from posting alternative stats.... Feel free to post your own...
Edit: If you guys had my computer you'd understand why I don't take the time to "look up" stats that much...
... my computer is so slow that a post got in between my reply to you guys and there will probably be a post entered after I add this edit... Just entering text is slow... looking up status flat out kills my 15 year old prehistoric computer that spends most of it's time swapping out ram with virtual memory and allows me only a small fraction of actual processing time.... _________________ Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ...
Last edited by LA_Lakers_Rule on Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:12 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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babyskyhook Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Jul 2009 Posts: 18492 Location: The Garden Island
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | babyskyhook wrote: | He's a huge step down from Dwight, and depending on what you are factoring in, you can make arguments for others.
Your stats are nice, Rule, but how about actual PRODUCTION ? PPG, RPG, BPG, etc- Dwight delivers at levels we've NEVER seen from Andrew.
Add in durability (Dwight is an iron man and Drew is, well, Drew) and it's not even close.
In a vacuum, where durability doesn't matter, I'd put him # 2 behind Dwight.
But in the real world, durability matters, and thus guys like Noah, Horford (and if we're only talking about this year and maybe next) Timmy enter into the discussion.
I like Bynum better than all of those guys if he can stay healthy, but I put him at # 3 b/c I think a random NBA GM would probably pick one of those guys (depending on their system and circumstances) over Drew due to injury concerns.
But b/c I think Drew is the better player than any but Dwight when he's healthy, I gave those guys (collectively) the # 2 slot and put Drew at 3. |
Well stated post... first off you'll get no argument from me regarding Dwight as far as where the two players stand CURRENTLY... that said, I'm inclined to believe that Drew will narrow the separation between these two players over time... But when all is said and done I'll clearly agree of course that as of now Dwight is the better all around Center...
As to "durability" well... yes... that has been the primary concern with Drew hasn't it... I think we can all agree that absent his history of injury Drew would be right up there no less than #2 in the NBA at this time... (or maybe we wouldn't agree, but that's my contention anyway)...
Where I strongly disagree with you is on these other players your ticking off like Noah and Horford for example... While I fully understand your reasoning I'm assuming Drew to remain healthy for the most part from here on out and in my view Drew is well better as a Center than these other players...
Think about what Drew would be putting up numbers wise if he were NOT recovering from a surgery THIS year and were the NUMBER OF MINUTES either Noah or Horford are playing...
Both Noah and Horford play ~35 mpg... Drew is being held down to barely 26 mpg... Give Drew the additional 10 mpg and his numbers would be right up there with EITHER of these players as far as PPG, RPG and BPG that you SPEAK OF ABOVE....
... In fact Drew just playing barley 25 mpg is averaging MORE BPG than EITHER of these TWO PLAYERS...
Don't you believe that a "healthy" and "in condition" Drew playing 35 mpg like these other two players could put up similar or BETTER numbers that you talk about regarding PPG, RPB and BPG?
... and that said, the numbers I've posted that J.C. Smith provided originally clearly shows Drew to be a FAR BETTER DEFENDER than EITHER of these TWO PLAYERS....
Here you go babyskyhook ... Let me ask you this question to make my point -----
..... IF DREW WERE ON THE SAME TEAM WITH NOAH OR HORFORD....
..... WHO WOULD BE THE STARTING CENTER?
..... I purpose to you that DREW would be the STARTING CENTER and either Noah or Horford would be the STARTING PF on THAT TEAM....
..... Does that help get my point across to you that Drew is the BETTER CENTER than these other two players you've mentioned....
.... Again, I understand the "health" concerns, but we are considering reasonably good health and conditioning for ALL these players... on that note you might notice that IF YOU TAKE LAST YEAR AND THIS YEAR Drew has played in 101 GAMES... contrasted to Noah who has only played in a total of 91 GAMES... exactly TEN GAMES LESS THAN DREW HAS.... Injuries cannot be predicted and while Drew has had more than his share of "bad luck" no one can presume that any of these three players will be injury free from here on out... both Horford or Noah are not exempt from injury concerned regarding injury concerns especially considering that Noah has missed 30 games this year and played virtually the same number of games last year as Bynum did.... |
Rule-
as I said in the original post, if we assume Drew is healthy and injury isn't an issue, then I'd rank him at # 2.
But I always try to look at these things as if I was the owner of a team. Would I take Drew over Horford or Noah if I was an NBA owner? I like his upside better, but I'd be worried about his injuries. So I put him at # 3 b/c I could see a lot of owners and GMs going for someone like Noah, Horford or even Duncan (if it was a team that was built to win a title right now) over Drew b/c of injury fears.
But we are in agreement that if he is healthy, he is the 2nd best.
And I really and truly hope he stays healthy and continues to improve for years to come. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004 Posts: 19482 Location: The X-Files
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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Well as of now the most I can account for as far as those who voted "Below #5" that have actually OWNED UP to their votes would be KobeRe-Loaded, JUST-MING and GoldenThroat (assuming these are the loggers that did) and in as much as they are conscientious enough to post there "reasons" then I'm not going to label them "Bynum haters" necessarily but this still leaves TWO voters in this category that as far as I can see have not offered an "explanation" thus would have to be tabulated as "Bynum haters" and thus in my view should NOT count in the poll....
