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| Where does Drew REALLY rank among Centers? |
| #1 |
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5% |
[ 14 ] |
| #2 |
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54% |
[ 146 ] |
| #3 |
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14% |
[ 39 ] |
| #4 (please explain why) |
|
5% |
[ 14 ] |
| #5 (please explain why) |
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7% |
[ 20 ] |
| Below #5 (Bynum haters only w/out explanation) |
|
13% |
[ 36 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 269 |
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Message |
keale18
Star Player
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 2182
Location: Orange County
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 Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| revgen wrote: | | Fallout wrote: | | revgen wrote: | | Quote: | | Since the +/- Points Allowed was used on the defensive side, I thought it only fair that +/- Points Scored be used on the offensive side. |
Considering that Howard is a #1 option on his team and Bynum is #3, his offensive production #'s are naturally going to look more impressive. The question becomes, "If Howard was on the Lakers, would he be the #1 option?". The most likely position Howard takes on the food chain if he was on this team would be #3 right behind Pau and Kobe. I don't think Howard is quite as far ahead of Bynum as some people are trying to make him out to be for this very reason. The only real clear advantage Howard has ahead of Bynum is in the health department. |
Seriously you people think he'll be #3 option? |
Yes.
Look at Pau's ast/to ratio. Look at Dwight's ast/to ratio.
Look at Pau's offensive skillset. Look at Dwight's offensive skillset.
If you really think Dwight is going to be ahead of Pau in the food chain, you're dreaming. |
Yep Pau is clearly the better more skilled offensive player and no question D12 would be #3 in the food chain |
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tgf5
Franchise Player
Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 11581
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | Bump...
2010-2011 Year End Totals:
DEFENSE:
Blocked Shot %:
#1. Bynum
#2. Howard
#2. Duncan
#3. Hibbert
#3. Okafor
#4. Mark Gasol
#5. Jefferson
#6. Stoudamire
#7. Noah
#7. Brooke Lopez
#8. Pau Gasol
#8. Gortat
#9. Tyson Chandler
#10. Nene
#11. Horford
#12. Greg Monroe (Detroit)
eFG% Allowed:
#1. Bynum
#2. Howard
#3. Jefferson
#4. Marc Gasol
#5. Gortat
#6. Duncan
#7. Pau Gasol
#7. Okafor
#8. Horford
#9. Hibbert
#10. Brook Lopez
#11. Noah
#12. Chandler
#13. Nene
#14. Stoudamire
#15. Monroe
PER 48 Allowed:
#1. Howard
#2. Bynum
#3. Marc Gasol
#4. Okafor
#5. Gortat
#6. Duncan
#7.Pau Gasol
#8. Jefferson
#9. Brooke Lopez
#10. Chandler
#11. Horford
#12. Hibbert
#13. Noah
#14. Stoudamire
#15. Monroe
PER 48 Differential:
#1. Howard
#2. Bynum
#3. Pau Gasol
#4. Duncan
#5. Horford
#6. Stoudamire
#7. Jefferson
#8. Gortat
#9. Marc Gasol
#10. Nene
#11. Okafor
#11. Chandler
#12. Lopez
#13. Noah
#14. Hibbert
#15. Monroe
OFFENSE:
eFG:
#1 Chandler
#2. Nen
#3. Howard
#4. Okafor
#5. Bynum
#6. Gortat
#7. Horford
#8. Monroe
#9. Marc Gasol
#10. Noah
#11. Stoudamire
#12. Pau Gasol
#13. Jefferson
#13. Duncan
#14. Brooke Lopez
#15. Hibbert
PER 48:
#1. Howard
#2. Pau Gasol
#2. Stoudamire
#3. Horford
#4. Duncan
#5. Bynum
#6. Nene
#7. Jefferson
#8. Chandler
#9. Noah
#10. B. Lopez
#11. Monroe
#12. Marc Gasol
#13. Okafor
#14. Hibbert
Points PER 48:
#1. Stoudamire
#2. Howard
#3. B. Lopez
#4. Jefferson
#5. Paul Gasol
#6. Nene
#7. Duncan
#8. Hibbert
#9. Gortat
#10. Horford
#11. Bynum
#12. Marc Gasol
#13. Chandler
#14. Noah
#15. Monroe
#16. Okafor
Assists PER 48:
#1. Horford
#2. Pau Gasol
#2. Duncan
#3. Marc Gasol
#4. Noah
#4. Stoudamire
#4. Hibbert
#5. Nene
#6. Jefferson
#7. Bynum
#7. Monroe
#8. B. Lopez
#9. Howard
#10. Gortat
#11. Okafor
#12. Chandler
Offense/Defense:
Net +/- On Court/Off Court:
#1. Howard
#2. Pau Gasol
#3. Duncan
#4. Chandler
#5. Nene
#6. Okafor
#7. Horford
#8. Gortat
#9. Marc Gasol
#10. Stoudamire
#11. Hibbert
#12. Monroe
#13. Bynum
#14. Lopez
#14. Jefferson
#15. Noah |
What are the details of some of the stats?
