| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Where does Drew REALLY rank among Centers? |
| #1 |
|
5% |
[ 14 ] |
| #2 |
|
54% |
[ 146 ] |
| #3 |
|
14% |
[ 39 ] |
| #4 (please explain why) |
|
5% |
[ 14 ] |
| #5 (please explain why) |
|
7% |
[ 20 ] |
| Below #5 (Bynum haters only w/out explanation) |
|
13% |
[ 36 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 269 |
|
| Author |
Message |
LA_Lakers_Rule
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
|
 Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| zurich78 wrote: | | LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | rak617 wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | The stats do show that as far as being a "two-way" player, Bynum is not as consistent on both ends. While he's tops on defense, his offensive ranking drop him (on average) six positions. That's quite a drastic slide. Guys like Duncan, the Gasol's, Howard (obviously), and Jefferson are pretty much the same player on both ends of the court. |
Duncan? Gasol? Howard?........they are all first or second options on their teams. Bynum had many games where he had 5 or less shots. It does not help to pad stats....or develop any rhythm or confidence.
And also about Howard's offensive game......most of his points are from dunks. Some of the credit should go to their PGs......who can pass the ball for easy dunks. But we have Fisher...who can't create any shots for our bigs. |
The stats used take that into account.
As for the contention that Howard scores "most of his points from dunks"... both he and Bynum shoot 16% of their shots as dunks. So give credit to Derek Fisher. |
Your ignoring the fact that as a 1st Option Howard takes about 70% MORE shots than Bynum.... thus a LOT more DUNKS!! |
Yes but that wouldn't change the percentage of dunks. |
Of course not... but the NUMBER of DUNKS is MUCH GREATER... and as such requires a lot more help from his teammates .... WOULDN'T YOU AGREE? 
_________________
Rule = win titles  
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ...  |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
RedMage58
Starting Rotation
Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 172
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
How many good knees does Bynum have?
0 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vanexelent
Retired Number
Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 30081
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | zurich78 wrote: | | LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | rak617 wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | The stats do show that as far as being a "two-way" player, Bynum is not as consistent on both ends. While he's tops on defense, his offensive ranking drop him (on average) six positions. That's quite a drastic slide. Guys like Duncan, the Gasol's, Howard (obviously), and Jefferson are pretty much the same player on both ends of the court. |
Duncan? Gasol? Howard?........they are all first or second options on their teams. Bynum had many games where he had 5 or less shots. It does not help to pad stats....or develop any rhythm or confidence.
And also about Howard's offensive game......most of his points are from dunks. Some of the credit should go to their PGs......who can pass the ball for easy dunks. But we have Fisher...who can't create any shots for our bigs. |
The stats used take that into account.
As for the contention that Howard scores "most of his points from dunks"... both he and Bynum shoot 16% of their shots as dunks. So give credit to Derek Fisher. |
Your ignoring the fact that as a 1st Option Howard takes about 70% MORE shots than Bynum.... thus a LOT more DUNKS!! |
Yes but that wouldn't change the percentage of dunks. |
Of course not... but the NUMBER of DUNKS is MUCH GREATER... and as such requires a lot more help from his teammates .... WOULDN'T YOU AGREE? |
No. Howard gets 4 offensive rebounds per game. That leads to his own dunks. Howard also has a face-up game, where he can blow by his man and dunk on him. Howard also has a post game, where he can back a player down and dunk on him.
Regarless of all this, why are dunks considered negative? Shaq dominated opponents with his dunks and won a few rings by it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58336
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
Players who are capable of playing Center that I would rate higher than Bynum.
Dwight Howard - Orlando
Pau Gasol - LA
Amare Stoudemire - New York
Andrea Bargnani - Toronto
That's it.
I believe when 100% healthy, Bynum is the best or 2nd best Center in the NBA but overall his play over 82 games is about the 5th best Center game out there, and the 3rd best starting C game. He may be the best true Center left in the game, consider Howard is more like a PF, Gasol is more of a hybrid C-PF, Amare is more of a PF-SF and the same for Bargnani. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LA_Lakers_Rule
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| wolfpaclaker wrote: | Players who are capable of playing Center that I would rate higher than Bynum.
Dwight Howard - Orlando
Pau Gasol - LA
Amare Stoudemire - New York
Andrea Bargnani - Toronto
That's it.
I believe when 100% healthy, Bynum is the best or 2nd best Center in the NBA but overall his play over 82 games is about the 5th best Center game out there, and the 3rd best starting C game. He may be the best true Center left in the game, consider Howard is more like a PF, Gasol is more of a hybrid C-PF, Amare is more of a PF-SF and the same for Bargnani. |
I would agree IF we are ONLY looking at OFFENSE...
... But, considering DEFENSE... it comes down to ONLY DWIGHT AND ANDREW, period, imho.... Point being, Amare is a great offensive player (clearly the best of these five Center), but when you give up as many points as he does what's the big advantage really?....
Considering these four players games in their ENTIRETY:
1. Dwight Howard - Orlando
2. Andrew Bynum - LA
3. Pau Gasol - LA
4. Amare Stoudemire - New York
5. Andrea Bargnani - Toronto
I say this because Dwight and Andrew are DPOY type player candidates... the rest of these players are NOT even close and can't even be discussed in the same sentence regarding defense with the likes of DH and AB...
... Drew's DEFENSIVE stats are not only comparable but are actually OVERALL BETTER than Howard's DEFENSIVE stats as proven by this thread... (I understand some will say "stats" are not the end all, that's OK... but that said, there is no denying that based on stats Drew is as good or better)....
