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| Where does Drew REALLY rank among Centers? |
| #1 |
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5% |
[ 14 ] |
| #2 |
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54% |
[ 146 ] |
| #3 |
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14% |
[ 39 ] |
| #4 (please explain why) |
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5% |
[ 14 ] |
| #5 (please explain why) |
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7% |
[ 20 ] |
| Below #5 (Bynum haters only w/out explanation) |
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13% |
[ 36 ] |
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| Total Votes : 269 |
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babyskyhook
Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Jul 2009
Posts: 18492
Location: The Garden Island
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 Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:22 am Post subject: |
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Rule-
I already agreed with you as far as which end of the spectrum has the more extreme opinions back on page 20 but you might have missed it.
Great game by Drew last night. In the past, he has not played well vs Howard, Shaq and Perkins.
Last year, he started dominating Perkins.
This year, and last night especially, Drew has really taken his game to another level- even vs the best competiton such as Howard.
It's great to see.
If Shaq gets back on the court (which I don't think we'll see- at least not as a truly effective player- but if he does) and Boston makes the Finals, the Lakers will need Drew to play vs Shaq the way he played last night. |
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Tanlentueux
Star Player
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
Posts: 7169
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| i rank him 2 behind D12. |
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Bynum4MVP
Star Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2008
Posts: 4816
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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Superman actually looks kind of small standing next to the Juggernaut.
_________________
Before Lamar trade: Lakers-57 wins (2011)
After Lamar Trade: Lakers 41 wins (2012)
Lol, people actually thought trading LO would be a GOOD thing  |
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TooMuchMajicBuss
Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Sep 2008
Posts: 21080
Location: In a white room, with black curtains near the station
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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 If a Juggernaut develops a skyhook does he become a Leviathan? |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
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| Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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Drew breaks through with 50% of voters selecting him as a "#2 Center" with the addition of 2 more votes in the last couple of hours.... 
_________________
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Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ...  |
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Lurtz
Starting Rotation
Joined: 13 Mar 2011
Posts: 524
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| GSDunk wrote: | Here's a better poll.....
How many LG posters will actually read LLR's entire post without falling asleep and understanding fully what he's talking about??
....1 poster
....2 posters
....more than 5
....nobody |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Lurtz wrote: | | GSDunk wrote: | Here's a better poll.....
How many LG posters will actually read LLR's entire post without falling asleep and understanding fully what he's talking about??
....1 poster
....2 posters
....more than 5
....nobody |
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... laugh it up fuzz ball.... I think I've got the LAST LAUGH regarding Bynum... 
... ya think?... 
... might as well diminish the messenger when you CAN NOT diminish the MESSAGE ANY LONGER!!!... 
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Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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JerryMagicKobe
Moderator
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 15100
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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Kupchak:
| Quote: | | I’d say I get 10 to 15 phone calls a year about Andrew. I’ve called teams that have young, developing players myself. I don’t think that’s going to change. Certainly if he had played as well as he’s playing now for the last three years, teams would realize that, well, the Lakers would never trade him. But he’s had stretches where he’s played well and stretches where he hasn’t, and he’s been criticized, and I think general managers look at (those weaker stretches) and think maybe this is an opportunity for me to come in through the back door, let me make a phone call. And I understand that, and don’t think that’s going to change. But having said all that: when Andrew is healthy, and he plays like he is playing right now, you are hard pressed to look at anybody in this league and say, ‘I would trade him for that person.’ |
LINK
This discussion is a MEDICAL debate, because if Drew is healthy he has the ability to dominate like few ever have.
Yes. THAT good. |
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ERod86
Star Player
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 4550
Location: So. CAL
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| GSDunk wrote: | Here's a better poll.....
How many LG posters will actually read LLR's entire post without falling asleep and understanding fully what he's talking about??
....1 poster
....2 posters
....more than 5
....nobody |
I can't, but I do know one thing per48 is almost no good. Per 36 MUCH better, but still not conclusive. |
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Omar Little
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Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90307
Location: Formerly Known As 24
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| ERod86 wrote: | | GSDunk wrote: | Here's a better poll.....
How many LG posters will actually read LLR's entire post without falling asleep and understanding fully what he's talking about??