Eg. what is eFG% Allowed? Is that eFG% allowed against the opposing team or the opposing center? Because if it was the opposing team then doesn't that have a lot to do with teammates too? |
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Fallout
Star Player
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 7626
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| revgen wrote: | | Fallout wrote: | | revgen wrote: | | Quote: | | Since the +/- Points Allowed was used on the defensive side, I thought it only fair that +/- Points Scored be used on the offensive side. |
Considering that Howard is a #1 option on his team and Bynum is #3, his offensive production #'s are naturally going to look more impressive. The question becomes, "If Howard was on the Lakers, would he be the #1 option?". The most likely position Howard takes on the food chain if he was on this team would be #3 right behind Pau and Kobe. I don't think Howard is quite as far ahead of Bynum as some people are trying to make him out to be for this very reason. The only real clear advantage Howard has ahead of Bynum is in the health department. |
Seriously you people think he'll be #3 option? |
Yes.
Look at Pau's ast/to ratio. Look at Dwight's ast/to ratio.
Look at Pau's offensive skillset. Look at Dwight's offensive skillset.
If you really think Dwight is going to be ahead of Pau in the food chain, you're dreaming. |
Clearly people forget the inside-out game. Seriously I keep telling people to watch more games first. Throw the ball to the inside to D12. Defender can either try to guard him, get into foul trouble or D12 passes the ball out.
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Free Throw Attempts (916)
Ranks #11 in the NBA in Points Per Game (22.9)
Or you rather Kobe chuck jumpers all game long?
D12's FG:
Ranks #2 in the NBA in Field-Goal Percentage (0.593)
If you have such an inside presence like D12, you run the offense inside-out. But not only that, D12's history making three year in a row DPOY, he can play D.
Ranks #4 in the NBA in Blocks Per Game (2.38)
Or rebounding.
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Double-doubles (66)
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Defensive Rebounds (789)
Ranks #3 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds (309)
_________________
The journey to 17 begins... |
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J.C. Smith
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 12670
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| Fallout wrote: | | Clearly people forget the inside-out game. Seriously I keep telling people to watch more games first. Throw the ball to the inside to D12. Defender can either try to guard him, get into foul trouble or D12 passes the ball out. |
Bynum and Pau are just as effective of scorers as Howard, imo. If they don't get the ball on offense why would Dwight? |
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jolida5
Starting Rotation
Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 606
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| I'll take Bynum over Howard anyday and proudly take him. |
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Fallout
Star Player
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 7626
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| J.C. Smith wrote: | | Fallout wrote: | | Clearly people forget the inside-out game. Seriously I keep telling people to watch more games first. Throw the ball to the inside to D12. Defender can either try to guard him, get into foul trouble or D12 passes the ball out. |
Bynum and Pau are just as effective of scorers as Howard, imo. If they don't get the ball on offense why would Dwight? |
Thats up to the team. D12 has the highest FTA and one of highest FG, he is more effective than Bynum or Pau down low.