... I would add this.... ISN'T IT AMAZING THAT THE LAKERS HAVE THE #2 AND #3 CENTERS IN THE NBA, by my estimate that is....
_________________
Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vanexelent
Retired Number
Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 30081
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Drew's DEFENSIVE stats are not only comparable but are actually OVERALL BETTER than Howard's DEFENSIVE stats as proven by this thread... |
There are not BETTER than Howard's. They are equal. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vanexelent
Retired Number
Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 30081
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
Blocked Shot %
Bynum: 4.2 (#1 rank)
Howard: 3.9 (#2 rank)
eFG Allowed:
Bynum: .447 (#1)
Howard: .450 (#2)
PER 48 Allowed:
Bynum 11.9 (#2)
Howard: 11.8 (#1)
PER 48 Differential:
Bynum: 10.7 (#2)
Howard: 16.3 (#1)
The two flip-flop between #1 and #2 equally. Obviously the only player that would be eligible to win DPOY would be the one who plays the majority of his team's Center position minutes and plays 80 games instead of 50+. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fallout
Star Player
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 7626
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
| vanexelent wrote: | | Quote: | | Drew's DEFENSIVE stats are not only comparable but are actually OVERALL BETTER than Howard's DEFENSIVE stats as proven by this thread... |
There are not BETTER than Howard's. They are equal. |
Although not in the DPOY voting...
http://www.nba.com/2011/news/04/18/dwight-howard-defensive-player-release/index.html
Votes:
Dwight Howard Magic 585
Kevin Garnett Celtics 77
Andrew Bynum Lakers 3
Huge disparity between first and second. Actually D12 got more votes than everyone combined.
_________________
The journey to 17 begins... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
postandpivot
Retired Number
Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Posts: 36822
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Fallout wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | Quote: | | Drew's DEFENSIVE stats are not only comparable but are actually OVERALL BETTER than Howard's DEFENSIVE stats as proven by this thread... |
There are not BETTER than Howard's. They are equal. |
Although not in the DPOY voting...
http://www.nba.com/2011/news/04/18/dwight-howard-defensive-player-release/index.html
Votes:
Dwight Howard Magic 585
Kevin Garnett Celtics 77
Andrew Bynum Lakers 3
Huge disparity between first and second. Actually D12 got more votes than everyone combined. |
what was the point of you showing us VOTES? that has nothing to do with reality. when the votes are that far apart. when ROn wasnt even up there. you know there's a problem. so leave the "votes" out of this discussion. we're talking stats. not popularity contest.
_________________
LAL4K3RS wrote: He(Kobe) is the white haired kung fu master that you realize is older than dirt but can still kick your arse when in a sitting position drinking a nice herbal tea. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LA_Lakers_Rule
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
| vanexelent wrote: | Blocked Shot %
Bynum: 4.2 (#1 rank)
Howard: 3.9 (#2 rank)
eFG Allowed:
Bynum: .447 (#1)
Howard: .450 (#2)
PER 48 Allowed:
Bynum 11.9 (#2)
Howard: 11.8 (#1)
PER 48 Differential:
Bynum: 10.7 (#2)
Howard: 16.3 (#1)
The two flip-flop between #1 and #2 equally. Obviously the only player that would be eligible to win DPOY would be the one who plays the majority of his team's Center position minutes and plays 80 games instead of 50+. |
Yes, but if we include the defensive +/- ranking, which you wanted to include in you total ranking including offense but just stick to defense which is what I'm talking about then we should take into consideration the following stat as well...
Teams +/- Points Allowed When they are on the court: (Lower is better)
# 1 Bynum: -4.9
# 2 Howard: +4.8
So now Drew would be ahead in THREE of the FIVE comparisons thus a MAJORITY....
... AND.... If we look at each player based on the stats I had posted compared to where each player stood against their PEERS AT CENTER (ranking position among Centers) THEN DREW COMES OUT AHEAD ONCE AGAIN.... SEE TOTAL RANKING BELOW using the position averages each player ranks in each category....
Blocked Shot Percentage:
# 1 Bynum: 4.7%
# 2 Duncan: 4.1%
# 3 Howard: 3.8%
# 4 Jefferson: 3.4%
# 5 Lopez: 2.7%
# 6 Chandler: 2.6%
# 7 Noah: 2.6%
# 8 Horford: 2%
# 9 Nene: 1.6%
eFG Allowed:
# 1 Bynum: 45.1%
# 2 Howard: 48.2%
# 3 Horford: 48.2%
# 4 Duncan: 48.7%
# 5 Jefferson: 48.9%
# 6 Lopez: 49.3%
# 7 Nene: 49.3%
# 8 Chandler: 50.4%
# 9 Noah: 57.5%
PER48 Allowed:
# 1 Bynum: 10.4
# 2 Howard: 13.2
# 3 Duncan: 15.8
# 4 Chandler: 17.0
# 5 Horford: 17.1
# 6 Lopez: 17.1
# 7 Jefferson: 17.2
# 8 Nene: 17.6
# 9 Noah: 20.2
PER48 Differential:
# 1 Howard: +13
# 2 Bynum: +10.8
# 3 Horford: +7.2
# 4 Duncan: +7.0
# 5 Nene: +5.2
# 6 Chandler: +2.1
# 7 Jefferson: +2
# 8 Lopez: +1.4
# 9 Noah: +0.7
Teams +/- Points Allowed When they are on the court: (Lower is better)
# 1 Chandler: -6.1
# 2 Bynum: -4.9
# 3 Duncan: -4.9
# 4 Horford: -0.6
# 5 Nene: -0.5
# 6 Noah: +6.5
# 7 Lopez: +2.7
# 8 Howard: +4.8
# 9 Jefferson: +10.7
Let's TOTAL the RANKING for EACH CENTER (take the total ranked positions and divide by the number of categories listed):
Ranking (smaller number best):
1. Bynum - 7 (7/5) = 1.4
2. Howard - 16 (16/5) = 3.2
2. Duncan - 16 (16/5) = 3.2
3. Horford - 23 (23/5) = 4.6
4. Chandler - 25 (25/5) = 5.0
5. Lopez - 32 (32/5) = 6.4
5. Jefferson - 32 (32/5) = 6.4
6. Nene - 34 (34/5) = 6.8
7. Noah - 40 (40/5) = 8.0
I realize that it can depend upon what you want to measure on the DEFENSIVE END... and I realize these ranking ended up different at years end (I'm to lazy to do all of this over again for year end numbers)... but I would not be surprised to find Drew STILL AHEAD at the END OF THE YEAR using this method of RANKING ALL CENTERS.... AGAIN THIS IS ONLY DEFENSE.... WHICH IS WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT... AGAIN I TOTALLY AGREE OVERALL DWIGHT IS THE BETTER PLAYER PRESENTLY!!!!!