....1 poster
....2 posters
....more than 5
....nobody |
I can't, but I do know one thing per48 is almost no good. Per 36 MUCH better, but still not conclusive. |
They're basically the same thing. Both are based on per minute.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| JerryMagicKobe wrote: | Kupchak:
| Quote: | | I’d say I get 10 to 15 phone calls a year about Andrew. I’ve called teams that have young, developing players myself. I don’t think that’s going to change. Certainly if he had played as well as he’s playing now for the last three years, teams would realize that, well, the Lakers would never trade him. But he’s had stretches where he’s played well and stretches where he hasn’t, and he’s been criticized, and I think general managers look at (those weaker stretches) and think maybe this is an opportunity for me to come in through the back door, let me make a phone call. And I understand that, and don’t think that’s going to change. But having said all that: when Andrew is healthy, and he plays like he is playing right now, you are hard pressed to look at anybody in this league and say, ‘I would trade him for that person.’ |
LINK
This discussion is a MEDICAL debate, because if Drew is healthy he has the ability to dominate like few ever have.
Yes. THAT good. |
I agree and here's more from another thread: | Texas_Pete wrote: | | Kobe wrote: | "'He's consistently performing this way," Kobe Bryant said after Monday night's game. "We expect this from him. This is how he should play and this is how he's going to play."
Bryant was impressed with how Bynum stood up against Howard, saying it was a "statement" that Bynum "can do this against a Dwight Howard."
"He's motivated," Bryant said. "He doesn't want his man to score. When Pau [Gasol] is in the game and Dwight scores on him, he's upset. So he's kind of got that motor going for him. It's been in him. He's always kind of had that edge to him.
"Everybody finds challenges. For me, it's always scoring. For him, it's rebounding. For Ron [Artest], it's shutting people down. Everybody has that thing that they do that helps us win ballgames and it gets us excited. For him, it's rebounding and blocking shots." |
LINK |
Bynum now has more votes for #2 than the TOTAL of all the remaining votes tabulated and 11 more #2 votes than the total of votes for all the choices below #2....
_________________
Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:03 am Post subject: |
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On whether Mitch would trade Bynum for ANYONE LINK: | Quote: | Q: On if he meant that last statement literally about not trading Bynum for anybody:
| Quote: | | Kupchak: Anybody. If he’s healthy at this level he’s at, you’d have to think about anything. In other words, you may not trade him for anybody. If he helps your team and he’s what you need, and we can advance in the playoffs, then why would you take a chance and do anything? A lot of it is the right fit, the right personality for a team, and I think we have a group of players right now that are unselfish in the big picture, I really do. |
Which why while a lot of you are jumping on the Dwight bandwagon I've intimated that I'd have to think long and hard about trading Drew several times in this thread (last time I said this LINK):
| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | YES it is "something to think about", which btw, I DO and is why while I am not at all against a Bynum for Dwight swap AT THIS TIME at the same time I don't just go "head over heels" and say that I'd jump on that bandwagen in a "heart beat" like so many others on this board. It is something to stop and consider as opposed to saying it's a foregone conclusion health issues up to this point aside of course.... |
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And what is now ironic is that Mitch who makes the big bucks to make these decisions and who has built a CHAMPIONSHIP team in the NBA as opposed to members on this board who have done nothing of the kind seems to agree more with what I HAVE BEEN SAYING than what a lot of arm chair GM's on this board have been calling for that would have in the past traded Drew for the likes of Jermaine O'neal, Jason Kidd, Chris Kaman, Andris Biedrins, Kevin Garnett, Samuel Dalembert, Chris Bosh, Emeka Okafor, Andrew Bogut, Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, Joakim Noah, Demarcus Cousins, Carmelo Anthony and now Dwight Howard to name just a few among MANY others... (and yes while many of these players we call can ALL clearly recall, I DO VIVIDLY remember some willing to actually trade Drew for players like Kaman, Biedrins, Dalembert, Okafor, Noah, Cousins as well as other players at these levels believe it or not).
I frankly feel vindicated considering that Mitch who is clearly one of the premier GM's in the league who was mentored by none other than Jerry West and has his FULL support is ironically taking an even stronger stance than I have regarding trading Drew... and I'm thankful that we have a Laker FO that knows what they are doing and won't just react in a "knee jerk" manner at the first hint of problems with the team or a player.... In many cases it is the trade that was not done that is what makes a GM great....