_________________
The journey to 17 begins... |
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deal
Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 14903
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:32 am Post subject: |
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Howard is more franchise player, Drew more of a complementary piece; what do we need in the NEW Brown O & D?; then pick your horse....
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vanexelent
Retired Number
Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 30081
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| tgf5 wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | Bump...
2010-2011 Year End Totals:
DEFENSE:
Blocked Shot %:
#1. Bynum
#2. Howard
#2. Duncan
#3. Hibbert
#3. Okafor
#4. Mark Gasol
#5. Jefferson
#6. Stoudamire
#7. Noah
#7. Brooke Lopez
#8. Pau Gasol
#8. Gortat
#9. Tyson Chandler
#10. Nene
#11. Horford
#12. Greg Monroe (Detroit)
eFG% Allowed:
#1. Bynum
#2. Howard
#3. Jefferson
#4. Marc Gasol
#5. Gortat
#6. Duncan
#7. Pau Gasol
#7. Okafor
#8. Horford
#9. Hibbert
#10. Brook Lopez
#11. Noah
#12. Chandler
#13. Nene
#14. Stoudamire
#15. Monroe
PER 48 Allowed:
#1. Howard
#2. Bynum
#3. Marc Gasol
#4. Okafor
#5. Gortat
#6. Duncan
#7.Pau Gasol
#8. Jefferson
#9. Brooke Lopez
#10. Chandler
#11. Horford
#12. Hibbert
#13. Noah
#14. Stoudamire
#15. Monroe
PER 48 Differential:
#1. Howard
#2. Bynum
#3. Pau Gasol
#4. Duncan
#5. Horford
#6. Stoudamire
#7. Jefferson
#8. Gortat
#9. Marc Gasol
#10. Nene
#11. Okafor
#11. Chandler
#12. Lopez
#13. Noah
#14. Hibbert
#15. Monroe
OFFENSE:
eFG:
#1 Chandler
#2. Nen
#3. Howard
#4. Okafor
#5. Bynum
#6. Gortat
#7. Horford
#8. Monroe
#9. Marc Gasol
#10. Noah
#11. Stoudamire
#12. Pau Gasol
#13. Jefferson
#13. Duncan
#14. Brooke Lopez
#15. Hibbert
PER 48:
#1. Howard
#2. Pau Gasol
#2. Stoudamire
#3. Horford
#4. Duncan
#5. Bynum
#6. Nene
#7. Jefferson
#8. Chandler
#9. Noah
#10. B. Lopez
#11. Monroe
#12. Marc Gasol
#13. Okafor
#14. Hibbert
Points PER 48:
#1. Stoudamire
#2. Howard
#3. B. Lopez
#4. Jefferson
#5. Paul Gasol
#6. Nene
#7. Duncan
#8. Hibbert
#9. Gortat
#10. Horford
#11. Bynum
#12. Marc Gasol
#13. Chandler
#14. Noah
#15. Monroe
#16. Okafor
Assists PER 48:
#1. Horford
#2. Pau Gasol
#2. Duncan
#3. Marc Gasol
#4. Noah
#4. Stoudamire
#4. Hibbert
#5. Nene
#6. Jefferson
#7. Bynum
#7. Monroe
#8. B. Lopez
#9. Howard
#10. Gortat
#11. Okafor
#12. Chandler
Offense/Defense:
Net +/- On Court/Off Court:
#1. Howard
#2. Pau Gasol
#3. Duncan
#4. Chandler
#5. Nene
#6. Okafor
#7. Horford
#8. Gortat
#9. Marc Gasol
#10. Stoudamire
#11. Hibbert
#12. Monroe
#13. Bynum
#14. Lopez
#14. Jefferson
#15. Noah |
What are the details of some of the stats?
