Where does Drew REALLY rank among NBA Centers?
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Where does Drew REALLY rank among Centers?
#1
5%
 5%  [ 14 ]
#2
54%
 54%  [ 146 ]
#3
14%
 14%  [ 39 ]
#4 (please explain why)
5%
 5%  [ 14 ]
#5 (please explain why)
7%
 7%  [ 20 ]
Below #5 (Bynum haters only w/out explanation)
13%
 13%  [ 36 ]
Total Votes : 269

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LA_Lakers_Rule
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:02 am    Post subject:

vanexelent - I did notice some Centers posted twice for the same category... for example PER 48 Allowed has Noah at #8 and #13....

... might want to fix those Centers with more than one ranking... probably the wrong name applied to one of the rankings is all it is...
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:05 am    Post subject:

Bump...

2010-2011 Year End Totals:

DEFENSE:

Blocked Shot %:

#1. Bynum
#2. Howard
#2. Duncan
#3. Hibbert
#3. Okafor
#4. Mark Gasol
#5. Jefferson
#6. Stoudamire
#7. Noah
#7. Brooke Lopez
#8. Pau Gasol
#8. Gortat
#9. Tyson Chandler
#10. Nene
#11. Horford
#12. Greg Monroe (Detroit)

eFG% Allowed:
#1. Bynum
#2. Howard
#3. Jefferson
#4. Marc Gasol
#5. Gortat
#6. Duncan
#7. Pau Gasol
#7. Okafor
#8. Horford
#9. Hibbert
#10. Brook Lopez
#11. Noah
#12. Chandler
#13. Nene
#14. Stoudamire
#15. Monroe

PER 48 Allowed:
#1. Howard
#2. Bynum
#3. Marc Gasol
#4. Okafor
#5. Gortat
#6. Duncan
#7.Pau Gasol
#8. Jefferson
#9. Brooke Lopez
#10. Chandler
#11. Horford
#12. Hibbert
#13. Noah
#14. Stoudamire
#15. Monroe

PER 48 Differential:
#1. Howard
#2. Bynum
#3. Pau Gasol
#4. Duncan
#5. Horford
#6. Stoudamire
#7. Jefferson
#8. Gortat
#9. Marc Gasol
#10. Nene
#11. Okafor
#11. Chandler
#12. Lopez
#13. Noah
#14. Hibbert
#15. Monroe

OFFENSE:

eFG:
#1 Chandler
#2. Nen
#3. Howard
#4. Okafor
#5. Bynum
#6. Gortat
#7. Horford
#8. Monroe
#9. Marc Gasol
#10. Noah
#11. Stoudamire
#12. Pau Gasol
#13. Jefferson
#13. Duncan
#14. Brooke Lopez
#15. Hibbert

PER 48:
#1. Howard
#2. Pau Gasol
#2. Stoudamire
#3. Horford
#4. Duncan
#5. Bynum
#6. Nene
#7. Jefferson
#8. Chandler
#9. Noah
#10. B. Lopez
#11. Monroe
#12. Marc Gasol
#13. Okafor
#14. Hibbert

Points PER 48:
#1. Stoudamire
#2. Howard
#3. B. Lopez
#4. Jefferson
#5. Paul Gasol
#6. Nene
#7. Duncan
#8. Hibbert
#9. Gortat
#10. Horford
#11. Bynum
#12. Marc Gasol
#13. Chandler
#14. Noah
#15. Monroe
#16. Okafor

Assists PER 48:
#1. Horford
#2. Pau Gasol
#2. Duncan
#3. Marc Gasol
#4. Noah
#4. Stoudamire
#4. Hibbert
#5. Nene
#6. Jefferson
#7. Bynum
#7. Monroe
#8. B. Lopez
#9. Howard
#10. Gortat
#11. Okafor
#12. Chandler

Offense/Defense:

Net +/- On Court/Off Court:
#1. Howard
#2. Pau Gasol
#3. Duncan
#4. Chandler
#5. Nene
#6. Okafor
#7. Horford
#8. Gortat
#9. Marc Gasol
#10. Stoudamire
#11. Hibbert
#12. Monroe
#13. Bynum
#14. Lopez
#14. Jefferson
#15. Noah


Last edited by vanexelent on Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:10 am    Post subject:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
Bump...