... and yes, I figure ALL those who have voted Drew #2 (or better) feel vindicated as well... and as we know we have not only heard that considering Drew a #2 Center is "extreme" in the minds of some but we have even heard vitriolic remarks that those who have voted in this manner are flat out ludicrous to think in terms of Drew this way... I suppose these same people would now have to consider Mitch Kupcheck, the GM who has built this Championship team, to be ludicrous as well...
_________________
Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ...
Last edited by LA_Lakers_Rule on Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:21 am; edited 2 times in total |
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sebastian_aguirre
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Joined: 17 Mar 2011
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:12 am Post subject: |
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my problem with Drew is, he needs to produce for an entire season
yes Drew is playing great NOW, but what happened to the first 5 months of the season??? |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:27 am Post subject: |
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^ uhhhh..... What happened in the first five months of the season you ask.....
.... Let's see.... Let me think now.....
..... If I'm not mistaken Drew was recovering from surgery...
.... but then you knew that, RIGHT?  
_________________
Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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sebastian_aguirre
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Joined: 17 Mar 2011
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | ^ uhhhh..... What happened in the first five months of the season you ask.....
.... Let's see.... Let me think now.....
..... If I'm not mistaken Drew was recovering from surgery...
.... but then you knew that, RIGHT?
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recovering from surgery is not an excuse. its andrews fault if he can't play. |
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JerryMagicKobe
Moderator
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 15100
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| sebastian_aguirre wrote: | | LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | ^ uhhhh..... What happened in the first five months of the season you ask.....
.... Let's see.... Let me think now.....
..... If I'm not mistaken Drew was recovering from surgery...
.... but then you knew that, RIGHT?
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recovering from surgery is not an excuse. its andrews fault if he can't play. |
That's true. I also blame Stevie Wonder for not being able to see.
"C'mon you lazy bastard, you HAVE eyes, why don't you use them?" |
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TooMuchMajicBuss
Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Sep 2008
Posts: 21080
Location: In a white room, with black curtains near the station
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| JerryMagicKobe wrote: | | sebastian_aguirre wrote: | | LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | ^ uhhhh..... What happened in the first five months of the season you ask.....
.... Let's see.... Let me think now.....
..... If I'm not mistaken Drew was recovering from surgery...
.... but then you knew that, RIGHT?
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recovering from surgery is not an excuse. its andrews fault if he can't play. |
That's true. I also blame Stevie Wonder for not being able to see.
"C'mon you lazy bastard, you HAVE eyes, why don't you use them?" |
spot on. It takes a real deep thinker to assign blame and condemnation. |
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Omar Little
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Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90307
Location: Formerly Known As 24
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| JerryMagicKobe wrote: | | sebastian_aguirre wrote: | | LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | ^ uhhhh..... What happened in the first five months of the season you ask.....
.... Let's see.... Let me think now.....
..... If I'm not mistaken Drew was recovering from surgery...
.... but then you knew that, RIGHT?
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recovering from surgery is not an excuse. its andrews fault if he can't play. |
That's true. I also blame Stevie Wonder for not being able to see.
"C'mon you lazy bastard, you HAVE eyes, why don't you use them?" |
That, ladies and gentlemen, makes me proud to be a fellow stooge. Mr. Aguire, you are now free to retrieve your entrails...
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
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| Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:09 am Post subject: |
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Great, just ONE "Below #5" voter brings the total vote count to 191 and lowers the #2 vote percentage from 50% to 49% and THIS voter OFFERS ABSOLUTELY NO EXPLANATION for voting "Below #5"...
... Just another of many voters that have the temerity to take the time to vote an "extreme" position based on the poll results and still not offer any explanation to support the "extreme" vote...
... at least "man up" and offer an explanation....
... or how about at least telling us HOW FAR BELOW #5 would YOU rank Bynum?
.... or if YOU have no explanation just list off the other 5+ Centers that in YOUR opinion make a greater impact in games currently than Bynum does?
1. ???? (Dwight )
2. ????
3. ????
4. ????
5. ????
6. ???? Bynum?
7. ???? Bynum?
8. ???? Bynum?
9. ???? Bynum?
10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15.+ ????
.... We can ONLY guess....