Eg. what is eFG% Allowed? Is that eFG% allowed against the opposing team or the opposing center? Because if it was the opposing team then doesn't that have a lot to do with teammates too? |
eFG% Allowed is the players production at that position, vs their opponent, not opposing team's eFG%.
The only team production stat listed (which was used in the original stats provided by J.C. Smith) is the +/- Points (allowed (defense) and scored (offense). |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:55 am Post subject: |
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^ actually the ONLY stat originally provided in regards to +/- (team production stat) was the following (see page one):
| Quote: | Teams +/- Points Allowed When they are on the court: (Lower is better)
Chandler: -6.1
Bynum: -4.9
Duncan: -4.9
Horford: -0.6
Nene: -0.5
Noah: +6.5
Lopez: +2.7
Howard: +4.8
Jefferson: +10.7 |
_________________
Rule = win titles  
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ...  |
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vanexelent
Retired Number
Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 30081
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | All I did was incorporate the offensive counterparts to the defensive stats you posted. If "Teams +/- Points Allowed When they are on the court" is used for defense, Points Scored should be used for offense. You disagree? |
I'm not sure what your using to combine your stats...
... If we have the following ranking on DEFENSE:
Drew #2
Dwight #8
... and the following ranking for "combined" +/- based on your numbers:
Dwight #1
Drew #13
... considering the above ranking you have posted has combined the "offense" counterpart with the "defensive" ranking then just the "offensive" ranking difference between Dwight and Drew would have to be so unbelievably extreme that it would be beyond credulity...
Your saying that BOTH "OFFENSE" AND "DEFENSE" has Drew 13 positions below Dwight... taking into consideration that Drew is six position ahead of Dwight for "defense" then Drew would have to be ranked 19 positions below Dwight on "offense" to have the combined "offense" and "defense" end up with Drew 13 positions below Dwight...
... Maybe I'm confusing myself, but let me try and explain it this way....
Taking the "defensive ranking":
Drew #2
Dwight #8
To end up with a combined (offense/defense) ranking of:
Dwight #1
Drew #13
.... and say Dwight is #1 for "offense" then Drew would have to be ranked #19 to end up with the "combined" ranking you end up with considering Drew was ranked 6 above Dwight for "defense"....
... Besides that you had Dwight #1 "COMBINED" both "offense/defense" yet Dwight as you know he is ranked #8 for "defense" when I posted my thread...
... I don't see how Dwight could end up #1 "combined" if he ranked #8 on "defense", he would have to be ranked 8 positions above #1 to average out to #1 for "combined" offense/defense...
... So using the best we can do ranking Dwight #1 against other Centers for "offense" considering he was ranked #8 for "defense" we would have the following:
Dwight 1+8 = 4.5 combined or to put it another way combined he would rank round 4th to 5th (average between 1 and 8)
... on the other hand for Drew to end up #13 combined and considering he was ranked #2 on defense you'd have the following:
Drew 2+24 = 13 combined --- your #13 ranking "combined" (average between 2 for "defense" and 24 for "offense")
I don't see how there are 24 Centers in the league that are better than Drew on "offense", do you?