2010-2011 Year End Totals:

DEFENSE:

Blocked Shot %:
#1. Bynum
#2. Howard
#2. Duncan
#3. Hibbert
#3. Okafor
#4. Mark Gasol
#5. Jefferson
#6. Stoudamire
#7. Noah
#7. Brooke Lopez
#8. Pau Gasol
#8. Gortat
#9. Tyson Chandler
#10. Nene
#11. Horford
#12. Greg Monroe (Detroit)

eFG% Allowed:
#1. Bynum
#2. Howard
#3. Jefferson
#4. Marc Gasol
#5. Gortat
#6. Duncan
#7. Pau Gasol
#7. Okafor
#8. Horford
#9. Hibbert
#10. Brook Lopez
#11. Noah
#12. Chandler
#13. Nene
#14. Stoudamire
#15. Monroe

PER 48 Allowed:
#1. Howard
#2. Bynum
#3. Marc Gasol
#4. Okafor
#5. Gortat
#6. Duncan
#7.Pau Gasol
#8. Noah
#9. Brooke Lopez
#10. Chandler
#11. Horford
#12. Hibbert
#13. Noah
#14. Stoudamire
#15. Monroe

PER 48 Differential:
#1. Howard
#2. Bynum
#3. Pau Gasol
#4. Duncan
#5. Horford
#6. Stoudamire
#7. Jefferson
#8. Gortat
#9. Marc Gasol
#10. Nene
#11. Okafor
#11. Chandler
#12. Lopez
#13. Noah
#14. Hibbert
#15. Monroe

Net +/- On Court/Off Court:
#1. Howard
#2. Pau Gasol
#3. Duncan
#4. Chandler
#5. Nene
#6. Okafor
#7. Horford
#8. Gortat
#9. Marc Gasol
#10. Stoudamire
#11. Hibbert
#12. Monroe
#13. Bynum
#14. Lopez
#14. Jefferson
#15. Noah

Howard = 1.4
Bynum = 3.8
Duncan = 4.2
Pau Gasol = 5.4


I found your post in my history....

... Is there anything wrong with what you posted?

.... Any reason why you deleted the bump?


.... I noticed that it is the +/- that kills Drew....

.... Take the +/- out of the equation and Drew ENDS UP TIED AT #1 ON DEFENSE with Dwight...

Using YOUR stats HERE IS THE BREAKDOWN OF THE TOP-5 Centers on DEFENSE (w/out the +/1 which I don't have a lot of confidence in anyway as far as a reliable stat because the other 4 players on the floor impact that stat even more so than the player measured):

#1 Dwight 1.5
#1 Drew 1.5
#3 Duncan 4.5
#4 M. Gasol 5.0
#5 Okafor 6.2
#5 P. Gasol 6.2


... Again, as we can ALL see... based on your numbers, Howard and Andrew TIED at the top and a BIG GAP as far as the rest of the Centers...


I just noticed that you posted a reply to why you deleted your post...

... How about LEAVING OUT THE +/- in your stats...

... Reason being... the stat is SO DEPENDENT UPON WHO THE OTHER FOUR PLAYERS ARE ON THE FLOOR WITH THE PLAYER MEASURED... It can be an interesting stat but I think you and others would totally agree that THE +/- STAT IS NOT NEARLY AS RELIABLE AS INDIVIDUAL STAT NUMBERS FOR A SPECIFIC AREA OF AN INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS GAME

I think ALL would agree with the fact that the +/- stat is so largely impacted on who's on the floor with the player being measured as opposed to most other stats that basically measure the individual players production much more accurately and more directly.... You would AGREE.... RIGHT?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:18 am    Post subject:

Oh c'mon, LLR. The only reason why you think it's so unreliable and don't want it included is because Drew places so low in it. But if he were top 5 in +/-, you'd be all over it, being you're such as stats guy and all.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:20 am    Post subject:

Quote:
I just noticed that you posted a reply to why you deleted your post...

... How about LEAVING OUT THE +/- in your stats...