... BUT... By including the ranking of each player compared to their peers at their position one can argue that Drew is equal to or BETTER than Dwight STATISTICALLY....
.... IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT "STATISTICALLY" which does not necessarily completely representative of course, but is a valid barometer nevertheless....
... and lastly.... THE FACT DWIGHT IS A TWO YEAR RUNNING DPOY PLAYER CURRENTLY THIS SAYS A WHOLE LOT ABOUT DREW'S TALENT AND PRESENCE ON DEFENSE.... WOULD YOU AGREE?
_________________
Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LA_Lakers_Rule
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Fallout wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | Quote: | | Drew's DEFENSIVE stats are not only comparable but are actually OVERALL BETTER than Howard's DEFENSIVE stats as proven by this thread... |
There are not BETTER than Howard's. They are equal. |
Although not in the DPOY voting...
http://www.nba.com/2011/news/04/18/dwight-howard-defensive-player-release/index.html
Votes:
Dwight Howard Magic 585
Kevin Garnett Celtics 77
Andrew Bynum Lakers 3
Huge disparity between first and second. Actually D12 got more votes than everyone combined. |
Hmmmm.... just kind of an obvious point....
.... do you think that the fact Drew did not start PLAYING at the beginning of the season but instead came into the season a few months late HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS?
Oh and this is not to mention besides the fact Drew did not start the year that Dwight was the "incumbent" DPOY player as well.... and as a result voters had in many cases already made up their minds...
_________________
Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fallout
Star Player
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 7626
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
| postandpivot wrote: | | Fallout wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | Quote: | | Drew's DEFENSIVE stats are not only comparable but are actually OVERALL BETTER than Howard's DEFENSIVE stats as proven by this thread... |
There are not BETTER than Howard's. They are equal. |
Although not in the DPOY voting...
http://www.nba.com/2011/news/04/18/dwight-howard-defensive-player-release/index.html
Votes:
Dwight Howard Magic 585
Kevin Garnett Celtics 77
Andrew Bynum Lakers 3
Huge disparity between first and second. Actually D12 got more votes than everyone combined. |
what was the point of you showing us VOTES? that has nothing to do with reality. when the votes are that far apart. when ROn wasnt even up there. you know there's a problem. so leave the "votes" out of this discussion. we're talking stats. not popularity contest. |
The reality is that people outside Lakers land recognize D12 for his defensive prowess. Its only here that people have rose tinted glasses.
_________________
The journey to 17 begins... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fallout
Star Player
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 7626
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: |
Hmmmm.... just kind of an obvious point....
.... do you think that the fact Drew did not start PLAYING at the beginning of the season but instead came into the season a few months late HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS?
Oh and this is not to mention besides the fact Drew did not start the year that Dwight was the "incumbent" DPOY player as well.... and as a result voters had in many cases already made up their minds... |
Why was he late? oh yeah injuries. You can't play defense when you're injured. You can't contribute to the team when you're not on the floor. Another reason why DPOY was well deserved for D12. Next year might be closer, if Drew can play all the games.
_________________
The journey to 17 begins... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LA_Lakers_Rule
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Fallout wrote: | | LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: |
Hmmmm.... just kind of an obvious point....
.... do you think that the fact Drew did not start PLAYING at the beginning of the season but instead came into the season a few months late HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS?
Oh and this is not to mention besides the fact Drew did not start the year that Dwight was the "incumbent" DPOY player as well.... and as a result voters had in many cases already made up their minds... |
Why was he late? oh yeah injuries. You can't play defense when you're injured. You can't contribute to the team when you're not on the floor. Another reason why DPOY was well deserved for D12. Next year might be closer, if Drew can play all the games. |
Injuries have nothing at all to do with "TALENT" which is what we are talking about...
... I didn't hold it against Odom or Kobe when they couldn't play due to injury...
... I know your going to mention frequency of injury as a response... and we all know Drew has had more than his share of bad luck in this area...
... I tend to NOT assume injury for ANY player... your welcome to take a different approach of course...
... the bottom line is that a HEALTHY Drew is minimally on par with Dwight defensively and Drew is TWO YEARS younger btw... END OF STORY....