... So I am frankly at a loss where you come up with the "combined" ranking for +/- for BOTH "offense" and "defense".... |
I used the NET +/- Points stat ONLY in the final ranking numbers I representing BOTH Defense and Offense:
| Quote: | #1. Howard - 2.4
#2. Bynum - 5.2
#2. Duncan - 5.2
#3. Pau Gasol - 5.3
#4. Horford - 7
#5. Marc Gasol - 7.2
#6. Jefferson - 7.4
#7. Stoudamire - 7.5
#7. Gortat - 7.5
#8. Nene - 7.7
#9. Bogut - 8
#10. Okafor - 8.3
#11. Chandler - 8.8
#12. Brooke Lopez - 9.6
#13. Hibbert - 10
#14. Noah - 10.6
#15. Monroe - 12.2 |
The rankings for JUST DEFENSE (without +/- Points Allowed) are (numbers represent average ranking within stat categories):
#1. Bynum: 1.5
#1. Howard: 1.5
#2. Duncan: 4.5
#3. Marc Gasol: 5
#4. Jefferson: 5.75
#5. Bogut: 6
#6. Pau Gasol: 6.25
#6. Okafor: 6.25
#7. Gortat: 6.5
#8. Horford: 7.75
#8. Brook Lopez: 7.75
#9. Hibbert: 9.5
#10. Stoudamire: 10
#11. Chandler: 10.5
#12. Noah: 11
#13. Nene: 11.5
#14. Monroe: 14.25
The rankings for JUST OFFENSE (without +/- Points Scored) are (numbers represent average ranking within stat categories):
#1. Howard: 3.75
#2. Stoudamire: 4.5
#3. Nene: 4.75
#4, Pau Gasol: 5.25
#4. Horford: 5.25
#5. Duncan: 6.5
#6. Bynum: 7
#7. Jefferson: 7.5
#8. Gortat: 8.5
#8. Chandler: 8.5
#9. Lopez: 8.75
#10. Marc Gasol: 9
#11. Hibbert: 10.25
#11. Monroe: 10.25
#12. Okafor: 11
#13. Bogut: 12.75
Last edited by vanexelent on Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
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vanexelent
Retired Number
Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 30081
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | ^ actually the ONLY stat originally provided in regards to +/- (team production stat) was the following (see page one):
| Quote: | Teams +/- Points Allowed When they are on the court: (Lower is better)
Chandler: -6.1
Bynum: -4.9
Duncan: -4.9
Horford: -0.6
Nene: -0.5
Noah: +6.5
Lopez: +2.7
Howard: +4.8
Jefferson: +10.7 |
|
Yes. And, as I've stated often, when I introduced the OFFENSIVE stats I used the +/- Allowed counter stat of +/- Points Scored. |
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vanexelent
Retired Number
Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 30081
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:12 am Post subject: |
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So, the stats show that Howard and Bynum are equals on the defensive side. But, considering that Howard is alot more mobile and athletic and his Per Game rebounding and blocks are far superior than Bynum's and the fact that he consistantly plays 95-100% of the season, I'd say Howard is the better defensive player.
On the offensive side it's not even close. The stats show Howard is far superior to Bynum. Again, throw in the fact that he plays the entire season and is capable of big time minutes when he does play and it's not even a contest. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:38 am Post subject: |
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^ Almost all of you said above is based on "health"... A "healthy" Bynum makes a HUGE difference...
_________________
Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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vanexelent
Retired Number
Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 30081
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | ^ Almost all of you said above is based on "health"... A "healthy" Bynum makes a HUGE difference... |
The numbers used are when Bynum was healthy and playing. A healthy Bynum is about the 6th best offensive center in the NBA and on par with Howard defensively (which says alot). But, yes, since Bynum has been incapable of playing major minutes, for his entire career, his Per Game defensive numbers (blocks and rebounds) don't look as good as Howards' and thus he hasn't shown up on anyone's DPOY list. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | All I did was incorporate the offensive counterparts to the defensive stats you posted. If "Teams +/- Points Allowed When they are on the court" is used for defense, Points Scored should be used for offense. You disagree? |
I'm not sure what your using to combine your stats...
... If we have the following ranking on DEFENSE:
Drew #2
Dwight #8
... and the following ranking for "combined" +/- based on your numbers:
Dwight #1
Drew #13
... considering the above ranking you have posted has combined the "offense" counterpart with the "defensive" ranking then just the "offensive" ranking difference between Dwight and Drew would have to be so unbelievably extreme that it would be beyond credulity...
Your saying that BOTH "OFFENSE" AND "DEFENSE" has Drew 13 positions below Dwight... taking into consideration that Drew is six position ahead of Dwight for "defense" then Drew would have to be ranked 19 positions below Dwight on "offense" to have the combined "offense" and "defense" end up with Drew 13 positions below Dwight...
... Maybe I'm confusing myself, but let me try and explain it this way....
