Joined: 30 Nov 2006 Posts: 33474 Location: Long Beach, California
Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:26 pm Post subject:
Sansa being the murderer would be the most surprising choice in my mind. She would go from meek little girl to bad ass in one stroke. _________________ LakersGround's Terms of Service
Joined: 30 Nov 2006 Posts: 33474 Location: Long Beach, California
Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:19 pm Post subject:
DaMuleRules wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Sansa being the murderer would be the most surprising choice in my mind. She would go from meek little girl to bad ass in one stroke.
It would also be horrible and lazy writing.
Really, you think so? I suppose you are right if it was simply she killed him out of revenge and ran off. However, not lazy writing if there was some backstory to it and some planning that involved more moving parts, all of which wasn't revealed until after the fact.
I think you could pick anyone as the culprit... what makes it interesting is the reasons why and how it happened, not as much the identity of who it was. _________________ LakersGround's Terms of Service
Another reason I think Cersei may be the culprit is when she said not to give the leftovers to the poor. She can't stand the fact that she will no longer have power. She's definitely power hungry and heartless enough to do it.
Joined: 30 Nov 2006 Posts: 33474 Location: Long Beach, California
Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:27 pm Post subject:
loslakersss wrote:
Another reason I think Cersei may be the culprit is when she said not to give the leftovers to the poor. She can't stand the fact that she will no longer have power. She's definitely power hungry and heartless enough to do it.
It's like the movie Clue... who did it? What's great is that Joffrey was so universally despised, that just about any one could have done it because almost everyone had their own reasons to want him gone. Poisoning him was an obvious choice in my mind, but also a great choice for all the possibilities which it opened up. _________________ LakersGround's Terms of Service
Again the vid shows who did it........Olenna Tyrell walks over to Sansa and say that she looks exquisite but the wind had been at you though.....Then she fiddles with Sansa's hair and then she grabs at the necklace and cups the ruby.......Then when she walks back to her seat she puts the ruby in the kings wine holder at the 3:00 minute mark...have to have your speakers on high and you hear the ruby hit inside the holder when she walks by it. very subtle
Now the directors doing misdirection to confuse you....First with the pie the King hits with his sword and you see two dead birds in it that he killed
Then you get all these possible suspects when in fact the subtle scene shows who did it
The scene between Olenna Tyrell and Sansa starts at 2:12
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52657 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:56 pm Post subject:
LakerSanity wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Sansa being the murderer would be the most surprising choice in my mind. She would go from meek little girl to bad ass in one stroke.
It would also be horrible and lazy writing.
Really, you think so? I suppose you are right if it was simply she killed him out of revenge and ran off. However, not lazy writing if there was some backstory to it and some planning that involved more moving parts, all of which wasn't revealed until after the fact.
That's the thing. There has been no backstory to support that scenario. That's why it would be lousy writing. Sansa's character is pretty clearly established. She's a girl who has spent her life looking to marriage as a means to an end. Marry and be a Queen. While she is bitter that Joffrey beheaded her father, her contempt for that act has only gone so far. She's clearly not a plotter. She's much more comfortable not making waves. Murderous revenge has never even remotely established as a possible character trait. And that's why I say it would be bad writing. Because everything in this show has been carefully constructed. Suddenly finding out Sansa has a secret plan that hasn't been established is not the style of the show.
Contrast Sansa as to how Arya has evolved. From the moment you met Arya you are aware that she is feisty and confident. She's loyal to a fault. She's keenly aware of the difference between ally and enemy. Sansa has to be guided through that world. Arya has been shown throughout to have an out going and determined approach to the world. Which is why it totally made sense when she drove Needle through Podrick's throat. We've been seeing that potential in her build for 3 seasons now. On the other hand, we've seen nothing that would indicate Sansa is capable of, or connected enough, to pull off a brilliant murder plot of Joffrey.
I think you could pick anyone as the culprit... what makes it interesting is the reasons why and how it happened, not as much the identity of who it was.[/quote]
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52657 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:04 pm Post subject:
loslakersss wrote:
Another reason I think Cersei may be the culprit is when she said not to give the leftovers to the poor. She can't stand the fact that she will no longer have power. She's definitely power hungry and heartless enough to do it.
I think the point of that scene about the leftovers was not that she was trying to maintain her power, but that she clearly knew that her power had not disappeared simply because Joffrey was now married. She is establishing herself quite solidly and confidently, even amongst the Lannisters themselves. She has much more to gain from Joffrey being alive than she does from him being dead. His death is one dead link to the power of Kingdom. Her son was worth much more to her alive than dead. Her connection to the throne only gets diluted via Joffrey's death.
