Which is better for the team? Scorer Kobe or Playmaker Kobe

GameCock-MD · Star Player Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Posts: 4498

I was just wondering which Kobe would have yielded the most results and progress...

1. LBJ-type performance where he looks to dish more than to score...

Let the teammates learn to produce in the triangle and work more on teaching on the court than getting Kobe shots...this would have yielded a rougher start but a lower learning curve as players would have been free-er to make mistakes and learn from these mistakes early on...

It is much easier to teach a player how to work well in a system if you can guarantee him some latitude in the beginning and give him some room to shine in the offense...

2. AI-type performance that is just dominating shots and scoring with the team treated more as an extension of the star, not as teammates...

This approach gives the team a sense of pecking order, chain of command...this ensures that no role player oversteps his boundary but it is hard to get any of them to step up when they know they always walk the thin line...it cuts down on turnovers but it discourages creativity also...the ball will always find it's way to the best (read franchise) player in this approach, sometimes placing him in precarious situations...

Teaching takes backstage to order...learning is stunted to promote discipline...the triangle execution is exploited in certain areas and the scoring load is forced upon the shoulders of a few...the team ultimately becomes subservient to the whims of the coach and the featured scorer...

This approach ultimately relies on the team being able to put enough points so that Kobe's 30 ppg puts them over...

3. There is a 3rd option which I'm not a fan of...it's the Kobe that takes quarters and pretends to do one or the other, score or make plays...of course, that is not the best thing for the team...it's just presented here for discussion's sake...

I don't pretend to know the future or the intentions of Phil Jackson...I don't know what he did to get MJ and his Bulls ready to compete at an elite level...

I have my opinion of what Kobe's role should be...as Kobe goes, so does the Lakers...
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KobeButler · Franchise Player Joined: 14 Nov 2004 Posts: 10179

I want kobe to the playmaker for the frst 3 quarters. Then when we have a comfortable lead.. I want Kobe to finish it and be the scorer.
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Great One · Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:01 pm Post subject:

shnjb · Franchise Player Joined: 08 Oct 2002 Posts: 13320

Kobe the scorer is fine if he shoots near 50%.

If he's off though, definitely the playmaker.

bounty · Star Player Joined: 15 Aug 2005 Posts: 3946

i want him to be a shut down defender and high scorer. What that means? I dont know, but his defense is a far bigger problem right now. Its clear him putting up shots is a byproduct of our inept supporting cast on a consistent basis. Our youngens are learning regardless of Kobes shots so the worry of stunting their growth shouldnt be an issue
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LakersRGolden · Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:26 pm Post subject:

Option 4. All around Kobe like in the T-Wolves game.

Penetrate and dish, take any uncontested shot within 15 feet.

bambam · Star Player Joined: 03 Jul 2003 Posts: 9013

Play maker.

He usually does this after each and every all star break.
He comes out and dominates at every end of the court.. triple doubles left and right.

If kobe could play as a playmaker for the first 3 qtrs then take over in the 4th this team would make some serious strides.

pokoy · Moderator Joined: 12 Apr 2001 Posts: 14545

Remember when Shaq was hurt to begin the season about four years ago (the year we went something like 8-19 to start the year)? Kobe was playmaker Kobe with an even worse supporting cast, and still he started the season with a couple of triple doubles. I mean, look at this game log, and take note about the beginning of the year. I remember him getting hurt sometime later.

This year, his supporting cast should be better than the one he had back then w/o Shaq, if only for the facts that (1) we were the champs back then and always had a big target on our back when we played and (2) the team was built around Shaq. Granted, we had a lot of veterans; but I think our team now has a lot more potential growth than the team Kobe was "stuck" with before.

I'm all for putting Kobe back in playmaker position just to let the responsibility of getting everyone else some shots fall on his shoulders. He was pretty damn good at it.

sodapoppenski · Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:53 pm Post subject:

bambam · Star Player Joined: 03 Jul 2003 Posts: 9013

magic_bryant · Franchise Player Joined: 16 Oct 2002 Posts: 18179

GameCock-MD · Star Player Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Posts: 4498

I think that Phil is letting Kobe have his way to start...

Once his team STINKS, he will be a more receptive student...
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Build around team players, not ISO players.

sishirraj · Starting Rotation Joined: 10 Jun 2001 Posts: 323

Kobe is least of our problems, yet people keep creating threads over threads about his bad play in a few games after years of dazzling and consistent play.

