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| Where does Drew REALLY rank among Centers? |
| #1 |
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5% |
[ 14 ] |
| #2 |
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54% |
[ 146 ] |
| #3 |
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14% |
[ 39 ] |
| #4 (please explain why) |
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5% |
[ 14 ] |
| #5 (please explain why) |
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7% |
[ 20 ] |
| Below #5 (Bynum haters only w/out explanation) |
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13% |
[ 36 ] |
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| Total Votes : 269 |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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Joined: 23 Aug 2004
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Location: The X-Files
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 Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | But, you can get them at 82games.com and basketball-reference.com. |
Thanks, but unless I'm missing something, 82 games provides "Production" figues, that while similar to PER are calculated differently and Basketball Reference only has pure PER among its stats. |
Those stats are from the Production by Position section, LINK: 82games.com - Andrew Bynum |
Have you had time to apply your ratio system yet? |
Blocked Shot Percentage: Statistically BYNUM BETTER by .1% - % ratio: 3% BETTER
eFG Allowed: Statistically BYNUM BETTER by .5% - % ratio: 2% BETTER
PER48 Differential: Statistically BYNUM WORSE by .8 - % ratio: 6% WORSE
PER48 Differential: Statistically BYNUM WORSE by 3.3 - % ratio: 26% WORSE
Teams +/- Points Allowed: Statistically BYNUM WORSE by 3.3 - % ratio: 52% WORSE
Bynum +3% + 2% - 6% - 26% - 52% / 5 = 15.8% WORSE DEFENSIVELY percentage wise based on the STATS PROVIDED....
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Fallout
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Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 7626
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | Fallout wrote: | | TampaChamp1688 wrote: | | waterman40 wrote: | | This year I think is the first year you could really say Bynum ahs emerged and played like the #2 center in the league. The gap between him and Howard is still huge, but Drew has gone from "if he's healthy he could...." to actually doing it on the floor. |
I still think Andrew has a more refined offensive game, and is more physically imposing even than Dwight. Bynum would put up same numbers as Howard, and maybe even better, in Orlando. |
Bynum's has a limited array of moves which are pretty predictable. He does not have a more refined game than D12. But Bynum does have strength and length which he uses well. But still concern about his knees. He has some minor bangs this season with the latest one needing that injection after the OKH game. |
Disagree with everything bolded and vehemently disagree with the RED part....
.... Bynum's mechanics are FAR GREATER than D12 including his "footwork", "shooting" mechanics including his "free throw" mechanics.... Drew has been shooting around 80% from the line for a several games now, Dwight can NOT do this....
.... I have no idea what "minor bangs" your talking about but the "injection" was a schedule treatment planned to have been done at the All-Star break which is WHAT HAPPENED.... THE INJECTION HAD NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH "INJURY" IMPLICATIONS.... IT WAS PLANNED (scheduled for that time of the year)....
.... It seems you continually see "dark clouds" where there ARE NOT ANY in regards to Bynum.... Presumably what you "hope" for apparently.... |
My mistake, that injection, from the article, thought it was for after the game. He had a couple games that had some minor bangs. Or did you forget the OKC game?
http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/7627567/los-angeles-lakers-andrew-bynum-practices-cleared-game-vs-minnesota-wolves
"Oklahoma City's Kevin Durant collided with Bynum's knee late in the Lakers' 100-85 loss to the Thunder on Thursday and Bynum said he needed to "ice the heck out" of his knee after the game to reduce the swelling in order for his physician, Dr. David Altchek, to be able to administer the injection the next day."
Drew is better shooting free throws I agree with that.
Bynum is shooting 115-178 or 64%.
D12 is shooting 217-443 which is a miserable 49%.
FG:
Bynum 235-419 56%
D12 320-564 56%
Bynum isn't shooting mid range jumpers. He's a better FT shooter but I wouldn't be calling him 'far greater'.
How is Bynum's footwork 'far greater'?
| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: |
.... It seems you continually see "dark clouds" where there ARE NOT ANY in regards to Bynum.... Presumably what you "hope" for apparently.... |
You can't ignore his past injuries which you do. Why would any one hope for ill things for Bynum? Makes zero sense since any Bynum injury hurts the Lakers.
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Last edited by Fallout on Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ribeye
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Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 12632
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:29 am Post subject: Re: Where does Drew REALLY rank among NBA Centers? |
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Thanks.
If you notice, Production and PER are not the same--similar but different. According Roland Beech, PER and Production (and even the production numbers in the team summary and in the position breakdown) use different metrics.