Joined: 30 Nov 2006 Posts: 33474 Location: Long Beach, California
Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:11 pm Post subject:
Sansa could have been manipulated to do so by Margery and/or Olenna. I could see Sansa being a pawn, not the conspirator... a promise from the Tyrells to help her escape the slavery she has been thrown into if she helped facilitate their plot. _________________ LakersGround's Terms of Service
Joined: 27 Jul 2004 Posts: 18222 Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:28 pm Post subject:
chazz wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XU7v3_nKYw
Again the vid shows who did it........Olenna Tyrell walks over to Sansa and say that she looks exquisite but the wind had been at you though.....Then she fiddles with Sansa's hair and then she grabs at the necklace and cups the ruby.......Then when she walks back to her seat she puts the ruby in the kings wine holder at the 3:00 minute mark...have to have your speakers on high and you hear the ruby hit inside the holder when she walks by it. very subtle
Now the directors doing misdirection to confuse you....First with the pie the King hits with his sword and you see two dead birds in it that he killed
Then you get all these possible suspects when in fact the subtle scene shows who did it
The scene between Olenna Tyrell and Sansa starts at 2:12
Keep watching right before her conversation with Sansa (2:05) and after the "clink" sound you think is proof positive (3:06). In both shots of Joffrey you see the goblet is right in front of him in plain view of both him and the Kingsguard standing behind him. _________________ "Suck it up. Don't be a baby. Do your job." - Kobe Bryant
Nah, way too obvious considering that they spent a few scenes with him expressing an intent for some kind of revenge. Pretty clearly a red herring.
Besides, Obyrin would likely be looking for a much more personal and graphic style of revenge that is out in the open rather than hide behind a secret poisoning.
you are most likely right... it's been mentioned in the series that poison is a woman's weapon... women, cravens and eunuchs... so probably one from the three groups killed Joffrey. _________________ "Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it."
Again the vid shows who did it........Olenna Tyrell walks over to Sansa and say that she looks exquisite but the wind had been at you though.....Then she fiddles with Sansa's hair and then she grabs at the necklace and cups the ruby.......Then when she walks back to her seat she puts the ruby in the kings wine holder at the 3:00 minute mark...have to have your speakers on high and you hear the ruby hit inside the holder when she walks by it. very subtle
Now the directors doing misdirection to confuse you....First with the pie the King hits with his sword and you see two dead birds in it that he killed
Then you get all these possible suspects when in fact the subtle scene shows who did it
The scene between Olenna Tyrell and Sansa starts at 2:12
didn't this scene happen way before Joffrey's death?
in between this and his death,
-Joffrey consumed wine
-poured some on Tyrion
-dropped the goblet on purpose
-Tyrion picks up the goblet, pours more wine on the goblet
-Joffrey gulps some more
-Joffrey eats pigeon pie, drinks wine and dies. _________________ "Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it."
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52657 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:41 pm Post subject:
LakerSanity wrote:
Sansa could have been manipulated to do so by Margery and/or Olenna. I could see Sansa being a pawn, not the conspirator... a promise from the Tyrells to help her escape the slavery she has been thrown into if she helped facilitate their plot.
I think you are missing my point. I'm not saying that isn't a reasonable scenario as general storytelling. What I am saying is that based on the quality and detail of the writing of this show, the scenario of Sansa suddenly becoming a conspirator to murder without any prior establishment of that storyline would be totally out line with the way this show has been crafted. Nothing in this show just happens out of nowhere. There are certainly things that catch us by surprise, but if you look back at events, you can see the things that lead up to them. If Sansa was being manipulated into participating in a conspiracy to kill Joffrey, we'd have seen hints of that. What we have seen is hints that she is actually being exploited as an uninvolved party, possibly being set up, via the necklace from Dantos.
Sansa is may be inactively involved in Joffrey's death. Dantos showing up to escort her out shows that possibility. But there's been nothing to demonstrate she is an active conspirator, manipulated or not. If she was in on the plot, we'd have seen that aspect arise in some fashion, but we haven't seen that. Not even subtly. In fact, she's pretty much the opposite of a conspirator. She's too scared by the realization that she isn't even sure who to trust to be able to conspire on anything. Sansa the opposite of her sister. Sansa is off on her roller coaster ride and she's holding on for dear life. Arya is trying to find the way she wants to go, and is doing so aggressively and proactively. She's not looking for security and guidance like Sansa.