... Reason being... the stat is SO DEPENDENT UPON WHO THE OTHER FOUR PLAYERS ARE ON THE FLOOR WITH THE PLAYER MEASURED... It can be an interesting stat but I think you and others would totally agree that THE +/- STAT IS NOT NEARLY AS RELIABLE AS INDIVIDUAL STAT NUMBERS FOR A SPECIFIC AREA OF AN INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS GAME

I think ALL would agree with the fact that the +/- stat is so largely impacted on who's on the floor with the player being measured as opposed to most other stats that basically measure the individual players production much more accurately and more directly.... You would AGREE.... RIGHT?


I included it because J.C's original defensive stats included "Teams Points Allowed" while player was on the floor. I thought it only fair to include "Team Points Scored" while player is on the floor as well, to give the offensive side of things. And, to make things easier, I just put up the +/- to reflect both.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:35 am    Post subject:

+/- stat - I agree it's misleading but I don't see a need to delete it. It might be more fun just to leave it in and see who's a big enough clown to try to hang his/her hat on that statistic and ignore the ones above it.

I think most posters were smart enough to figure out 2 months ago that Drew isn't just another ordinary center. Almost everyone had to admit it, because the games were on and, for those who actually WATCHED those games it was obvious Drew is a game-changer, not just some seven foot stiff.

Problem is, some people have a tendency to selectively filter such things, finding anything negative they can hang on and use it in order to build their own ladder of inference, convincing themselves they are right at every turn, then in some cases getting all huffy at people who don't see it their way, and labeling any positive comments on Drew as a "Lovefest."

I can respect any poster who says it's too early to tell whether Drew is over his injury problems, and that they'll be concerned until he plays a full season without injuring them again. However some posters go completely overboard and ignore the fact that he had a reconstruction done along with a very slow, deliberate rehab in order to fix, not mask, the very problem for which they criticize him. They also ignore the fact that he recently came back from a bone bruise after one game and played effectively with no meniscus or ACL problems this time. They also filter out the fact that Drew was ready to play the next game after the bone bruise he sustained and it was the Laker staff insisting he sit out that game. They ignore facts such as this and focus on this idea that "If Drew so much as sneezes he'll damage his knees" or insist that Drew had a lack of dedication factoring in to any game he missed.

So go ahead and leave the +/- in. I'm curious if anyone actually tries to cite it.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:40 am    Post subject:

vanexelent - I see you posted (didn't see it before my post above)....

... So based on your numbers... (I'm leaving out the dubious +/- which doesn't really fit in either "offense" or "defense") we have the following:

DEFENSE:
HOWARD #1 1.5
BYNUM #1 1.5

OFFENSE:
HOWARD #6 4.75
BYNUM #9 7.5

Amare #1 on offense of course... P Gasol, tied for #2, btw....


Taking the rankings for both we have (I'm not going to rank by player):

Howard has a 3.2 ranking (both offense and defense)
Bynum has a 4.5 ranking (both offense and defense)

Considering Bynum is TWO YEARS YOUNGER and will be CLEARLY IMPROVING HIS OFFENSE over that time... one can make the argument that Drew may very well be AT DWIGHT'S level in another couple of years... Do you agree this is possible?
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Last edited by LA_Lakers_Rule on Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:48 am; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:42 am    Post subject:

So, when you look at both sides of the ball, ranking all Centers, the numbers are thus:

#1. Howard - 2.4
#2. Bynum - 5.2
#2. Duncan - 5.2
#3. Pau Gasol - 5.3
#4. Horford - 7
#5. Marc Gasol - 7.2
#6. Jefferson - 7.4
#7. Stoudamire - 7.5
#7. Gortat - 7.5
#8. Nene - 7.7
#9. Okafor - 8.3
#10. Chandler - 8.8
#11. Brooke Lopez - 9.6
#12. Hibbert - 10
#13. Noah - 10.6
#14. Monroe - 12.2
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:49 am    Post subject:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:
vanexelent - I see you posted (didn't see it before my post above)....

... So based on your numbers... (I'm leaving out the dubious +/- which doesn't really fit in either "offense" or "defense") we have the following:

DEFENSE:
HOWARD #1 1.5
BYNUM #1 1.5

OFFENSE:
HOWARD #6 4.75
BYNUM #9 7.5

Amare #1 on offense of course... P Gasol, tied for #2, btw....