Taking the "defensive ranking":
Drew #2
Dwight #8
To end up with a combined (offense/defense) ranking of:
Dwight #1
Drew #13
.... and say Dwight is #1 for "offense" then Drew would have to be ranked #19 to end up with the "combined" ranking you end up with considering Drew was ranked 6 above Dwight for "defense"....
... Besides that you had Dwight #1 "COMBINED" both "offense/defense" yet Dwight as you know he is ranked #8 for "defense" when I posted my thread...
... I don't see how Dwight could end up #1 "combined" if he ranked #8 on "defense", he would have to be ranked 8 positions above #1 to average out to #1 for "combined" offense/defense...
... So using the best we can do ranking Dwight #1 against other Centers for "offense" considering he was ranked #8 for "defense" we would have the following:
Dwight 1+8 = 4.5 combined or to put it another way combined he would rank round 4th to 5th (average between 1 and 8)
... on the other hand for Drew to end up #13 combined and considering he was ranked #2 on defense you'd have the following:
Drew 2+24 = 13 combined --- your #13 ranking "combined" (average between 2 for "defense" and 24 for "offense")
I don't see how there are 24 Centers in the league that are better than Drew on "offense", do you?
... So I am frankly at a loss where you come up with the "combined" ranking for +/- for BOTH "offense" and "defense".... |
I used the NET +/- Points stat ONLY in the final ranking numbers I representing BOTH Defense and Offense:
| Quote: | #1. Howard - 2.4
#2. Bynum - 5.2
#2. Duncan - 5.2
#3. Pau Gasol - 5.3
#4. Horford - 7
#5. Marc Gasol - 7.2
#6. Jefferson - 7.4
#7. Stoudamire - 7.5
#7. Gortat - 7.5
#8. Nene - 7.7
#9. Bogut - 8
#10. Okafor - 8.3
#11. Chandler - 8.8
#12. Brooke Lopez - 9.6
#13. Hibbert - 10
#14. Noah - 10.6
#15. Monroe - 12.2 |
The rankings for JUST DEFENSE (without +/- Points Allowed) are (numbers represent average ranking within stat categories):
#1. Bynum: 1.5
#1. Howard: 1.5
#2. Duncan: 4.5
#3. Marc Gasol: 5
#4. Jefferson: 5.75
#5. Bogut: 6
#6. Pau Gasol: 6.25
#6. Okafor: 6.25
#7. Gortat: 6.5
#8. Horford: 7.75
#8. Brook Lopez: 7.75
#9. Hibbert: 9.5
#10. Stoudamire: 10
#11. Chandler: 10.5
#12. Noah: 11
#13. Nene: 11.5
#14. Monroe: 14.25
The rankings for JUST OFFENSE (without +/- Points Scored) are (numbers represent average ranking within stat categories):
#1. Howard: 3.75
#2. Stoudamire: 4.5
#3. Nene: 4.75
#4. Horford: 5.25
#5. Duncan: 6.5
#6. Bynum: 7
#7. Jefferson: 7.5
#8. Gortat: 8.5
#8. Chandler: 8.5
#9. Lopez: 8.75
#10. Hibbert: 10.25
#10. Monroe: 10.25
#11. Okafor: 11
#12. Bogut: 12.75 |
That's a lot different than you original post on "net +/-"
| vanexelent wrote: | Net +/- On Court/Off Court:
#1. Howard
#2. Pau Gasol
#3. Duncan
#4. Chandler
#5. Nene
#6. Okafor
#7. Horford
#8. Gortat
#9. Marc Gasol
#10. Stoudamire
#11. Hibbert
#12. Monroe
#13. Bynum
#14. Lopez
#14. Jefferson
#15. Noah |
That's what I didn't understand and was referring to in my post above... beyond part of the issue regarding how "offense" depends upon larger numbers and "defense" smaller numbers and trying to amalgamate this into a "net +/-" there is the issue of how Drew is so close in "offense" but on the other hand there is such a huge disparity for the "Net +/-" (presumably combined "offense" & "defense") which would require Drew to have been ranked so low on the list for "offense" to have this "average" come out above was simply beyond credulity....