... Point being... If Drew can stay healthy the NEXT TWO years he could conceivably have the SAME number of DPOY awards at the same age that Dwight does now at that same age.... assuming the voting is fair of course....
_________________
Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fallout
Star Player
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 7626
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | Fallout wrote: | | LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: |
Hmmmm.... just kind of an obvious point....
.... do you think that the fact Drew did not start PLAYING at the beginning of the season but instead came into the season a few months late HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS?
Oh and this is not to mention besides the fact Drew did not start the year that Dwight was the "incumbent" DPOY player as well.... and as a result voters had in many cases already made up their minds... |
Why was he late? oh yeah injuries. You can't play defense when you're injured. You can't contribute to the team when you're not on the floor. Another reason why DPOY was well deserved for D12. Next year might be closer, if Drew can play all the games. |
Injuries have nothing at all to do with "TALENT" which is what we are talking about...
... I didn't hold it against Odom or Kobe when they couldn't play due to injury...
... I know your going to mention frequency of injury as a response... and we all know Drew has had more than his share of bad luck in this area...
... I tend to NOT assume injury for ANY player... your welcome to take a different approach of course...
... the bottom line is that a HEALTHY Drew is minimally on par with Dwight defensively and Drew is TWO YEARS younger btw... END OF STORY....
... Point being... If Drew can stay healthy the NEXT TWO years he could conceivably have the SAME number of DPOY awards at the same age that Dwight does now at that same age.... assuming the voting is fair of course.... |
What does age has to do with anything? D12 was DPOY two years ago also FYI. Or you think the voting is rigged.
_________________
The journey to 17 begins... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jeffs
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Posts: 25274
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I wonder what would happen if this thread was linked to a non-Laker message board.
_________________
Jeffs
I feel like I just watched someone TRULY give 100%. Not the BS I'm-gonna-give-a-110%-just-like-everyone-else-says platitudes, but someone that went until he just....broke. - GT |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vanexelent
Retired Number
Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 30081
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | Blocked Shot %
Bynum: 4.2 (#1 rank)
Howard: 3.9 (#2 rank)
eFG Allowed:
Bynum: .447 (#1)
Howard: .450 (#2)
PER 48 Allowed:
Bynum 11.9 (#2)
Howard: 11.8 (#1)
PER 48 Differential:
Bynum: 10.7 (#2)
Howard: 16.3 (#1)
The two flip-flop between #1 and #2 equally. Obviously the only player that would be eligible to win DPOY would be the one who plays the majority of his team's Center position minutes and plays 80 games instead of 50+. |
Yes, but if we include the defensive +/- ranking, which you wanted to include in you total ranking including offense but just stick to defense which is what I'm talking about then we should take into consideration the following stat as well...
Teams +/- Points Allowed When they are on the court: (Lower is better)
# 1 Bynum: -4.9
# 2 Howard: +4.8
So now Drew would be ahead in THREE of the FIVE comparisons thus a MAJORITY....
... AND.... If we look at each player based on the stats I had posted compared to where each player stood against their PEERS AT CENTER (ranking position among Centers) THEN DREW COMES OUT AHEAD ONCE AGAIN.... SEE TOTAL RANKING BELOW using the position averages each player ranks in each category....
Blocked Shot Percentage:
# 1 Bynum: 4.7%
# 2 Duncan: 4.1%
# 3 Howard: 3.8%
# 4 Jefferson: 3.4%
# 5 Lopez: 2.7%
# 6 Chandler: 2.6%
# 7 Noah: 2.6%
# 8 Horford: 2%
# 9 Nene: 1.6%
eFG Allowed:
# 1 Bynum: 45.1%
# 2 Howard: 48.2%
# 3 Horford: 48.2%
# 4 Duncan: 48.7%
# 5 Jefferson: 48.9%
# 6 Lopez: 49.3%
# 7 Nene: 49.3%
# 8 Chandler: 50.4%
# 9 Noah: 57.5%
PER48 Allowed:
# 1 Bynum: 10.4
# 2 Howard: 13.2
# 3 Duncan: 15.8
# 4 Chandler: 17.0
# 5 Horford: 17.1
# 6 Lopez: 17.1
# 7 Jefferson: 17.2
# 8 Nene: 17.6
# 9 Noah: 20.2
PER48 Differential:
# 1 Howard: +13
# 2 Bynum: +10.8
# 3 Horford: +7.2
# 4 Duncan: +7.0
# 5 Nene: +5.2
# 6 Chandler: +2.1
# 7 Jefferson: +2
# 8 Lopez: +1.4
# 9 Noah: +0.7
Teams +/- Points Allowed When they are on the court: (Lower is better)
# 1 Chandler: -6.1
# 2 Bynum: -4.9
# 3 Duncan: -4.9
# 4 Horford: -0.6
# 5 Nene: -0.5
# 6 Noah: +6.5
# 7 Lopez: +2.7
# 8 Howard: +4.8
# 9 Jefferson: +10.7
Let's TOTAL the RANKING for EACH CENTER (take the total ranked positions and divide by the number of categories listed):
Ranking (smaller number best):
1. Bynum - 7 (7/5) = 1.4
2. Howard - 16 (16/5) = 3.2
2. Duncan - 16 (16/5) = 3.2
3. Horford - 23 (23/5) = 4.6
4. Chandler - 25 (25/5) = 5.0
5. Lopez - 32 (32/5) = 6.4
5. Jefferson - 32 (32/5) = 6.4
6. Nene - 34 (34/5) = 6.8
7. Noah - 40 (40/5) = 8.0
I realize that it can depend upon what you want to measure on the DEFENSIVE END... and I realize these ranking ended up different at years end (I'm to lazy to do all of this over again for year end numbers)... but I would not be surprised to find Drew STILL AHEAD at the END OF THE YEAR using this method of RANKING ALL CENTERS.... AGAIN THIS IS ONLY DEFENSE.... WHICH IS WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT... AGAIN I TOTALLY AGREE OVERALL DWIGHT IS THE BETTER PLAYER PRESENTLY!!!!!