... or perhaps YOUR reasons have nothing to do with performance but rather YOUR of the opinion that Bynum will not stay healthy which is a tangential issue and would really have nothing to do with performance at all of course...
... One can only GUESS why another vote was placed for "Below #5".... Pretty weak if you ask me to hide in the shadows and NOT "OWN UP" to YOUR vote (when it is so "extreme")  .... Of course YOUR just one of many however that also offer NO EXPLANATION but still have the temerity to vote in this way (at least 25 others as well).... maybe I'm wrong, but I know if I took the time to vote in a similar fashion I'd at least "man up" and explain my "extreme" vote.... but of course, that's just me....
Btw, NEWS FLASH... to THIS voter and all the others who find themselves voting in the "extreme".... THIS IS A DISCUSSION BOARD AFTER ALL... ... Don't be shy...
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Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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70sdude
Star Player
Joined: 05 Feb 2009
Posts: 4567
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| Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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Zzzzz. This still going ... ? Ya got blinders on dude. We're doing fine with getting the mins from Bynum's sox, for three years now.
OK, I still would rather take Howard, Noah, Perkins, Nene before Sox TODAY.
I'd rather even see Tyson Chandler here for less than half of Bynum's dough happily; he'll sign for a lot less than AB for services for few more seasons and I'll bet he plays more than our goofy kid too. I need a guy who fricken shows up all season long and if he won't, earns less dough than Bynum the Luxury Tax Gobbler. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:04 am Post subject: |
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^ On whether Mitch would trade Bynum for ANYONE LINK: | Quote: | Q: On if he meant that last statement literally about not trading Bynum for anybody:
| Quote: | | Kupchak: Anybody. If he’s healthy at this level he’s at, you’d have to think about anything. In other words, you may not trade him for anybody. If he helps your team and he’s what you need, and we can advance in the playoffs, then why would you take a chance and do anything? A lot of it is the right fit, the right personality for a team, and I think we have a group of players right now that are unselfish in the big picture, I really do. |
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You seem to be at odds with one of the "best" GM's in the NBA not to mention the "best" owner in the NBA as well....
I'll roll with a GM that has built a title contender in a shockingly short time over those who based on their opinion would suggest Mitch doesn't know what he's doing...
I'm fine with going with what the most successful franchise in the NBA has decided is the best route to take over the "arm chair" GM's on LG who disagree with the franchise to be frank...
I'll go with the HOF Head Coach who says Bynum is a "difference maker" and speaks in terms of how important he is to the clubs success...
I'll go with the super-star Kobe's opinion that Bynum is what makes the Lakers a title contender prior to when Gasol was acquired....
Apparently the "best owner in the NBA" seems to be perfectly happy with Bynum so I'll go with what Buss is OK with until opposing opinions can show me that they can accomplish more than the Laker FO has done over the years....
... and I would add that I'm a bit surprised that a fan who has been a Laker fan long enough to have seen how important Centers like Wilt, Jabbar and Shaq have been as far as winning titles and knows that throughout the Laker history the title teams have ALWAYS had All-Star Centers on those teams that won titles would feel the Lakers are better off with Centers like Nene, Chandler, Perkins and even Noah as opposed to a Center that in the opinion of the Laker FO certainly has top-2 talent at the position.... This is certainly not to say that Bynum is equivalent to any of these great Laker Center of the past of course, but Drew is clearly capable of becoming FAR GREATER than many of the Centers you'd be happy with...
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Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:31 am Post subject: |
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vanexelent - You apparently deleted your bump of this thread with the final stat comparisons for Centers on defense.
I read your post and found it interesting, showing Howard #1 and Drew #2, both players separating themselves from the rest of the pack at Center... Pretty much agrees with the poll results...
... how about re-posting? ... or was there something wrong with you numbers?.... if so please fix and re-post if you will...
speaking of poll results... since you bumped the poll there have been 4 more votes with 3 of those for #2 upping the percentage for #2 back to 50% of all voters...
After bump totals:
Where does Drew REALLY rank among Centers?
#1 5% [ 10 ]
#2 49% [ 95 ] up to 50% [98]
#3 14% [ 27 ] up 1 vote [27]
#4 5% [ 10 ]
#5 9% [ 19 ]
>#5 15% [ 30 ]
... anyway.... again.... can you please re-post the FINAL year end defensive rankings once again?