... So now your NOT taking "+/- points scored" and NOT taking "+/- points allowed".... OK... not sure what this is but I'll go with it... ... that in as much as the ranking now looks much more reasonable than before... 
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| The stats do show that as far as being a "two-way" player, Bynum is not as consistent on both ends. While he's tops on defense, his offensive ranking drop him (on average) six positions. That's quite a drastic slide. Guys like Duncan, the Gasol's, Howard (obviously), and Jefferson are pretty much the same player on both ends of the court. |
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rak617
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | The stats do show that as far as being a "two-way" player, Bynum is not as consistent on both ends. While he's tops on defense, his offensive ranking drop him (on average) six positions. That's quite a drastic slide. Guys like Duncan, the Gasol's, Howard (obviously), and Jefferson are pretty much the same player on both ends of the court. |
Duncan? Gasol? Howard?........they are all first or second options on their teams. Bynum had many games where he had 5 or less shots. It does not help to pad stats....or develop any rhythm or confidence.
And also about Howard's offensive game......most of his points are from dunks. Some of the credit should go to their PGs......who can pass the ball for easy dunks. But we have Fisher...who can't create any shots for our bigs.
Last edited by rak617 on Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:24 am; edited 3 times in total |
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zurich78
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| IMO, he is a CLEAR CUT second. |
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Mamba3301
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| Bynum is a career 10/7 guy...just saw his career averages, was shocked to be honest. LG can be very misleading...they would have you believe Bynum is the second coming of Shaq. Not with those numbers kid. |
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| rak617 wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | The stats do show that as far as being a "two-way" player, Bynum is not as consistent on both ends. While he's tops on defense, his offensive ranking drop him (on average) six positions. That's quite a drastic slide. Guys like Duncan, the Gasol's, Howard (obviously), and Jefferson are pretty much the same player on both ends of the court. |
Duncan? Gasol? Howard?........they are all first or second options on their teams. Bynum had many games where he had 5 or less shots. It does not help to pad stats....or develop any rhythm or confidence.
And also about Howard's offensive game......most of his points are from dunks. Some of the credit should go to their PGs......who can pass the ball for easy dunks. But we have Fisher...who can't create any shots for our bigs. |
The stats used take that into account.
As for the contention that Howard scores "most of his points from dunks"... both he and Bynum shoot 16% of their shots as dunks. So give credit to Derek Fisher. |
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rak617
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | rak617 wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | The stats do show that as far as being a "two-way" player, Bynum is not as consistent on both ends. While he's tops on defense, his offensive ranking drop him (on average) six positions. That's quite a drastic slide. Guys like Duncan, the Gasol's, Howard (obviously), and Jefferson are pretty much the same player on both ends of the court. |
Duncan? Gasol? Howard?........they are all first or second options on their teams. Bynum had many games where he had 5 or less shots. It does not help to pad stats....or develop any rhythm or confidence.
And also about Howard's offensive game......most of his points are from dunks. Some of the credit should go to their PGs......who can pass the ball for easy dunks. But we have Fisher...who can't create any shots for our bigs. |
The stats used take that into account.
As for the contention that Howard scores "most of his points from dunks"... both he and Bynum shoot 16% of their shots as dunks. So give credit to Derek Fisher. |
What do the stats take into account?
Also...just curious....where did you get that 16% dunk stat? |
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| rak617 wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | rak617 wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | The stats do show that as far as being a "two-way" player, Bynum is not as consistent on both ends. While he's tops on defense, his offensive ranking drop him (on average) six positions. That's quite a drastic slide. Guys like Duncan, the Gasol's, Howard (obviously), and Jefferson are pretty much the same player on both ends of the court. |
Duncan? Gasol? Howard?........they are all first or second options on their teams. Bynum had many games where he had 5 or less shots. It does not help to pad stats....or develop any rhythm or confidence.