In as much as I've also not seen a total of 7 explanations for the 7 votes in categories #4 and #5 (Dr. Laker noted as one of those however) then these might be considered dubious, but if we count all of these votes I think we can simply rank the "Below #5" where they are at (#5) and we come up with the following:
#1 2% [ 1 ]
#2 51% [ 22 ]
#3 17% [ 7 ]
#4 (please explain why) 7% [ 3 ]
#5 (please explain why) 9% [ 4 ]
Below #5 (Bynum haters only w/out explanation) 12% [ 5 ]
OVERALL RESULTS (mean) WITH 42 VOTES IN = # 2.93 rounded ... thus a tad better than a rank of #3...
... Which is what I've been saying Drew is all along as NO WORSE THAN A #3 CENTER IN THE NBA...
... and that's with all of the Bynum detractors who tend to assume the worst.... _________________ Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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LA_Lakers_Rule Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004 Posts: 19482 Location: The X-Files
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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Rick12322 wrote: | Nice work Rule. |
Thanks Rick... I appreciate that... that said, let me say that your post below flat out NAILS IT... THIS IS BY FAR THE MOST INSIGHTFUL POST FOR THIS THREAD SO FAR...
Rick12322 wrote: | JUST-MING wrote: | Rick12322 wrote: | Talent = raw materials to work with. |
Talent is a combination of athleticism and skill level. |
no. skill is the results of how much work you are able to tap out of your talent.
Talent = Height, length, IQ, athleticism, natural ability to shoot, catch, throw, control your body in a variety of ways. You have to have that base before you can get the skills. It's given to you, you're born with it in varying degrees or not at all.
Bynum has shown athleticism, but we also know it hasn't been fully developed because of the several injuries. He also had a history of not being a very active person. But he was born with the athleticism because we've seen it. He's way behind the curve in terms of fully developing his physical abilities because of his pre-basketball, sedentary lifestyle, and post basketball injuries constantly disrupting the process of building muscle memory and peaking physically. |
All that you've posted is FLAT OUT RIGHT ON!!!... But the bolded parts are what stood out for me as REALLY NAILING IT!!!...
... People tend to underestimate how much these setbacks have impacted Drew's development and maturity as a player in really rather significant ways more than they realize....
.... GREAT POST... _________________ Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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matrixskillz Star Player
Joined: 22 Jun 2008 Posts: 7502
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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1. howard
2. duncan
3. noah
4. horford
5. bynum _________________ We only celebrate championships.
"I GOT WHEATIES!" |
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LA_Lakers_Rule Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004 Posts: 19482 Location: The X-Files
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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Ooops... I just noticed another "ADMITTED" Bynum "hater" voting upping the last choice by ONE w/out ANY explanation whatsoever (no explanation thus "admitted" based on the poll criteria).... shame on you... _________________ Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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LA_Lakers_Rule Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004 Posts: 19482 Location: The X-Files
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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matrixskillz wrote: | 1. howard
2. duncan
3. noah
4. horford
5. bynum |
Wait.... if you voted then it appears you may have voted "Below #5" yet ranked Bynum AT #5 in your post.... Since the #5 selection did NOT increment and "Below #5" DID increment by one... (again, that is IF you DID vote)...
... I'm watching you people... ... (maybe we actually don't have another "Bynum hater" like I posted above if THIS is the case afterall... _________________ Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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dood23 Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Jun 2010 Posts: 12084
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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wouldn't trade him for anyone besides D-Wite. |
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kaoss128 Franchise Player
Joined: 09 Apr 2006 Posts: 13058 Location: Morgantown, WV
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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Howard
Lopez
Noah
Nene
Bynum
And I ranked that purely on actual production. No what ifs, no per 48 minutes, no potential, etc. Strictly actual production.
Last edited by kaoss128 on Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Conker Franchise Player
Joined: 09 Jun 2010 Posts: 13056 Location: MDC
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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JUST-MING wrote: | Rick12322 wrote: | Talent = raw materials to work with. |
Talent is a combination of athleticism and skill level. |
What about those guys can that shoot baskets with a high accuracy but lacks of everything else like dunking or speed? _________________ (❍ᴥ❍ʋ) ʕʘᴥʘʔ (⌐ ͡■ ͜ʖ ͡■) (┛◉Д◉)┛( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) ༼;´༎ຶ ༎ຶ༽ |
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_#1_ Star Player
Joined: 18 Aug 2004 Posts: 4717 Location: Next door to 24
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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Bynum takes a knock for not being able to play up to the point that he is on the floor regularly in fourth quarter crunch time. If Howard were here you can be he would be. |
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matrixskillz Star Player
Joined: 22 Jun 2008 Posts: 7502
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | matrixskillz wrote: | 1. howard
2. duncan
3. noah
4. horford
5. bynum |
Wait.... if you voted then it appears you may have voted "Below #5" yet ranked Bynum AT #5 in your post.... Since the #5 selection did NOT increment and "Below #5" DID increment by one... (again, that is IF you DID vote)...
