If the 2005 NBA Draft Were Done Over, Who Goes #1?
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Who Is YOUR #1 Pick
Bynum
11%
 11%  [ 13 ]
CP3
45%
 45%  [ 51 ]
D-Will
42%
 42%  [ 48 ]
Bogut
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Other
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 112

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Texas_Pete
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:32 am    Post subject:

eureca wrote:
Way to work everything to fit the way you want. You bash Melo not winning many games with Knicks then praise Jefferson for doing what he has done for his career getting stats on a losing team. You praise him for getting stats to try to lower Deron but look at the Jazz 4-7 since the trade the 4 wins against the Pacers, Raptors, Kings and Sixers. Nets havent made much noise? They went 5-2 5 straight wins last one vs Celtics. And even with Deron the Nets still suck but that isnt his fault he was traded to one of the worse teams in the NBA.

I don't know what Melo has to do with this anyways. And no hes not just like CP3 and Deron. Melo is what he is a ball stopping scorer. Dont sleep on Deron and CP3 they make teams run and make everyone else better while also scoring. CP3 hasn't made much of a difference? Hes gotten a not great team 9 games over .500. Bynum is lucky hes playing on the most talented team in the NBA where he wasn't needed to be even 50% for his team to win back to back titles. If you want to say Bynum would or should be taken #1 fine but come on now with your arguments.

I'm not bashing Melo. The reason he was brought into the argument was because of the mega thread that had 98% of LG wanting to trade Bynum for him. I stated facts. Melo is a talented player but not a difference maker. Would I want him in LA? Sure but not at the expense of Bynum.

Deron is a player too. Didn't mean to imply that I was lowering his value. He's another player that I would love to see in P&G. Again, just not at the expense of Bynum.

I think many Laker fans sell Bynum short. Just how Deron can't be held liable for playing on a lousy team, Bynum can't be held liable for being the 3rd option (at best) on this championship team. I stand by my belief that if Bynum were a 1st option he would produce 20/10/3 and anchor the paint. This would change the way people look at him as a player but fortunately for us Laker fans we don't have to rely upon him to put up crazy numbers every night. Defense and rebounding is his focus right now. The impact that we are seeing as a result can't really be measured statistically. Maybe I'm in the minority, but there are only two players in the league I would trade Bynum for right now. One calls himself superman and the other is a douche bag.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:41 am    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
Those guys are consistent all-stars year after year. Bynum makes an impact in spurts, when he's not injured, when he feels like it. Bynum's been saying he understands his role now. Is that all? Did he just learn English? Did PJ speak in a different language before? I want A-Bomb to dominate too, but what I've seen in 6 years is an injury prone kid who probably likes Bentleys more than practices.

Start this thread again after they've all played 10 years in the league. Then you may have an argument.

Experience and health are the two factors that kept Bynum from putting up the numbers deserving of getting him into the AS game. He has changed his goal of putting up numbers and focused on defense and rebounding. We're 10-1 since the AS break because of him finally doing what PJ has been imploring him to do for years. That also speaks to him finally maturing. He didn't just "feel like" doing these things all of a sudden. And he is not injury prone. He has suffered two freak injuries at the hands of his teammates. This has set his development back as a player.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:42 am    Post subject:

Until Bynum plays a full season without injuries, or unless he goes on beasting and makes a significant impact helping the Lakers win a championship, I'm not convince that he's the guy to build a franchise around.

But let's say Bynum plays well and has a good career, lets say like a Patrick Ewing. I think the draft position still depends on the teams need. If a team needs immediate impact players, D-Will and CP3 are the clear choices, I still say CP3 #1 and D-Will #2. But if you are willing to groom and develop a big men for several years, then Bynum is a very good choice at #1.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:14 am    Post subject: Re: If the 2005 NBA Draft Were Done Over, Who Goes #1?

Texas_Pete wrote:
Many people would have still taken CP3 or D-Will over Bynum. Some would have taken Bogut over him as well. Call me a homer, but I wouldn't take anyone in the 2005 NBA Draft over Big Drew. The 9 teams that decided not to pick him made a Big mistake (pun intended).