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | But, you can get them at 82games.com and basketball-reference.com. |
Thanks, but unless I'm missing something, 82 games provides "Production" figues, that while similar to PER are calculated differently and Basketball Reference only has pure PER among its stats. |
Those stats are from the Production by Position section, LINK: 82games.com - Andrew Bynum |
Have you had time to apply your ratio system yet? |
Blocked Shot Percentage: Statistically BYNUM BETTER by .1% - % ratio: 3% BETTER
eFG Allowed: Statistically BYNUM BETTER by .5% - % ratio: 2% BETTER
PER48 Differential: Statistically BYNUM WORSE by .8 - % ratio: 6% WORSE
PER48 Differential: Statistically BYNUM WORSE by 3.3 - % ratio: 26% WORSE
Teams +/- Points Allowed: Statistically BYNUM WORSE by 3.3 - % ratio: 52% WORSE
Bynum +3% + 2% - 6% - 26% - 52% / 5 = 15.8% WORSE DEFENSIVELY percentage wise based on the STATS PROVIDED.... |
So, based on your ratios from last season and this season, there's been a 50% downward swing for Bynum, compared to Howard? (+35% to -15.8%)
Why do you think Byunum has fallen so far from last season?  As a team we are playing better defensively, so you'd think Bynum would be the catalyst, since he's our anchor. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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Joined: 23 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | But, you can get them at 82games.com and basketball-reference.com. |
Thanks, but unless I'm missing something, 82 games provides "Production" figues, that while similar to PER are calculated differently and Basketball Reference only has pure PER among its stats. |
Those stats are from the Production by Position section, LINK: 82games.com - Andrew Bynum |
Have you had time to apply your ratio system yet? |
Blocked Shot Percentage: Statistically BYNUM BETTER by .1% - % ratio: 3% BETTER
eFG Allowed: Statistically BYNUM BETTER by .5% - % ratio: 2% BETTER
PER48 Differential: Statistically BYNUM WORSE by .8 - % ratio: 6% WORSE
PER48 Differential: Statistically BYNUM WORSE by 3.3 - % ratio: 26% WORSE
Teams +/- Points Allowed: Statistically BYNUM WORSE by 3.3 - % ratio: 52% WORSE
Bynum +3% + 2% - 6% - 26% - 52% / 5 = 15.8% WORSE DEFENSIVELY percentage wise based on the STATS PROVIDED.... |
So, based on your ratios from last season and this season, there's been a 50% downward swing for Bynum, compared to Howard? (+35% to -15.8%)
Why do you think Byunum has fallen so far from last season? As a team we are playing better defensively, so you'd think Bynum would be the catalyst, since he's our anchor. |
Good question....
.... comparing last year to this year we have the following:
Blocked Shot Percentage:
Last year:
Bynum: 4.7%
Howard: 3.8%
This year:
Bynum: 3.6%
Howard: 3.5%
Bynum -1.1%, Howard -.3% = Change: Bynum lost .8% to Howard overall
Possible answer: Bynum is playing along side Gasol more who is a decent shot blocker thus the need is slightly lower. Also Bynum missed the first four games thus got a slow start because this stat is improving very quickly for Drew and I would not be surprised if Drew passes Dwight eventually in blocks.
eFG Allowed:
Last year:
Bynum: 45.1%
Howard: 48.2%
This year:
Bynum: 44.5%
Howard: 45%
Bynum - .6%, Howard +3.2% = Change: Bynum lost by a margin of 3.8% to Howard overall
Possible answer: Without Odom's defense when they were on the floor together allowed Bynum to stay with his man more than now. Also Fisher is that much worse defensively thus percentages are down to cover his and others butts.
PER48 Allowed:
Last year:
Bynum: 10.4
Howard: 13.2
This year:
Howard: 12.7
Bynum: 13.5
Bynum - 3.1, Howard +.5 = Change: Bynum lost by a margin of 3.6 to Howard overall
Possible answer: Odom getting traded means that Bynum has to provide more more "help" defense when they were on the floor together. Also Bynum is playing with the 2nd team more thus would need to provide more "help" defense for this reason as well. And of course the perimeter defense is probably worse with the 37 year old Fisher still starting at PG.
PER48 Differential:
Last year:
Howard: +13
Bynum: +10.8
This year:
Howard: +12.4
Bynum: +9.1
Bynum - 1.7, Howard +.6 = Change: Bynum lost by a margin of 2.3 to Howard overall
Possible answer: Same reasons as the last two. Also as we can see not only are Drew's numbers significantly down (for the possible reasons mentioned) but the stats for Howard are generally marginally up to his credit thus magnifying the difference overall between the two players.