... BUT... By including the ranking of each player compared to their peers at their position one can argue that Drew is equal to or BETTER than Dwight STATISTICALLY....
.... IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT "STATISTICALLY" which does not necessarily completely representative of course, but is a valid barometer nevertheless....
... and lastly.... THE FACT DWIGHT IS A TWO YEAR RUNNING DPOY PLAYER CURRENTLY THIS SAYS A WHOLE LOT ABOUT DREW'S TALENT AND PRESENCE ON DEFENSE.... WOULD YOU AGREE? |
First off, I disagree that we're ONLY talking about Defense. The original stats provided were just defensive, but if you're talking about where Drew ranks among all centers AND consider the fact the the game is two ways, then you MUST include offensive numbers.
And considering Howard is #1 or #2 defensively AND #1 offensively, while Bynum is #1 or #2 defensively and #6 or #7 offensively, it's quite clear that Dwight Howard is head and shoulders ahead of Andrew Bynum, as a complete basketball player.
Then you throw in the health factor, the longevity factor, the 3x DPOY, the All-Star games.... and it kind of becomes a joke really.
Secondly, I find it odd that you choose to discredit the +/- Points Scored, but continute to tout the +/- Points Allowed stat. Speaking of that +/- Points Allowed, it is peculiar that the order of this ranking parallels, ascendingly, the amount of minutes per game played by each player:
Teams +/- Points Allowed When they are on the court: (Lower is better)
# 1 Chandler: -6.1 (MPG: 27.8)
# 2 Bynum: -4.9 (MPG: 27.8)
# 3 Duncan: -4.9 (MPG: 28.4)
# 4 Horford: -0.6 (MPG: 35.1)
# 5 Nene: -0.5 (MPG: 30.5)
# 6 Noah: +6.5 (MPG: 32.8)
# 7 Lopez: +2.7 (MPG: 35.2)
# 8 Howard: +4.8 (MPG: 37.6)
# 9 Jefferson: +10.7 (MPG: 35.9)
Is there a pattern here? Do more minutes played have something to do with the amount of exposure a player has to playing with lesser quality lineups, thus negatively impacting his +/- stats? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
zurich78
Star Player
Joined: 09 Jul 2010
Posts: 2661
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fallout wrote: | | postandpivot wrote: | | Fallout wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | Quote: | | Drew's DEFENSIVE stats are not only comparable but are actually OVERALL BETTER than Howard's DEFENSIVE stats as proven by this thread... |
There are not BETTER than Howard's. They are equal. |
Although not in the DPOY voting...
http://www.nba.com/2011/news/04/18/dwight-howard-defensive-player-release/index.html
Votes:
Dwight Howard Magic 585
Kevin Garnett Celtics 77
Andrew Bynum Lakers 3
Huge disparity between first and second. Actually D12 got more votes than everyone combined. |
what was the point of you showing us VOTES? that has nothing to do with reality. when the votes are that far apart. when ROn wasnt even up there. you know there's a problem. so leave the "votes" out of this discussion. we're talking stats. not popularity contest. |
The reality is that people outside Lakers land recognize D12 for his defensive prowess. Its only here that people have rose tinted glasses. |
Yikes. I wouldn't imply that people here have rose tinted glasses, you get warned for that kind of stuff here.
I will say though, that I think Bynum could be as good as Howard but he just needs to prove it. Anything else is just conjecture. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fallout
Star Player
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 7626
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| zurich78 wrote: |
Yikes. I wouldn't imply that people here have rose tinted glasses, you get warned for that kind of stuff here.
I will say though, that I think Bynum could be as good as Howard but he just needs to prove it. Anything else is just conjecture. |
Why would I get warned for stating the facts? Take a look at D12's stats and accomplishments at NBA.com. Do the same for Drew. Then tell me why Drew is better. Truth is, outside Lakers land, people see D12 as a far superior player as shown by the DPOY voting as an example.
You can't just pick and choose things to support an argument and ignore other things. I'm Laker fan first, player fan second. I see D12 as next franchise player and next Laker dominant big man IF D12 is available next year.
_________________
The journey to 17 begins... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
zurich78
Star Player
Joined: 09 Jul 2010
Posts: 2661
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fallout wrote: | | zurich78 wrote: |
Yikes. I wouldn't imply that people here have rose tinted glasses, you get warned for that kind of stuff here.
I will say though, that I think Bynum could be as good as Howard but he just needs to prove it. Anything else is just conjecture. |
Why would I get warned for stating the facts? Take a look at D12's stats and accomplishments at NBA.com. Do the same for Drew. Then tell me why Drew is better. Truth is, outside Lakers land, people see D12 as a far superior player as shown by the DPOY voting as an example.
You can't just pick and choose things to support an argument and ignore other things. I'm Laker fan first, player fan second. I see D12 as next franchise player and next Laker dominant big man IF D12 is available next year. |
No one can argue with your statement about the facts, and the accolades and the statements made by NOTABLE players and coaches.