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Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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vanexelent
Retired Number
Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 30081
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | vanexelent - You apparently deleted your bump of this thread with the final stat comparisons for Centers on defense.
I read your post and found it interesting, showing Howard #1 and Drew #2, both players separating themselves from the rest of the pack at Center... Pretty much agrees with the poll results...
... how about re-posting? ... or was there something wrong with you numbers?.... if so please fix and re-post if you will...
speaking of poll results... since you bumped the poll there have been 4 more votes with 3 of those for #2 upping the percentage for #2 back to 50% of all voters...
After bump totals:
Where does Drew REALLY rank among Centers?
#1 5% [ 10 ]
#2 49% [ 95 ] up to 50% [98]
#3 14% [ 27 ] up 1 vote [27]
#4 5% [ 10 ]
#5 9% [ 19 ]
>#5 15% [ 30 ]
... anyway.... again.... can you please re-post the FINAL year end defensive rankings once again? |
I'm calculating the offensive numbers currently and wanted to post them together.... |
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deal
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Posts: 14912
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:40 am Post subject: |
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Howard is #1 agreed. Then their is a bunch of serviceable guys; Drew, Chandler, Marc Gasol, Hibbert.... that are all good but none is or will be a Shaq.
No real big Center talent right now.
Shaq, Kareem or Wilt in their prime would eat through the bunch of them like cookies... |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | Bump...
2010-2011 Year End Totals:
DEFENSE:
Blocked Shot %:
#1. Bynum
#2. Howard
#2. Duncan
#3. Hibbert
#3. Okafor
#4. Mark Gasol
#5. Jefferson
#6. Stoudamire
#7. Noah
#7. Brooke Lopez
#8. Pau Gasol
#8. Gortat
#9. Tyson Chandler
#10. Nene
#11. Horford
#12. Greg Monroe (Detroit)
eFG% Allowed:
#1. Bynum
#2. Howard
#3. Jefferson
#4. Marc Gasol
#5. Gortat
#6. Duncan
#7. Pau Gasol
#7. Okafor
#8. Horford
#9. Hibbert
#10. Brook Lopez
#11. Noah
#12. Chandler
#13. Nene
#14. Stoudamire
#15. Monroe
PER 48 Allowed:
#1. Howard
#2. Bynum
#3. Marc Gasol
#4. Okafor
#5. Gortat
#6. Duncan
#7.Pau Gasol
#8. Noah
#9. Brooke Lopez
#10. Chandler
#11. Horford
#12. Hibbert
#13. Noah
#14. Stoudamire
#15. Monroe
PER 48 Differential:
#1. Howard
#2. Bynum
#3. Pau Gasol
#4. Duncan
#5. Horford
#6. Stoudamire
#7. Jefferson
#8. Gortat
#9. Marc Gasol
#10. Nene
#11. Okafor
#11. Chandler
#12. Lopez
#13. Noah
#14. Hibbert
#15. Monroe
Net +/- On Court/Off Court:
#1. Howard
#2. Pau Gasol
#3. Duncan
#4. Chandler
#5. Nene
#6. Okafor
#7. Horford
#8. Gortat
#9. Marc Gasol
#10. Stoudamire
#11. Hibbert
#12. Monroe
#13. Bynum
#14. Lopez
#14. Jefferson
#15. Noah
Howard = 1.4
Bynum = 3.8
Duncan = 4.2
Pau Gasol = 5.4 |
I found your post in my history....
... Is there anything wrong with what you posted?
.... Any reason why you deleted the bump?
.... I noticed that it is the +/- that kills Drew....
.... Take the +/- out of the equation and Drew ENDS UP TIED AT #1 ON DEFENSE with Dwight...
Using YOUR stats HERE IS THE BREAKDOWN OF THE TOP-5 Centers on DEFENSE (w/out the +/1 which I don't have a lot of confidence in anyway as far as a reliable stat because the other 4 players on the floor impact that stat even more so than the player measured):
#1 Dwight 1.5
#1 Drew 1.5
#3 Duncan 4.5
#4 M. Gasol 5.0
#5 Okafor 6.2
#5 P. Gasol 6.2
... Again, as we can ALL see... based on your numbers, Howard and Andrew TIED at the top and a BIG GAP as far as the rest of the Centers...
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Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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