What say you?


Putting aside what you expect of the future contribution, think for a moment about what each of these players has already contributed to their team over the last six years. CP3 and D-Will have made huge contributions. They go #1 and #2 in retrospect (in what order, I'm not sure.)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:01 am    Post subject:

Texas_Pete wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Bynum over Chris Paul and Deron Wlliams? Why? Two are proven superstars.

I say Deron Williams should probably have gone #1. His college stats don't look THAT impressive, though. Even Adam Morrison's look better, and look how that turned out.


Melo is a "superstar" just like CP3 and D-Will. He goes to the Knicks and they commence to go 6-6. Meanwhile His Nugget team is 8-2 since the trade.

Al Jefferson has gone on a tear since D-Will left. NJ has a few quality wins, but they haven't made much noise.

Nawlins started off like gang busters (8-0?). They are road kill if the playoffs began today (they play us). CP3 hasn't made much of a difference despite his PER.

I'm not trying to talk ish on either of those guys, but neither are making the impact that Big Drew is.


You're missing the point if you are actually making sweeping generalizations and broad judgements on the Knicks-nuggets trade after 12 games. Remember, the heat were 9-8 before they took off. You are always better off in the long run with 2-3 great players as opposed to 4-5 good players. That's just the inherent nature of basketball. You can only put 5 guys on the court at the same time, so, if 2 of them are top 10-15 players, you have a huge advantage over your opponent on most nights. Basketball is all about quality, not quantity.

Right now, Bynum is a good young center with a promising future, provided that he can actually stay healthy for an extended period of time. Deron Williams is a top-ten NBA player and probably the best point guard in the league. If we had a fantasy draft this afternoon and you didn't draft him over Bynum knowing everything we know now, you'd be verifiably insane.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:46 am    Post subject:

1. CP3/D-Will
2. D-Will/CP3
3. Drew

Sounds about right.
I don't have any problem with him not going #1.

MJ went 3.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:59 am    Post subject:

The thread didn't specify the draft and roster circumstances so I'd pick CP3 since he's the best overall talent. For the Lakers specifically, I'd still take D-Will as a better matching talent, and I'd still take CP3 over Bynum - and trade for some better fitting pieces.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:32 am    Post subject:

If Bynum came out of college today, I think he would be #1, good big men are hard to get. But coming out of high school Bynum was out of shape and wasn't all that impressive. He could easily been a bust, but lucky for us, he isn't. Look at Clippers and candyman, what a disaster.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:33 am    Post subject:

GasolBynumKobe wrote:
Deron and CP3 are interchangable at 1 and 2. Bynum would have been at 3.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:41 am    Post subject:

1.Williams
2.Paul
3.Bynum
4.Bogut (I think their injury histories cancel each other out)
5.Ellis
6.Lee
7.Felton
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:43 am    Post subject:

If you look at the current situation and re-order the draft

1. DW
2. Bynum
3. CP3

If Bynum plays at this level and stays healthy.....Next year...I will say

1. Bynum (by mile)
2. DW
3. CP3

Thumb rule - You draft quality Bigs (very rare) over any other player


Last edited by rak617 on Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:13 am    Post subject:

JTS1 wrote:
Texas_Pete wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Bynum over Chris Paul and Deron Wlliams? Why? Two are proven superstars.

I say Deron Williams should probably have gone #1. His college stats don't look THAT impressive, though. Even Adam Morrison's look better, and look how that turned out.


Melo is a "superstar" just like CP3 and D-Will. He goes to the Knicks and they commence to go 6-6. Meanwhile His Nugget team is 8-2 since the trade.

Al Jefferson has gone on a tear since D-Will left. NJ has a few quality wins, but they haven't made much noise.

Nawlins started off like gang busters (8-0?). They are road kill if the playoffs began today (they play us). CP3 hasn't made much of a difference despite his PER.