The only arguments are either personal opinions and/or small statistical sample sizes.
I agree with you bro, I'm just saying, tread lightly! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LA_Lakers_Rule
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Fallout wrote: | | LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | Fallout wrote: | | LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: |
Hmmmm.... just kind of an obvious point....
.... do you think that the fact Drew did not start PLAYING at the beginning of the season but instead came into the season a few months late HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS?
Oh and this is not to mention besides the fact Drew did not start the year that Dwight was the "incumbent" DPOY player as well.... and as a result voters had in many cases already made up their minds... |
Why was he late? oh yeah injuries. You can't play defense when you're injured. You can't contribute to the team when you're not on the floor. Another reason why DPOY was well deserved for D12. Next year might be closer, if Drew can play all the games. |
Injuries have nothing at all to do with "TALENT" which is what we are talking about...
... I didn't hold it against Odom or Kobe when they couldn't play due to injury...
... I know your going to mention frequency of injury as a response... and we all know Drew has had more than his share of bad luck in this area...
... I tend to NOT assume injury for ANY player... your welcome to take a different approach of course...
... the bottom line is that a HEALTHY Drew is minimally on par with Dwight defensively and Drew is TWO YEARS younger btw... END OF STORY....
... Point being... If Drew can stay healthy the NEXT TWO years he could conceivably have the SAME number of DPOY awards at the same age that Dwight does now at that same age.... assuming the voting is fair of course.... |
What does age has to do with anything? D12 was DPOY two years ago also FYI. Or you think the voting is rigged. |
Do I really need to answer these questions?
Why does age matter?.... Well, wouldn't it be nice if Kobe was two years younger?.... or Gasol or Odom for that matter?
... are we going to place the same value on a player leaving his prime as a player entering his prime all else being relatively equal?
... Oh and just in case you don't get the above... these examples have nothing DIRECTLY to do with Howard... or Drew for that matter... just hypothetical examples to make a point why age matters... I figured I'd better explain this since you might not understand this either...
Next question ---- YES, D12 was two years age... AND YOU POINT? Of course you realize that Drew WAS ALSO TWO YEARS YOUNGER AT THAT TIME.... RIGHT?
Now let me ask you a question... Why would I think the voting was rigged?
It is clear that you simply did not understand my point...
What I am saying is that IT IS POSSIBLE THAT DREW COULD WIN DPOY AWARDS AT ABOUT THE SAME AGE THAT HOWARD WON HIS.... GET IT? 
... Of course that's what I said before AND that was all I was saying, possibly I have made it more clear this time around...
.... Directly to the point... Drew may very well be able to produce at a similar level as Dwight at about the same age Dwight has produced at that same age... Hmmm, I guess I basically said the same thing all over again that I said above that apparently confused you... Oh well, if this doesn't help... well never mind... 
_________________
Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LA_Lakers_Rule
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Jeffs wrote: | | I wonder what would happen if this thread was linked to a non-Laker message board. |
LG members are generally smarter than members of other message boards... ... But you know that, right? 
... Oh and I would add.... I frankly don't care what non-Laker message boards have to say... Do you?
_________________
Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vanexelent
Retired Number
Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 30081
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | Fallout wrote: | | LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | Fallout wrote: | | LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: |
Hmmmm.... just kind of an obvious point....
.... do you think that the fact Drew did not start PLAYING at the beginning of the season but instead came into the season a few months late HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS?
Oh and this is not to mention besides the fact Drew did not start the year that Dwight was the "incumbent" DPOY player as well.... and as a result voters had in many cases already made up their minds... |
Why was he late? oh yeah injuries. You can't play defense when you're injured. You can't contribute to the team when you're not on the floor. Another reason why DPOY was well deserved for D12. Next year might be closer, if Drew can play all the games. |
Injuries have nothing at all to do with "TALENT" which is what we are talking about...
... I didn't hold it against Odom or Kobe when they couldn't play due to injury...
... I know your going to mention frequency of injury as a response... and we all know Drew has had more than his share of bad luck in this area...
... I tend to NOT assume injury for ANY player... your welcome to take a different approach of course...
... the bottom line is that a HEALTHY Drew is minimally on par with Dwight defensively and Drew is TWO YEARS younger btw... END OF STORY....
... Point being... If Drew can stay healthy the NEXT TWO years he could conceivably have the SAME number of DPOY awards at the same age that Dwight does now at that same age.... assuming the voting is fair of course.... |
What does age has to do with anything? D12 was DPOY two years ago also FYI. Or you think the voting is rigged. |
Do I really need to answer these questions?
Why does age matter?.... Well, wouldn't it be nice if Kobe was two years younger?.... or Gasol or Odom for that matter?
... are we going to place the same value on a player leaving his prime as a player entering his prime all else being relatively equal?
... Oh and just in case you don't get the above... these examples have nothing DIRECTLY to do with Howard... or Drew for that matter... just hypothetical examples to make a point why age matters... I figured I'd better explain this since you might not understand this either...
Next question ---- YES, D12 was two years age... AND YOU POINT? Of course you realize that Drew WAS ALSO TWO YEARS YOUNGER AT THAT TIME.... RIGHT?
Now let me ask you a question... Why would I think the voting was rigged?
It is clear that you simply did not understand my point...
What I am saying is that IT IS POSSIBLE THAT DREW COULD WIN DPOY AWARDS AT ABOUT THE SAME AGE THAT HOWARD WON HIS.... GET IT?