Teams +/- Points Allowed When they are on the court: (Lower is better):
Last year:
Bynum: -4.9
Howard: +4.8
This year:
Howard: -6.4
Bynum: -3.1
Bynum - 1.8, Howard +11.2 = Change: Bynum lost by a huge margin of 13 to Howard overall
Possible answer: Probably the easiest to explain in that if I'm not mistaken the rotation Brown uses after the first substitutions in the first quarter will often find Bynum on the floor with the second unit thus the +/- will suffer for Bynum for this reason to a large extent. And I would add that I think most people would agree that the second unit on this club is challenged to score points even more so than last years team. Also another big reason is that Brown places less emphasis on "offense" than Phil did last year. This by FAR THE GREATEST MARGIN DIFFERENCE and HOWARD IMPROVED DRAMATICALLY. A better question (in as much as Drew did not change THAT much) would be to ask WHY did Howard do so badly last year compared to this year in as much as the difference between Drew and Howard are not that significant THIS year as compared to last year and Drew has not changed that much from last year.
Conclusion: The combination of generally marginal improvements by Howard and generally marginal diminished numbers by Drew compared to last year are what accounts for the differences between the players from one year to the next with the one exception of the "+/-" stat. What I'm saying is that Howard has had generally marginal improvements over Drew OVERALL of .8, 3.8, 3.6, 2.3 and then finally there is this HUGE improvement by a wide margin of 11.2 for the "+/-" stat. So the really BIG difference is the "+/-" DIFFERENCE as we can see which accounts for the MAJOR DIFFERENCE between the two compared to last year.
Since it is the +/- that makes the biggest difference between the two compared to last year..... I'll ask YOU, WHY THE REALLY BIG IMPROVEMENT IN +/- FROM LAST YEAR REGARDING HOWARD?
..... Could it be the emergence of Ryan Anderson with all his numbers improving significantly compared to last year? .... Ya got me on this one.... the Magic win percentage is currently IDENTICAL to last year and the team scoring isn't measurably different (maybe 3-4 points more this year I think but not sure I haven't check it out) but is maybe a tad higher this year yet Howard has an improved +/- by a huge margin of 11.2 compared to last year.... And of course this stat has to do with who else is on the floor at the time the player is on the floor.... Kudos to Howard, but then again the +/- can be misleading as we all know and is a consequence of all FIVE players on the floor as I've mentioned....
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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vanexelent - To follow up on my question about the huge difference in "+/-" for Howard this year compared to last year..... I mentioned that perhaps this years team is scoring more points....
.... Actually this years Magic team is averaging significantly less points per game..... it turns out this years team is averaging 5.3 ppg less than last years.... so I decided to look at the offensive versus defensive rating compared to this year and last to see what we could find there....
Last year: Offensive rating = 107.7, Defensive rating = 101.8
This year: Offensive rating = 104.3, Defensive rating = 101.8
Frankly, I can't really account for the huge uptick to the extent that it was in the "+/-" for Howard.... based on the team ratings for both "offense" and "defense" one cannot account for this big of a "+/-" change.... Thus it would have to be the player rotations the year along with perhaps an overall improvement by Howard to some extent that would account for the significant change in this stat I guess....
.... So what's your opinion vanexelent? 
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:07 am Post subject: |
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So vanexelent, then you have no opinions on the subject of why the predominant reason for the difference between the two players has occurred that is to say the "+/-" change between last year and this year so far?
.... I've offered a few ideas to try and answer your question.... you have none?
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Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | So vanexelent, then you have no opinions on the subject of why the predominant reason for the difference between the two players has occurred that is to say the "+/-" change between last year and this year so far?
.... I've offered a few ideas to try and answer your question.... you have none? |
As a caveat, I have not read all of your posts with discrimination and this is a quick thought.
Last year Howard (whom I thought should be MVP) had a Production differential of 18.6 and a +/- of 10.4. This year they are 14.5 and 15.0 respectively--mano-a-mano down, team play up. Could just be simple year to year deviations or . . .
Last year, Anderson was 5.0 and 6.1; this year, 8.4 and 18.0. Anderson has matured and stepped up his man play which could have lowered Howard's, as maybe Howard can devote more to team defense. But more importantly, Anderson stepped up team play and since they play together more often than not, Anderson's overall team play of +18 reflects upon Howard's overall team play.
Just a thought.
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:11 am Post subject: |
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^ Great points, I'm inclined to think Anderson has something to do with it.... which I had hinted at before...
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Cookies & Cream
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Bynum is #2, no doubt... |
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Flyingplayer77
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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Bynum is rising. 
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SteveMachine
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Bynum plays a style of game that can produce when he's in his mid-30s and has lost his athleticism. I'm not sure I can say the same for Dwight, at least offensively. |
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