I'm not trying to talk ish on either of those guys, but neither are making the impact that Big Drew is.


the only problem w/drew was he was so RAW back then. he only had something like 30 games of organized ball under his belt. i didn't see the appeal in bogut though. he wasn't a one in my book.


If I'm not mistaken the poll is asking the question BASED ON WHAT WE KNOW NOW.... Not what we THOUGHT THEN...

.... If you think about it if this was NOT the case then what is the point of the question in the first place because the answer to the poll question would be the same as what happened in '05 if the question was only based on what was THOUGHT THEN because THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED...

Deductive logic would tell us a "do over" would presume based on current knowledge
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:21 am    Post subject:

Bogut is averaging 13 and 9 for his career, Bynum is averaging 10 and 7.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:17 am    Post subject:

I'm sure every GM knows that a big man is way more important than a PG. The only issue is that it's hard to know if a big man is going to be good or not, which is why guaranteed big men always go #1 or 2. So with that being said, of course Bynum would be #1.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:19 am    Post subject:

dsimone1027 wrote:
Bogut is averaging 13 and 9 for his career, Bynum is averaging 10 and 7.

Would you trade Bynum for Bogut?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:24 am    Post subject:

Knowing what I do now, I would go DWill, Bynum, Paul, and Bogut.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:30 am    Post subject:

Supa wrote:
Bynum would probably be number one overall. Bigs are always valued and most of the time overvalued in NBA. Even though CP3 and D-Will are superstars, they can't carry and have an impact on a team that Bynum potentially can. Look at him now, the Lakers would not trade him for either smalls the way he's playing.


BINGO!!!!

... This person GETS IT!!!!! ... It's nice to see a person can THINK OUT OF THE BOX... and understand the question and what it is getting at...

.... Everyone is answering the question based on THEIR OWN OPINION WHAT THEY WOULD DO...

The POLL QUESTION is asking people to put their GM HAT ON!!!! (I'm not sure some on this board are capable of this I didn't expect a lot of people on this board to get what the poll question was about really but I figured more would have than is the case)...

The point..... GM's WILL ALWAYS VALUE SIZE, especially size that Bynum has...

.... Think about all the bigs (often Centers) through the years that have gone much higher than one would expect?

Supa - IS EXACTLY RIGHT!!!... BIGS (especially Center) ARE OFTEN "OVERVALUED".... While I figured not that many would figure this out I would have thought more on this board would...

THINK PEOPLE.... Why was Sam Bowie picked over Michael Jordan.... Ans: SIZE... HE WAS A CENTER (with a lot of potential to be an impact player at that position) more than anything else...

Look at the draft THAT YEAR in '84.... Stockton (arguably a top-2 PG historically in the NBA) was drafted #16... and 13 of the 15 players picked ahead of Stockton WERE BIGS!!!

Look at EVERY draft... BIGS AND CENTERS TYPICALLY DOMINATE THE TOP PICKS!!!!

I'm going back to the '84 draft because of the huge mistake made picking Bowie (CENTER) over MJ....

84 DRAFT:
1 Akeem Olajuwon - BIG (CENTER)
2 Sam Bowie - BIG (CENTER)
3 Michael Jordan
4 Sam Perkins - BIG (can play Center)
5 Charles Barkley - BIG
6 Mel Turpin - BIG (CENTER)

A few more drafts going forward from there....

85 DRAFT:
1 Patrick Ewing - BIG (CENTER)
2 Wayman Tisdale - BIG (F/C)
3 Benoit Benjamin BIG (CENTER) - anybody remember him (some will)?
4 Xavier McDaniel (forward)
5 Jon Koncak - BIG (CENTER) - anybody remember him?
6 Joe Kleine - BIG (CENTER) - anybody remember him (some will)?

86 DRAFT:
1 Brad Daugherty - BIG (CENTER)
2 Len Bias
3 Chris Washburn - BIG (CENTER) - anybody remember him?
4 Chuck Person - (forward)
5 Kenny Walker - (forward)
6 William Bedford - BIG (CENTER) - anybody remember him?