I hope that Lakers coaching staff don't buy the wrong reasons for Lakers' current state and instead focus on real problems such as inconsistent agression level of Lamar, inconsistent play of Mihm, Cook, and Smush etc.

Heartburn · Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:32 pm Post subject:

bounty · Star Player Joined: 15 Aug 2005 Posts: 3946

GameCock-MD · Star Player Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Posts: 4498

TEEGUNN · Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:20 pm Post subject:

We need Kobe to score more efficiently. He probably won't do that until he starts moving the rock better. That also means that the other players must cut at the right time/place or be in the right spots. More crisp ball movement will do wonders for this team.

pokoy · Moderator Joined: 12 Apr 2001 Posts: 14545

magic_bryant · Franchise Player Joined: 16 Oct 2002 Posts: 18179

No, because when if we win the title again, it'll be with Kobe as the number one option. And he can't be the number one option AND be a facillitator too. He'd have to dominate the ball then.

Kobe should play as the scorer. Let the rest play their role. THEY'RE the ones who have to learn THEIR roles and spots on the floor. Having Kobe play as the initiator, WOULD be hiding ALL of this team's problems. Kobe shouldn't have to play initiator ever again. He's too good at scoring to waste his talents as we did for the first 8 years of his career. Passing out of the double teams should be all he has to worry about, as far as passing goes.
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Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass."

LakersRGolden · Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:30 pm Post subject:

Smel Counts · Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:32 pm Post subject:

Not to be a snot but how about "Kobe the winner"?, or "Kobe should do what the defense dictates"?
Lamar, Luke, Sasha, and Smush also are "playmakers" at least part of the time. Yet they, like Kobe, can score under the right circumstances.

I prefer to use the term "creator". Someone who creates for the team by creating mismatches/advantages/better opportunities for the team. This is done for a teammate or oneself, whichever is better for the team. He MUST shoot less and play more under control, which I think he's doing the last few games.

Magic Johnson was the ultimate creator. When Bobby Knight saw Damon Bailey for the 1st time in the 8th grade, he raved that he was a 'creator'.

Unfortunately, Kobe has rarely played w/ excellent 'converters' (other than Shat, who is an anomaly) so he's learned some bad habits. Think about it, the very streaky DFish is probably the best outside shooter that Kobe has ever played extended minutes with, and other than Glen Rice it's a giant dropoff to the next level of Kobe's teammates. (Horry, Fox, Payton, Eddie, Elden, etc. were all AT BEST mediocre catch and shoot converters-don't believe me, look at their %s-and that's with Shat and Kobe getting them cleaner looks than anybody in the league)

It's kind of sad that Cook and Sasha are two of the best shooters to ever play w/ Kobe.
Also,IMO the pick and roll is counterproductive w/ Kobe. It just clogs up his area w/ more people and unless it's with a guy who can shoot well (Cook) it's stupid. Yet Mihm, Kwame, and Bynum continually try to set screens 20+ feet away.
I prefer Kobe just taking his man off of the dribble (which he is incredibly good at) without screens. If the defense rotates to stop him, simply hit the open guy. The key is the ball must eventually find an open converter in a preferred spot. Sasha, Smush, Cook, Mihm, and Walton are all finally becoming reliable converters from certain spots. And once they learn the system they will continually improve.

magic_bryant · Franchise Player Joined: 16 Oct 2002 Posts: 18179

Kobe can play facillitator as long as there is another player that is a true 2nd option. We don't have that. LO is never going to be a consistent scorer, nor is Smush, Mihm, Cook, Sasha, any of em. So, until we get a TRUE 2nd option, Kobe has to be THE scorer. To give us a fighting chance.
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Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass."

magic_bryant · Franchise Player Joined: 16 Oct 2002 Posts: 18179

KA_2 · Star Player Joined: 08 Jan 2005 Posts: 1883

I want him to be just the way he is, with a more concerted effort to pass when necessary.
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postandpivot · Retired Number Joined: 16 Sep 2003 Posts: 36822

it all depends on how far you are shooting in the future. as far as team development. right now if you want a win. kobe shooting(he just needs not to miss). in the future kobe as decoy scorer aka playmaker). but i dont want him taking odoms job. unless odom is going to give me 25 a night with a super high FG%.