Taking the rankings for both we have (I'm not going to rank by player):

Howard has a 3.2 ranking (both offense and defense)
Bynum has a 5.0 ranking (both offense and defense)

Considering Bynum is TWO YEARS YOUNGER and will be CLEARLY IMPROVING HIS OFFENSE over that time... one can make the argument that Drew may very well be AT DWIGHT'S level in another couple of years... Do you agree this is possible?


Of course you yourself used the +/- Points Allowed on the very first post of this thread. Why now does it not apply?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:52 am    Post subject:

So the stats show that we basically have two of the top 4 Centers in the league. Also, shows that Tim Duncan, at age 34, is still one of the top 3 Centers in the game.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:43 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:
vanexelent - I see you posted (didn't see it before my post above)....

... So based on your numbers... (I'm leaving out the dubious +/- which doesn't really fit in either "offense" or "defense") we have the following:

DEFENSE:
HOWARD #1 1.5
BYNUM #1 1.5

OFFENSE:
HOWARD #6 4.75
BYNUM #9 7.5

Amare #1 on offense of course... P Gasol, tied for #2, btw....


Taking the rankings for both we have (I'm not going to rank by player):

Howard has a 3.2 ranking (both offense and defense)
Bynum has a 4.5 ranking (both offense and defense)

Considering Bynum is TWO YEARS YOUNGER and will be CLEARLY IMPROVING HIS OFFENSE over that time... one can make the argument that Drew may very well be AT DWIGHT'S level in another couple of years... Do you agree this is possible?


Of course you yourself used the +/- Points Allowed on the very first post of this thread. Why now does it not apply?


Actually they were NOT my stats... if you notice I was taking stats that J.C. Smith posted...

.... and secondly J.C. Smith's stats were not "Net +/-" that you used which involves "offense" (thus HIGHER the number the better) but was instead "Points against scoring" for the team while the player was on the court which involved a stat that would be LOWER the number the better...

Your "Net +/-" stat:
Quote:
Net +/- On Court/Off Court:
#1. Howard
#2. Pau Gasol
#3. Duncan
#4. Chandler
#5. Nene
#6. Okafor
#7. Horford
#8. Gortat
#9. Marc Gasol
#10. Stoudamire
#11. Hibbert
#12. Monroe
#13. Bynum
#14. Lopez
#14. Jefferson
#15. Noah


J.C. Smith's "Team Points Allowed +/-" (lower the number the better)
Teams +/- Points Allowed When they are on the court (LOWER is better)
:
Quote:

Teams +/- Points Allowed When they are on the court: (Lower is better)

# 1 Chandler: -6.1
# 2 Bynum: -4.9
# 3 Duncan: -4.9
# 4 Horford: -0.6
# 5 Nene: -0.5
# 6 Noah: +6.5
# 7 Lopez: +2.7
# 8 Howard: +4.8
# 9 Jefferson: +10.7


As you can see there is a demonstrable difference in the rankings, pretty much a direct opposite result....

... that said, I'd say leaving both off would be better but since that was what J.C. Smith had posted and the topic was after all about "defense" I included this as posted... I'm perfectly willing to leave either BOTH out or alternatively INCLUDE both as opposed to your just using "offense" and/or my using just "defense" since you are now combining both "offense" and "defense" (which is NOT what I was doing at the time, as you know)...

Btw, Do you agree that the two year younger Drew might possibly improve his offense over the next two years and end up becoming just as proficient on offense as Drew is now on defense and also become equally proficient in offense in two years as Dwight is now at his current age on offense (as you know it is typically easier to improve on "offense" than "defense" for most players)?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:57 pm    Post subject:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:
vanexelent - I see you posted (didn't see it before my post above)....

... So based on your numbers... (I'm leaving out the dubious +/- which doesn't really fit in either "offense" or "defense") we have the following:

DEFENSE:
HOWARD #1 1.5
BYNUM #1 1.5

OFFENSE:
HOWARD #6 4.75
BYNUM #9 7.5

Amare #1 on offense of course... P Gasol, tied for #2, btw....


Taking the rankings for both we have (I'm not going to rank by player):

Howard has a 3.2 ranking (both offense and defense)
Bynum has a 4.5 ranking (both offense and defense)

Considering Bynum is TWO YEARS YOUNGER and will be CLEARLY IMPROVING HIS OFFENSE over that time... one can make the argument that Drew may very well be AT DWIGHT'S level in another couple of years... Do you agree this is possible?