I went back to when Michael Jordan was drafted because it was such a blatant example of how GM's place SUCH A PREMIUM ON BIGS and have very often OVERVALUED BIGS HISTORICALLY....

.... I'm NOT going to post every DRAFT YEAR, but you will probably find that THE TOP TWO PICKS ALMOST EVERY YEAR INCLUDED A BIG AND 80-90% OF THE TIME IT WAS A CENTER!!!!

... Just some more EXAMPLES to think about regarding HOW CENTERS ARE considered A PREMIUM by GM's...

Remember Shawn Bradley (Center) drafted #2, he was drafted ahead of Penny Hardaway...

Remember Michael Olowokandi a CENTER drafted #1 and Raef LaFrentz #3 another CENTER, BOTH drafted ahead of players like Antawn Jamison and Vince Carter to a large extent simply BECAUSE THEY WERE CENTERS

The 2001 draft had FOUR CENTERS at the TOP 4 SPOTS (Kwame Brown, Tyson Chandler, Pau Gasol, Eddy Curry)

Darko Milicic was picked ahead of Carmelo Anthony, Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade BECAUSE HE WAS A CENTER (notice Kaman was pick 6th that year thus 5 of the top 6 picks were bigs)

Don't forget Greg Oden was picked at #1 ahead of KEVIN DURANT!!! Why?... because he was a CENTER more than anything!!!!

I'll end with the very draft we are talking about which is probably one of the best examples of what I'm talking about here....

Andrew Bogut was picked #1 BECAUSE HE WAS A CENTER ahead of players like Marvin Williams (a BIG), Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Raymond Felton

... THE GREAT MAJORITY ON THIS BOARD ARE PICKING DWILL AND PAUL AHEAD OF BYNUM IN THIS '05 DRAFT...

.... NOTICE THAT TWO BIGS WENT AHEAD OF THESE TWO SMALLS!!! WHY BECAUSE BIGS ARE CONSIDERED PREMIUM BY ALL THE GM'S IN THE LEAGUE .... TWO BIGS WERE DRAFTED AHEAD OF THESE PLAYERS... CLEARLY GM'S WOULD HAVE PLACED A PREMIUM ON BYNUM KNOWING WHAT WE KNOW NOW...

Most of you guys FAILED here, IMHO.... BECAUSE YOUR NOT PUTTING ON YOUR GM HAT!!!!

.... From the perspective of how MOST GM's think... IT IS OBVIOUS THAT THROUGHOUT THE HISTORY OF THE DRAFT CENTERS ESPECIALLY BUT BIGS IN GENERAL ARE VALUED VERY HIGH AND THE OP IS EXACTLY RIGHT MANY TIMES HAVE BEEN OVERVALUED over the years....
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Last edited by LA_Lakers_Rule on Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:05 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:34 am    Post subject:

Laker_Behemoth wrote:
dsimone1027 wrote:
Bogut is averaging 13 and 9 for his career, Bynum is averaging 10 and 7.

Would you trade Bynum for Bogut?


Right now,

my list is

DWill
CP3
Bogut
Bynum

Bynum has a bullet by him and if he makes it through the remainder of the season, playoffs and starts next season healthy, he passes Bogut on my list.

But make no mistake about it - with Bogut (and assuming the Gasol trade), we'd be going for a 4-peat right now.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:38 am    Post subject:

dsimone1027 wrote:
Bogut is averaging 13 and 9 for his career, Bynum is averaging 10 and 7.


Thank god for points and rebound stats. They're all that matter!
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:39 am    Post subject:

I would have said CP3, but I get the distinct impression that he'll have a shorter career arc than Isiah.

Deron Williams
Bynum (high risk/high reward)
Bogut (before Bynum if it is a conservative GM)
CP3
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:45 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Knowing what I do now, I would go DWill, Bynum, Paul, and Bogut.


Now THAT is a reasonable ORDER, IMO....