... Of course that's what I said before AND that was all I was saying, possibly I have made it more clear this time around...
.... Directly to the point... Drew may very well be able to produce at a similar level as Dwight at about the same age Dwight has produced at that same age... Hmmm, I guess I basically said the same thing all over again that I said above that apparently confused you... Oh well, if this doesn't help... well never mind... |
Age matters because it's associated with health, stamina and longevity. All things that do NOT define Andrew Bynum's young career. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LA_Lakers_Rule
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| vanexelent wrote: | | LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | Blocked Shot %
Bynum: 4.2 (#1 rank)
Howard: 3.9 (#2 rank)
eFG Allowed:
Bynum: .447 (#1)
Howard: .450 (#2)
PER 48 Allowed:
Bynum 11.9 (#2)
Howard: 11.8 (#1)
PER 48 Differential:
Bynum: 10.7 (#2)
Howard: 16.3 (#1)
The two flip-flop between #1 and #2 equally. Obviously the only player that would be eligible to win DPOY would be the one who plays the majority of his team's Center position minutes and plays 80 games instead of 50+. |
Yes, but if we include the defensive +/- ranking, which you wanted to include in you total ranking including offense but just stick to defense which is what I'm talking about then we should take into consideration the following stat as well...
Teams +/- Points Allowed When they are on the court: (Lower is better)
# 1 Bynum: -4.9
# 2 Howard: +4.8
So now Drew would be ahead in THREE of the FIVE comparisons thus a MAJORITY....
... AND.... If we look at each player based on the stats I had posted compared to where each player stood against their PEERS AT CENTER (ranking position among Centers) THEN DREW COMES OUT AHEAD ONCE AGAIN.... SEE TOTAL RANKING BELOW using the position averages each player ranks in each category....
Blocked Shot Percentage:
# 1 Bynum: 4.7%
# 2 Duncan: 4.1%
# 3 Howard: 3.8%
# 4 Jefferson: 3.4%
# 5 Lopez: 2.7%
# 6 Chandler: 2.6%
# 7 Noah: 2.6%
# 8 Horford: 2%
# 9 Nene: 1.6%
eFG Allowed:
# 1 Bynum: 45.1%
# 2 Howard: 48.2%
# 3 Horford: 48.2%
# 4 Duncan: 48.7%
# 5 Jefferson: 48.9%
# 6 Lopez: 49.3%
# 7 Nene: 49.3%
# 8 Chandler: 50.4%
# 9 Noah: 57.5%
PER48 Allowed:
# 1 Bynum: 10.4
# 2 Howard: 13.2
# 3 Duncan: 15.8
# 4 Chandler: 17.0
# 5 Horford: 17.1
# 6 Lopez: 17.1
# 7 Jefferson: 17.2
# 8 Nene: 17.6
# 9 Noah: 20.2
PER48 Differential:
# 1 Howard: +13
# 2 Bynum: +10.8
# 3 Horford: +7.2
# 4 Duncan: +7.0
# 5 Nene: +5.2
# 6 Chandler: +2.1
# 7 Jefferson: +2
# 8 Lopez: +1.4
# 9 Noah: +0.7
Teams +/- Points Allowed When they are on the court: (Lower is better)
# 1 Chandler: -6.1
# 2 Bynum: -4.9
# 3 Duncan: -4.9
# 4 Horford: -0.6
# 5 Nene: -0.5
# 6 Noah: +6.5
# 7 Lopez: +2.7
# 8 Howard: +4.8
# 9 Jefferson: +10.7
Let's TOTAL the RANKING for EACH CENTER (take the total ranked positions and divide by the number of categories listed):
Ranking (smaller number best):
1. Bynum - 7 (7/5) = 1.4
2. Howard - 16 (16/5) = 3.2
2. Duncan - 16 (16/5) = 3.2
3. Horford - 23 (23/5) = 4.6
4. Chandler - 25 (25/5) = 5.0
5. Lopez - 32 (32/5) = 6.4
5. Jefferson - 32 (32/5) = 6.4
6. Nene - 34 (34/5) = 6.8
7. Noah - 40 (40/5) = 8.0
I realize that it can depend upon what you want to measure on the DEFENSIVE END... and I realize these ranking ended up different at years end (I'm to lazy to do all of this over again for year end numbers)... but I would not be surprised to find Drew STILL AHEAD at the END OF THE YEAR using this method of RANKING ALL CENTERS.... AGAIN THIS IS ONLY DEFENSE.... WHICH IS WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT... AGAIN I TOTALLY AGREE OVERALL DWIGHT IS THE BETTER PLAYER PRESENTLY!!!!!
... BUT... By including the ranking of each player compared to their peers at their position one can argue that Drew is equal to or BETTER than Dwight STATISTICALLY....
.... IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT "STATISTICALLY" which does not necessarily completely representative of course, but is a valid barometer nevertheless....
... and lastly.... THE FACT DWIGHT IS A TWO YEAR RUNNING DPOY PLAYER CURRENTLY THIS SAYS A WHOLE LOT ABOUT DREW'S TALENT AND PRESENCE ON DEFENSE.... WOULD YOU AGREE? |
First off, I disagree that we're ONLY talking about Defense. The original stats provided were just defensive, but if you're talking about where Drew ranks among all centers AND consider the fact the the game is two ways, then you MUST include offensive numbers.
And considering Howard is #1 or #2 defensively AND #1 offensively, while Bynum is #1 or #2 defensively and #6 or #7 offensively, it's quite clear that Dwight Howard is head and shoulders ahead of Andrew Bynum, as a complete basketball player.