Of course you yourself used the +/- Points Allowed on the very first post of this thread. Why now does it not apply?


Actually they were NOT my stats... if you notice I was taking stats that J.C. Smith posted...

.... and secondly J.C. Smith's stats were not "Net +/-" that you used which involves "offense" (thus HIGHER the number the better) but was instead "Points against scoring" for the team while the player was on the court which involved a stat that would be LOWER the number the better...

Your "Net +/-" stat:
Quote:
Net +/- On Court/Off Court:
#1. Howard
#2. Pau Gasol
#3. Duncan
#4. Chandler
#5. Nene
#6. Okafor
#7. Horford
#8. Gortat
#9. Marc Gasol
#10. Stoudamire
#11. Hibbert
#12. Monroe
#13. Bynum
#14. Lopez
#14. Jefferson
#15. Noah


J.C. Smith's "Team Points Allowed +/-" (lower the number the better)
Teams +/- Points Allowed When they are on the court (LOWER is better)
:
Quote:

Teams +/- Points Allowed When they are on the court: (Lower is better)

# 1 Chandler: -6.1
# 2 Bynum: -4.9
# 3 Duncan: -4.9
# 4 Horford: -0.6
# 5 Nene: -0.5
# 6 Noah: +6.5
# 7 Lopez: +2.7
# 8 Howard: +4.8
# 9 Jefferson: +10.7


As you can see there is a demonstrable difference in the rankings, pretty much a direct opposite result....

... that said, I'd say leaving both off would be better but since that was what J.C. Smith had posted and the topic was after all about "defense" I included this as posted... I'm perfectly willing to leave either BOTH out or alternatively INCLUDE both as opposed to your just using "offense" and/or my using just "defense" since you are now combining both "offense" and "defense" (which is NOT what I was doing at the time, as you know)...

Btw, Do you agree that the two year younger Drew might possibly improve his offense over the next two years and end up becoming just as proficient on offense as Drew is now on defense and also become equally proficient in two years as Dwight is now at his current age on offense?


I know the orginial stats, provided by J.C., were all defensive. And a few pages into the thread, (13 or 15ish), I brought out the offensive numbers, since J.C.'s original stats were prefaced by him stating "the game is two ways"....

Since the +/- Points Allowed was used on the defensive side, I thought it only fair that +/- Points Scored be used on the offensive side. And since the NET +/- POINTS reflects exactly those two stats, I thought it perfectly fits into the "TWO WAYS" argument.

I does seem that you're trying to remove it now because Bynum ranks rather low among his peers. Regarless, his stats show he's still #2 overall, however a pretty good distance behind Howard and is equal to a 34-year old Tim Duncan and his own teammate Pau Gasol. The rest of the field is left behind after those four.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:12 pm    Post subject:

^ I was assuming your "Net +/-" pretty much had to be for "offense" in as much as there is such a striking difference compared to the "defensive" +/-

... You are saying that it is "both" then I'm at a loss why there would be such a significant difference as you posted...

... can you provide the link or the data that shows your "Net +/-" is BOTH "offense" and "defense"... as I said, it would seem to me that your just posting the "+/-" one would typically see in the "box scores" which only involves "SCORING" (not both combined)....
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:28 pm    Post subject:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:
^ I was assuming your "Net +/-" pretty much had to be for "offense" in as much as there is such a striking difference compared to the "defensive" +/-

... You are saying that it is "both" then I'm at a loss why there would be such a significant difference as you posted...

... can you provide the link or the data that shows your "Net +/-" is BOTH "offense" and "defense"... as I said, it would seem to me that your just posting the "+/-" one would typically see in the "box scores" which only involves "SCORING" (not both combined)....


http://www.82games.com/1011/10LAL16.HTM

Using the original stat you posted:

Quote:
Teams +/- Points Allowed When they are on the court: (Lower is better)


All I did was incorporate the offensive counterparts to the defensive stats you posted. If "Teams +/- Points Allowed When they are on the court" is used for defense, Points Scored should be used for offense. You disagree?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:53 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Since the +/- Points Allowed was used on the defensive side, I thought it only fair that +/- Points Scored be used on the offensive side.