... I'm not sure I would pick DWill over Bynum (have to think more about it) but clearly DWill would be the ONLY one I would consider picking ahead of Drew... Paul has injury issues himself and frankly more serious than Drew who's surgery was much less significant because it did not involve a total miniscusectomy like in Paul's case, so if people are voting on the basis of "health" issues they should be considering this even more...

... If Drew continues to improve the way he has been and stay healthy then it's hands down Bynum but at THIS time it's pretty close between those two... (I'd still probably have to go with SIZE but I can LIVE with that list).... In the end I'd have to go with SIZE and what that presence can mean in the key both defensively as well as offensive "efficiency"....
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:53 am    Post subject:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

A few more drafts going forward from there....
4 Xavier McDaniel - BIG


Small forward and actually ended up playing some shooting guard on Boston.

Quote:
7 Chris Mullin - BIG (CENTER)


Drafted as a shooting guard, played there and small forward his entire career.

Quote:
84 DRAFT:


I think you mean 86 draft.

Quote:
2 Len Bias - BIG


Celtics drafted him to play SG.

Quote:
4 Chuck Person - BIG
5 Kenny Walker - BIG


Both were small forwards.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:01 am    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
But make no mistake about it - with Bogut (and assuming the Gasol trade), we'd be going for a 4-peat right now.


Because he's immune from debilitating, season ending injuries that cause him to miss the playoffs? His elbow practically snapped off last year, he missed the postseason, and he's still suffering greatly from the aftermath of that.

2008-09: 36 games played (missed all of February, March, & April w/back injury)
2009-10: 69 games played (missed last two weeks of season & entire postseason)
2010-11: 54 games played (missed 12 games, and is shooting career lows in FG% and FT%...by a wide margin...due to the elbow)


At least be consistent.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:35 am    Post subject:

Chris Paul is no longer a superstar. He can't carry a team like he used to before his injury. Ask any Hornets fan...
1. Deron
2. Bynum
3. Ellis
4. Bogut
5. Paul
6. Granger
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:20 am    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

A few more drafts going forward from there....
4 Xavier McDaniel - BIG


Small forward and actually ended up playing some shooting guard on Boston.

Quote:
7 Chris Mullin - BIG (CENTER)


Drafted as a shooting guard, played there and small forward his entire career.

Quote:
84 DRAFT:


I think you mean 86 draft.

Quote:
2 Len Bias - BIG


Celtics drafted him to play SG.

Quote:
4 Chuck Person - BIG
5 Kenny Walker - BIG


Both were small forwards.


Thanks for catching all that... the "84 draft" was a typo in as much as I was going forward in the draft from when MJ was drafted... Chris Mullin I know is a SF, I was thinking Chris Mihm and wasn't paying attention (a lot of distractions with the stock market today), I'll take your word for it regarding Bias (I don't recall this) and yes Person and Walker were not really "bigs" but they were both 6-8 thus my point is they were not "smalls" but your correct regardless...

.... My point is do you believe that Centers are often "overvalued" by GM's in general?

Would you agree that Centers like Michael Olowokandi (#1), Kwame Brown (#1), Greg Oden (#1), Andrew Bogut (#1), Brad Daugherty (#1), Shawn Bradley (#2), Darko Milicic (#2), Benoit Benjamin (#3), Chris Washburn (#3), Jon Koncak (#5), Joe Kleine (#6), William Bedford (#6) to name a few were ALL OVERVALUED compared to SOME OF THE PLAYERS that were drafted BELOW THEM?

... The point is that GM's SIGNIFICANTLY VALUE CENTERS and in many cases OVERVALUE them to the extent that in MANY CASES a lot of much better players drop in the draft below these CENTERS that go MUCH HIGHER than they probably should... and for this reason I contend Bynum would have went VERY HIGH (probably top pick but certainly no worse than #3 knowing what we know now)....

Again, thanks for your diligence and catching the mistakes, I've correct them...

... now if you would just fix your signature...
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