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| Which is better for the team? |
| Scorer Kobe? |
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41% |
[ 28 ] |
| Playmaker Kobe? |
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58% |
[ 39 ] |
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| Total Votes : 67 |
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GameCock-MD
Star Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 4498
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 Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| bounty wrote: | | GameCock-MD wrote: | I think that Phil is letting Kobe have his way to start...
Once his team STINKS, he will be a more receptive student... |
The problem is that Kobe has bailed us out and thats something that he embraces. As long as there is a game winner still at stake there are no problems in his mind |
Good point but I don't think that Kobe's satisfied with GW's...he REALLY REALLY wants the MVP...he can't get CLOSE with his team sucking and with the media always talking about his shot attempts...
Kobe and Phil have to sit and have a heart-to-heart...Kobe has to either get over the past or resign himself to a future of mediocrity or without Phil...
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magic_bryant
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Joined: 16 Oct 2002
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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Kobe will never win an MVP. He'll win one more title before he wins an MVP, book it. He has to completely prove the media wrong, and win a title before he gets a LONG overdue, MVP award.
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Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
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TEEGUNN
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Joined: 12 Dec 2002
Posts: 18086
Location: rocky mountain high
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| GameCock-MD wrote: | | bounty wrote: | | GameCock-MD wrote: | I think that Phil is letting Kobe have his way to start...
Once his team STINKS, he will be a more receptive student... |
The problem is that Kobe has bailed us out and thats something that he embraces. As long as there is a game winner still at stake there are no problems in his mind |
Good point but I don't think that Kobe's satisfied with GW's...he REALLY REALLY wants the MVP...he can't get CLOSE with his team sucking and with the media always talking about his shot attempts...
Kobe and Phil have to sit and have a heart-to-heart...Kobe has to either get over the past or resign himself to a future of mediocrity or without Phil... |
I really don't agree. I don't think Kobe is "gunning" for an MVP or scoring title. Dude wants to win. Period. Sometimes to a fault. |
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GameCock-MD
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Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 4498
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| TEEGUNN wrote: | | GameCock-MD wrote: | | bounty wrote: | | GameCock-MD wrote: | I think that Phil is letting Kobe have his way to start...
Once his team STINKS, he will be a more receptive student... |
The problem is that Kobe has bailed us out and thats something that he embraces. As long as there is a game winner still at stake there are no problems in his mind |
Good point but I don't think that Kobe's satisfied with GW's...he REALLY REALLY wants the MVP...he can't get CLOSE with his team sucking and with the media always talking about his shot attempts...
Kobe and Phil have to sit and have a heart-to-heart...Kobe has to either get over the past or resign himself to a future of mediocrity or without Phil... |
I really don't agree. I don't think Kobe is "gunning" for an MVP or scoring title. Dude wants to win. Period. Sometimes to a fault. |
I respect that but when has there EVER been an NBA MVP from a losing team???
Kobe's shooting tells the tale...he's not talking about not having help and he's not talking about the team as a TEAM...he's playing a different game than others around him...
You may say that he's shooting for an MVP...if he thinks that he can garner MVP of the whole LEAGUE by posting great individual stats, I'm more worried about his intellegence level than I was before...
Tell him to check out T-Wac's MVP trophy collection...that will tell you ALOT about individual stats...
Who beat out Shaq for MVP? Last 3 years???
KG - led his team to a great turn around and powerhouse in the West...
TD - no explanation needed...
Nash - took a lottery team to the top of the West in one offseason...
He doesn't have to prove that he's the best player in the league..people already know that...
He does have to prove that he can lead a team to greatness...that remains to be seen...
How can he do that when he's just the hired gun on a team full of blanks????
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2Cleva
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Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 9195
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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I'm all for Phil moving Kobe back to the initiator role. Move LO to the wing on the tri. He'd be closer to the basket and would score more from there, plus he'd still be a matchup problem because opposing threes would have to guard him and he'd still look to pass too.