Then you throw in the health factor, the longevity factor, the 3x DPOY, the All-Star games.... and it kind of becomes a joke really.
Secondly, I find it odd that you choose to discredit the +/- Points Scored, but continute to tout the +/- Points Allowed stat. Speaking of that +/- Points Allowed, it is peculiar that the order of this ranking parallels, ascendingly, the amount of minutes per game played by each player:
Teams +/- Points Allowed When they are on the court: (Lower is better)
# 1 Chandler: -6.1 (MPG: 27.8)
# 2 Bynum: -4.9 (MPG: 27.8)
# 3 Duncan: -4.9 (MPG: 28.4)
# 4 Horford: -0.6 (MPG: 35.1)
# 5 Nene: -0.5 (MPG: 30.5)
# 6 Noah: +6.5 (MPG: 32.8)
# 7 Lopez: +2.7 (MPG: 35.2)
# 8 Howard: +4.8 (MPG: 37.6)
# 9 Jefferson: +10.7 (MPG: 35.9)
Is there a pattern here? Do more minutes played have something to do with the amount of exposure a player has to playing with lesser quality lineups, thus negatively impacting his +/- stats? |
vanexelent - You make vanEXELENT points just as you always do... and.... I BASICALLY AGREE WITH ALL THAT YOU'VE SAID....
I am not arguing that Bynum is as good as Dwight... far from it... But... what I AM SAYING is that Bynum is minimally comparable to Dwight on DEFENSE LAST YEAR....
... To be able to say this is frankly earth shattering in as much as Dwight is a DPOY talent player.... AS LAKER FANS WE SHOULD ALL CELEBRATE THIS FACT!!!! RIGHT?
To put in other words, when J. C. Smith posted those stats a couple of months ago or so I was frankly very pleasantly surprised to find that Drew was right up there with Dwight and arguably as good or better statistically... I WAS PROUD OF DREW AND HAPPY AS A LAKER FAN TO SEE THIS... (I certainly was not)...
So I decided to focus on this as an argument to support Drew in as much as I feel Drew deserved this NOTICE because I felt that some fans on this board may not have known how well Drew has been doing defensively this year... IT'S AS SIMPLE AS THAT... and I included a poll to see how fans on this board would rank Drew is all... NO BIG DEAL other than that...
My intentions were not necessarily to pit one player against another... only to see the consensus of fans on this board as far as how they would rank Drew among his peers...
... I frankly doubt that my focus on defense made that much difference or skewed the results that much in as much as we have members of this board who are smart enough to take into consideration everything else that I may nave not discussed about both players... In other words, my point was to bring up something that my have been overlooked regarding Drew which I can say for myself I had not been aware of so perhaps others may not have been either... WERE YOU AWARE OF THESE STATS PRIOR TO J. C. SMITH POSTING THEM?
People on this board can weigh what I've posted with all the other tangibles regarding these players just as you have...
Bottom line: I AGREE OF COURSE AS I'M SURE EVERYONE ELSE DOES THAT A PLAYERS ENTIRE GAME HAS TO BE CONSIDERED WHEN COMPARING PLAYERS AND I'M SURE THE VOTERS HAVE DONE THIS... on the other hand I feel that by my posting these stats it has helped some recognize stats about Drew they may not have been aware of... and I'd add I THINK MOST PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD ARE ALREADY COMPLETELY AWARE OF DWIGHT'S ADMIRABLE TALENT ON THE OFFENSIVE END.... You would agree, CORRECT?
_________________
Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LA_Lakers_Rule
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Fallout wrote: | | zurich78 wrote: |
Yikes. I wouldn't imply that people here have rose tinted glasses, you get warned for that kind of stuff here.
I will say though, that I think Bynum could be as good as Howard but he just needs to prove it. Anything else is just conjecture. |
Why would I get warned for stating the facts? Take a look at D12's stats and accomplishments at NBA.com. Do the same for Drew. Then tell me why Drew is better. Truth is, outside Lakers land, people see D12 as a far superior player as shown by the DPOY voting as an example. |
WHO HAS SAID DREW IS BETTER OVERALL?
... I'll be waiting on your answer... Oh and please post the examples if you will...
| Fallout wrote: | | You can't just pick and choose things to support an argument and ignore other things. I'm Laker fan first, player fan second. I see D12 as next franchise player and next Laker dominant big man IF D12 is available next year. |
We discuss different ASPECTS of a players game ALL THE TIME ON THIS BOARD... SO WHY NOT IN THIS CASE?
I'm a Laker fan first.... and as such SUPPORT the players on THIS LAKER TEAM... AND... I'm proud to find out any one player compares well to another player that is not only highly regarded but it's even more impressive when MY LAKER PLAYER happens to compare in an area that this other player has won awards i.e. DPOY...
Can I ask you this... Are you not as pleased as I am to know YOUR LAKER PLAYER has done so well in this area?
As a Laker fan FIRST and a player fan second (actually I care very little about non-Laker players to be honest) I tend to be happy when a Laker player DOES WELL... If Dwight becomes a Laker player then I'll do the same for him... but until that time I'm going to support the player who happens TO BE A LAKER!!!! (Oh and I'd add just as I had done in the past with Odom when he was getting the brunt of criticism from "Laker fans" on this board)....
To put it in simple terms... You see I AM NOT A BASKETBALL PUNDIT.... I AM A LAKER FAN!!!! ... and always have been since they moved to LA where I live....
_________________
Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