Joined: 30 Nov 2006 Posts: 33474 Location: Long Beach, California
Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:17 pm Post subject:
I get what you are saying. However, there are exceptions to your rule (i.e. things coming out of nowhere)... the red wedding being an example IMO. _________________ LakersGround's Terms of Service
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:22 pm Post subject:
My guess is still Olenna in league with Littlefinger and/or Shae. They made a point of telling us that Shae was supposedly on a ship (without showing us), and a point of Littlefinger being absent at the wedding. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52657 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:10 am Post subject:
LakerSanity wrote:
I get what you are saying. However, there are exceptions to your rule (i.e. things coming out of nowhere)... the red wedding being an example IMO.
The Red Wedding was shocking and unexpected, but it didn't just arrive out of nowhere without any kind of setup. We saw much that established the potential for it. Walder Frey's seething bitterness was discussed, and his eccentricities were mentioned. The Stark were quiet wary of him and almost reluctantly trusting of him. While the Red Wedding wasn't clearly foreshadowed, the background for it's potential was established. When you see it start to unfold, it is shocking for sure, but it wasn't something that came without a foundation.
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52657 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:14 am Post subject:
24 wrote:
My guess is still Olenna in league with Littlefinger and/or Shae. They made a point of telling us that Shae was supposedly on a ship (without showing us), and a point of Littlefinger being absent at the wedding.
I can see Littlefinger's fingers possibly beinginvolved, but I don't know that Shae would do that to Tyrion, no matter how brokenhearted and betrayed she may feel. I could see her going after Tyrion herself in a fit of passionate rage, but plotting his death? Not so sure.
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:17 am Post subject:
DaMuleRules wrote:
24 wrote:
My guess is still Olenna in league with Littlefinger and/or Shae. They made a point of telling us that Shae was supposedly on a ship (without showing us), and a point of Littlefinger being absent at the wedding.
I can see Littlefinger's fingers possibly beinginvolved, but I don't know that Shae would do that to Tyrion, no matter how brokenhearted and betrayed she may feel. I could see her going after Tyrion herself in a fit of passionate rage, but plotting his death? Not so sure.
The only reason Tyrion is a suspect is because Joffrey had him acting as cup bearer, something no one could have predicted in their plan, and because Joffrey appears to point at him. None of those would impact Shae wanting to kill Joffrey. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:20 am Post subject:
Oddly enough, my first connection to Shae on this WAS because of Tyrion, and the "hell hath no fury" idea, but then I realized there was no way for her to have predicted Tyrion being ripe for blame in the way it turned out. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52657 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:26 am Post subject:
24 wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
24 wrote:
My guess is still Olenna in league with Littlefinger and/or Shae. They made a point of telling us that Shae was supposedly on a ship (without showing us), and a point of Littlefinger being absent at the wedding.
I can see Littlefinger's fingers possibly beinginvolved, but I don't know that Shae would do that to Tyrion, no matter how brokenhearted and betrayed she may feel. I could see her going after Tyrion herself in a fit of passionate rage, but plotting his death? Not so sure.
The only reason Tyrion is a suspect is because Joffrey had him acting as cup bearer, something no one could have predicted in their plan, and because Joffrey appears to point at him. None of those would impact Shae wanting to kill Joffrey.
I think Shae's wrath would be more likely pointed in the direction of Cersi or Tywin.
Joined: 27 Jul 2004 Posts: 18222 Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:12 pm Post subject:
24 wrote:
My guess is still Olenna in league with Littlefinger and/or Shae. They made a point of telling us that Shae was supposedly on a ship (without showing us), and a point of Littlefinger being absent at the wedding.
I don't see Littlefinger being involved in this. Under Joffrey's rule, he's become Lord of Harrenhall and Lord of the Vale. While he does desire to be King himself, Joffrey's death does nothing to move him closer to the throne. Since he's presumably married to Lysa Arryn now, so he couldn't even marry into it.
Littlefinger's best opportunity would have been if he could have convinced Ned to seize the throne after Robert died, but Ned's honor messed up that plan. _________________ "Suck it up. Don't be a baby. Do your job." - Kobe Bryant
My guess is still Olenna in league with Littlefinger and/or Shae. They made a point of telling us that Shae was supposedly on a ship (without showing us), and a point of Littlefinger being absent at the wedding.
I'm pretty sure Littlefinger is absent because he's been sent off to the Vale to be lord. _________________ Kobe
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