And also about Howard's offensive game......most of his points are from dunks. Some of the credit should go to their PGs......who can pass the ball for easy dunks. But we have Fisher...who can't create any shots for our bigs. |
The stats used take that into account.
As for the contention that Howard scores "most of his points from dunks"... both he and Bynum shoot 16% of their shots as dunks. So give credit to Derek Fisher. |
What do the stats take into account?
Also...just curious....where did you get that 16% dunk stat? |
Bynum
Howard |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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Location: The X-Files
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | rak617 wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | The stats do show that as far as being a "two-way" player, Bynum is not as consistent on both ends. While he's tops on defense, his offensive ranking drop him (on average) six positions. That's quite a drastic slide. Guys like Duncan, the Gasol's, Howard (obviously), and Jefferson are pretty much the same player on both ends of the court. |
Duncan? Gasol? Howard?........they are all first or second options on their teams. Bynum had many games where he had 5 or less shots. It does not help to pad stats....or develop any rhythm or confidence.
And also about Howard's offensive game......most of his points are from dunks. Some of the credit should go to their PGs......who can pass the ball for easy dunks. But we have Fisher...who can't create any shots for our bigs. |
The stats used take that into account.
As for the contention that Howard scores "most of his points from dunks"... both he and Bynum shoot 16% of their shots as dunks. So give credit to Derek Fisher. |
Your ignoring the fact that as a 1st Option Howard takes about 70% MORE shots than Bynum.... thus a LOT more DUNKS!!
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Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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zurich78
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Posts: 2661
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | rak617 wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | The stats do show that as far as being a "two-way" player, Bynum is not as consistent on both ends. While he's tops on defense, his offensive ranking drop him (on average) six positions. That's quite a drastic slide. Guys like Duncan, the Gasol's, Howard (obviously), and Jefferson are pretty much the same player on both ends of the court. |
Duncan? Gasol? Howard?........they are all first or second options on their teams. Bynum had many games where he had 5 or less shots. It does not help to pad stats....or develop any rhythm or confidence.
And also about Howard's offensive game......most of his points are from dunks. Some of the credit should go to their PGs......who can pass the ball for easy dunks. But we have Fisher...who can't create any shots for our bigs. |
The stats used take that into account.
As for the contention that Howard scores "most of his points from dunks"... both he and Bynum shoot 16% of their shots as dunks. So give credit to Derek Fisher. |
Your ignoring the fact that as a 1st Option Howard takes about 70% MORE shots than Bynum.... thus a LOT more DUNKS!! |
Yes but that wouldn't change the percentage of dunks. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Mamba3301 wrote: | | Bynum is a career 10/7 guy...just saw his career averages, was shocked to be honest. LG can be very misleading...they would have you believe Bynum is the second coming of Shaq. Not with those numbers kid. |
Aren't you the "fair one"... 
Your going to take his CAREER stats knowing that he started out at 17 years of age with essentially only two years of high school experience prior to the NBA and has had a number of seasons where he has sustained injuries and had to take time to recover from this....
... JUST WOW... 
... discarding his first two years AS A TEENAGER...
... We have the LAST FOUR YEAR STATS AS THE FOLLOWING: 13.5 PPG AND 9.0 RPG ... This is a lot more accurate measurement of Drew I'd say....
How about try avoiding a biased set of lenses?
I'd say your suggestion that Drew is a "career 10 7 guy" is VERY MISLEADING to say the least... and is a far cry from the 13.5 9.0 numbers for the last FOUR years which is PRETTY DARN GOOD CONSIDERING DREW HAS BEEN AT BEST A THIRD OPTION IN THE OFFENSE AND HAS BEEN PLAYING THROUGH INJURIES OR RECOVERING FROM INJURIES A MAJORITY OF THIS TIME...
OBVIOUSLY DREW IS NOT A "10 7 GUY" AND WILL LIKELY BE CLOSER TO A 15 10 GUY GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE A CLOSE TO INJURY FREE SEASON
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