Considering that Howard is a #1 option on his team and Bynum is #3, his offensive production #'s are naturally going to look more impressive. The question becomes, "If Howard was on the Lakers, would he be the #1 option?". The most likely position Howard takes on the food chain if he was on this team would be #3 right behind Pau and Kobe. I don't think Howard is quite as far ahead of Bynum as some people are trying to make him out to be for this very reason. The only real clear advantage Howard has ahead of Bynum is in the health department.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:05 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Considering that Howard is a #1 option on his team and Bynum is #3,

How would that explain why Tyson Chandler, Horford, Gortat etc are ahead of Bynum in the net rating?

I'm not saying those guys are better players, but that stat line van posted just shows why the Lakers may be looking to trade one of the big centers. Bynum is better with Odom and Gasol is better with Odom as well. All the numbers I saw on 82 games showed me as much. Although my eyes watching the games has given me hope many times. They play well together in situations where they match up with bigger slower teams. Unfortunately most of the NBA is heading towards perimeter oriented quicker bigs at PF and elite speed at PG. This is where the mismatches happen for our starters and why Bynum's NET per on/off may not be as strong as his talent should indicate.
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revgen
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:11 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
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Considering that Howard is a #1 option on his team and Bynum is #3,

How would that explain why Tyson Chandler, Horford, Gortat etc are ahead of Bynum in the net rating?

I'm not saying those guys are better players, but that stat line van posted just shows why the Lakers may be looking to trade one of the big centers. Bynum is better with Odom and Gasol is better with Odom as well. All the numbers I saw on 82 games showed me as much. Although my eyes watching the games has given me hope many times. They play well together in situations where they match up with bigger slower teams. Unfortunately most of the NBA is heading towards perimeter oriented quicker bigs at PF and elite speed at PG. This is where the mismatches happen for our starters and why Bynum's NET per on/off may not be as strong as his talent should indicate.


Quiz question.

What do Tyson/Marion have that Pau/Bynum don't have?

Hint - Dwight/Bass have it too.
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Fallout
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:17 pm    Post subject:

revgen wrote:
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Since the +/- Points Allowed was used on the defensive side, I thought it only fair that +/- Points Scored be used on the offensive side.


Considering that Howard is a #1 option on his team and Bynum is #3, his offensive production #'s are naturally going to look more impressive. The question becomes, "If Howard was on the Lakers, would he be the #1 option?". The most likely position Howard takes on the food chain if he was on this team would be #3 right behind Pau and Kobe. I don't think Howard is quite as far ahead of Bynum as some people are trying to make him out to be for this very reason. The only real clear advantage Howard has ahead of Bynum is in the health department.


Seriously you people think he'll be #3 option?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:37 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
All I did was incorporate the offensive counterparts to the defensive stats you posted. If "Teams +/- Points Allowed When they are on the court" is used for defense, Points Scored should be used for offense. You disagree?


I'm not sure what your using to combine your stats...

... If we have the following ranking on DEFENSE:

Drew #2
Dwight #8

... and the following ranking for "combined" +/- based on your numbers:

Dwight #1
Drew #13

... considering the above ranking you have posted has combined the "offense" counterpart with the "defensive" ranking then just the "offensive" ranking difference between Dwight and Drew would have to be so unbelievably extreme that it would be beyond credulity...

Your saying that BOTH "OFFENSE" AND "DEFENSE" has Drew 13 positions below Dwight... taking into consideration that Drew is six position ahead of Dwight for "defense" then Drew would have to be ranked 19 positions below Dwight on "offense" to have the combined "offense" and "defense" end up with Drew 13 positions below Dwight...

... Maybe I'm confusing myself, but let me try and explain it this way....

Taking the "defensive ranking":
Drew #2
Dwight #8

To end up with a combined (offense/defense) ranking of:
Dwight #1
Drew #13

.... and say Dwight is #1 for "offense" then Drew would have to be ranked #19 to end up with the "combined" ranking you end up with considering Drew was ranked 6 above Dwight for "defense"....

... Besides that you had Dwight #1 "COMBINED" both "offense/defense" yet Dwight as you know he is ranked #8 for "defense" when I posted my thread...

... I don't see how Dwight could end up #1 "combined" if he ranked #8 on "defense", he would have to be ranked 8 positions above #1 to average out to #1 for "combined" offense/defense...