... I'm watching you people... ... (maybe we actually don't have another "Bynum hater" like I posted above if THIS is the case afterall... |
wow. ok, i voted below #5 because i believe nene/lopez both have a case for that spot...and i'm not a hater! _________________ We only celebrate championships.
"I GOT WHEATIES!" |
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Supa Star Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2004 Posts: 2210
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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Bynum's numbers are great for the minutes he plays. In this case, I don't believe in extrapolating the numbers. He has to play limited minutes to stay healthy. If Phil thought he could handle more minutes, you'd see him out there more.
But, the fact remains that this guy produces. There are players out there that can't produce with limited minutes. Bynum isn't one of them. He's probably the 2nd best center talent wise. You have to penalize him because of the limited minutes though. We're hoping he can play more in the future, but maybe he can't. |
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TooMuchMajicBuss Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Sep 2008 Posts: 21064 Location: In a white room, with black curtains near the station
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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It all boils down to consistency, particularly on offense and rebounding. Still, I'd put him at 2nd, barely. |
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rak617 Star Player
Joined: 02 Jun 2008 Posts: 6932
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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My preference
1. Howard
2. Bynum
rest does not matter as this is about Bynum and where he stands.
And most of the NBA owners like to trade for Bynum by giving up their top players. I don't guess that will be case for Noah or any other centers. |
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thurloly Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Nov 2008 Posts: 23930
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Let's be fair and honest here. I think it is lame to put up "potential" stuff such as "if Bynum can play 48min, he will wrap 120231321 rebounds" or "if Bynum is healthy, he will lead any team to 131232131 championships." I will rank Bynum just like any Centers in this league who average 15/16 points, 9/10 rebounds. and 2/3 blocks per games with roughly the same FG %.
I guess Bynum would be ranked 2 or 3 in my books.
I love all of the Lakers players (except Luke). However, I will not blind enough to keep them. If the Lakers can trade them for a right, better player. I will also support it. Therefore, I will trade Bynum for Howard straight up. |
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Bol Star Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 4045
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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I consider Bynum a good center. I think it's pointless to try to rank him because the current crop of centers is so pitiful that a high ranking is meaningless. There's Dwight Howard and then there's everyone else. Unless you count Duncan as a center, in which case there's Howard and Duncan and then everyone else. |
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70sdude Star Player
Joined: 05 Feb 2009 Posts: 4567
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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Kinda silly open-ended topic. Where does Bynum rank ? Rank him among centers in terms of what: performance this year ? career to date ? career average ? scoring ? rebounding ? total performance ? reliability ?
He's one of the league's ten best centers playing today, and if he were healthier and a reliable player (such as to be available for 70+ games per season more than once in six seasons), he'd be in my top four. But he's not. |
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DaMuleRules Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52624 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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Nobody wrote: | GSDunk wrote: | Here's a better poll.....
How many LG posters will actually read LLR's entire post without falling asleep and understanding fully what he's talking about??
....1 poster
....2 posters
....more than 5
....nobody |
The endless... usage... of ... irritates me to no... avail... so I rarely... read... the entire... context of his posts.... because it's... extremely hard...... to do so.... without going.... completely mad..... |
Agree. But in fairness, at least there are some actual words mixed in there as opposed to the dozens of posts by one of our members whose entire posts are frequently " . . ." and nothing else. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90299 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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Bol wrote: | I consider Bynum a good center. I think it's pointless to try to rank him because the current crop of centers is so pitiful that a high ranking is meaningless. There's Dwight Howard and then there's everyone else. Unless you count Duncan as a center, in which case there's Howard and Duncan and then everyone else. |
Why would it be meaningless? Current rank would be against current competition. If you were to extrapolate that to all-time rank, then those arguments would mean something. But if I ask you who the current best defensive shortstop is, whether he plays in an era that matches up with that of Ozzie Smith is immaterial. Someone is the best right now of his peers. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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DzLaker Star Player
Joined: 13 Jul 2004 Posts: 1598 Location: Sacramento, CA
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: |
Both Noah and Horford play ~35 mpg... Drew is being held down to barely 26 mpg... Give Drew the additional 10 mpg and his numbers would be right up there with EITHER of these players as far as PPG, RPG and BPG that you SPEAK OF ABOVE....
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This here is the essence of your error. All of your extrapolations are fun and look good on paper but unfortunately the real world doesn't work that way. But I really do get what you're trying to do with your projections.
Reality is Drew does not play 35 mpg because, due to his size, body type, & injury issues, his conditioning is bad. Right now if you gave him those extra 10 minutes per game, he would most likely have zero to negative impact. It may take years, if ever, to get him up to 35 mpg. He may be like Yao Ming where bad conditioning may be part of his makeup. The Houston coaches said it took 5 years to get Yao's minutes up to the mid 30's. Throw in a severe injury and you may have to start all over.
Assuming perfect health from now on and that his conditioning will be much greater than present is just foolish. |
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