... So using the best we can do ranking Dwight #1 against other Centers for "offense" considering he was ranked #8 for "defense" we would have the following:

Dwight 1+8 = 4.5 combined or to put it another way combined he would rank round 4th to 5th (average between 1 and 8)

... on the other hand for Drew to end up #13 combined and considering he was ranked #2 on defense you'd have the following:

Drew 2+24 = 13 combined --- your #13 ranking "combined" (average between 2 for "defense" and 24 for "offense")

I don't see how there are 24 Centers in the league that are better than Drew on "offense", do you?

... So I am frankly at a loss where you come up with the "combined" ranking for +/- for BOTH "offense" and "defense"....
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Last edited by LA_Lakers_Rule on Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:43 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:39 pm    Post subject:

Dwight being the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd option is irrelevant. Why? Because his game is not anchored on the offensive side of the floor. It's his defense that drives everything. And he's the clear cut man on that front. For those who are staunch believers in +/-, D12 is CLEARLY the stabilizing force on both ends amongst big men in the NBA. But make no mistake about it. he dominates the game defensively and everything else he does grows out of that. And I think his durability has a lot to do with that. He's not constantly having to work his way back from something.

Borrowing a football phrase, 'Every down backs' are rare in this league. Guys that the team can ride night in a night out without having to worry about them breaking down or missing extended periods of time due to injury don't come along every day. D12 is an every down back. Drew.... certainly not to this point, but I suppose it's possible he could still become that guy.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:46 pm    Post subject:

1. Dwight Howard

(largest gap ever)

Rest don't matter.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:49 pm    Post subject:

Fallout wrote:
revgen wrote:
Quote:
Since the +/- Points Allowed was used on the defensive side, I thought it only fair that +/- Points Scored be used on the offensive side.


Considering that Howard is a #1 option on his team and Bynum is #3, his offensive production #'s are naturally going to look more impressive. The question becomes, "If Howard was on the Lakers, would he be the #1 option?". The most likely position Howard takes on the food chain if he was on this team would be #3 right behind Pau and Kobe. I don't think Howard is quite as far ahead of Bynum as some people are trying to make him out to be for this very reason. The only real clear advantage Howard has ahead of Bynum is in the health department.


Seriously you people think he'll be #3 option?


Well let's put it this way.... clearly Kobe will be #1.... can we agree on that?

... Now if Gasol becomes #3 option behind Dwight then the Lakers are not getting that much out of Gasol considering that it is his "offense" that makes him the player he is... certainly it is not so much Gasol's defense that separates Pau from other players... can we agree on that?

... So if you get my point, Gasol's "strength" as a player is not being utilized appropriately thus Gasol becomes more expensive salary wise than before thus not much of a "bargain" at all serving the team as a #3 option...

... on the other hand, Dwight is best at "defense" so it would seem to me that the proper order to get the most value out of all three of the top Laker players would be to have Kobe #1 option, Gasol #2 option and Dwight #3 option on "OFFENSE"....
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:54 pm    Post subject:

Fallout wrote:
revgen wrote:
Quote:
Since the +/- Points Allowed was used on the defensive side, I thought it only fair that +/- Points Scored be used on the offensive side.


Considering that Howard is a #1 option on his team and Bynum is #3, his offensive production #'s are naturally going to look more impressive. The question becomes, "If Howard was on the Lakers, would he be the #1 option?". The most likely position Howard takes on the food chain if he was on this team would be #3 right behind Pau and Kobe. I don't think Howard is quite as far ahead of Bynum as some people are trying to make him out to be for this very reason. The only real clear advantage Howard has ahead of Bynum is in the health department.


Seriously you people think he'll be #3 option?


Yes.

Look at Pau's ast/to ratio. Look at Dwight's ast/to ratio.

Look at Pau's offensive skillset. Look at Dwight's offensive skillset.

If you really think Dwight is going to be ahead of Pau in the food chain, you're dreaming.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:13 pm    Post subject:

Howard was a #3 option last season and his numbers were still more impressive than Bynum's.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:27 pm    Post subject:

please watch this video people, skip to the 6:20 mark and you'll see bynum's dominance/capabilities when he's really playing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cremkZv8pPk
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