But even more importantly, it forces Kobe to pass more. He's going to score regardless, whether it be 26-28 from the initiator or 30-32 from the scorer. But the difference is he knows he won't have the total green light. It may bruise his ego a tad but the Lakers would be a better team. Plus, he will have the chance to play off of the center of the tri but still be the main scorer on O. |
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magic_bryant
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Joined: 16 Oct 2002
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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Gamecock, YOU were the one whoo said he was gunning for an MVP. TEEGUN said he just wants to win. So....uhh...huh? 
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Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
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magic_bryant
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Joined: 16 Oct 2002
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| II Cleva wrote: | I'm all for Phil moving Kobe back to the initiator role. Move LO to the wing on the tri. He'd be closer to the basket and would score more from there, plus he'd still be a matchup problem because opposing threes would have to guard him and he'd still look to pass too.
But even more importantly, it forces Kobe to pass more. He's going to score regardless, whether it be 26-28 from the initiator or 30-32 from the scorer. But the difference is he knows he won't have the total green light. It may bruise his ego a tad but the Lakers would be a better team. Plus, he will have the chance to play off of the center of the tri but still be the main scorer on O. |
Nope, never happen. LO isn't a consistent enough player to play wing and be the hub of the offense. For the better of the team, long term, LO MUST learn to be aggressive while also playing the initiator. Once the others learn the triangle, Kobe WILL pass it more. But LO, not Kobe, must change. He either needs to learn to be aggressive or trade him. He's just not a good enough player to be the hub of the offense.
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Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
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LakersSpirit
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Joined: 13 Apr 2001
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Location: West Los Angeles
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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There's no question, whatsoever, in my own mind... Kobe needs to just run the triangle, and all good things will come, to everyone!! Kobe should know, that the ball will come around to him, and he'll get plenty of chances to score. Kobe should be the leader, in teaching all his teammates, how to stick to the triangle, and follow Phil's plans.
As far as being the "initiator", I'm afraid I don't agree... I secretly have cringed, when Kobe handles the ball too much... Right now, the way Kobe is playing, I see him as, purely, a "catch and shoot, or catch and slash guy". Kobe should just play out on the wing, and work himself open.
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Last edited by LakersSpirit on Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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magic_bryant
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Joined: 16 Oct 2002
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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Kobe kicks it out after the first initial post-entry pass. The problem is that the other guys don't make the swing pass to move the ball to the other side of the court, they juts go ahead and continue dumping it into Kobe.
After they make the first initial post-entry, and Kobe kicks it back out, whoever catches it, needs to swing the ball and one more swing pass, then wait for someone else to flash the post, it would force the defense to scramble 3 times.
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Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
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LakersSpirit
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Joined: 13 Apr 2001
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| magic_bryant wrote: | Kobe kicks it out after the first initial post-entry pass. The problem is that the other guys don't make the swing pass to move the ball to the other side of the court, they juts go ahead and continue dumping it into Kobe.
After they make the first initial post-entry, and Kobe kicks it back out, whoever catches it, needs to swing the ball and one more swing pass, then wait for someone else to flash the post, it would force the defense to scramble 3 times. |
I dig that.. 
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GameCock-MD
Star Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 4498
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| magic_bryant wrote: | | Gamecock, YOU were the one whoo said he was gunning for an MVP. TEEGUN said he just wants to win. So....uhh...huh? |
We don't disagree on that fact...
Where we disagree is Kobe's approach...if he is trying to do it with a losing team and great individual stats, he's going to fall short and end up feeling like the world is out to get him even more...
A hero holds purposes appropriate to man and is, therefore, a thinker.
Andrew Bernstein
A hero has faced it all: he need not be undefeated, but he must be undaunted.
Andrew Bernstein
And my favorite is from Jet Li in Hero..
A warrior's ultimate act is to lay down his sword....
If you can follow this, you understand that Kobe's ultimate act of vindication will come when his vision is no longer clouded by his competetive drive...he will become larger than life when he can both see the war and conflict clearly at all times and to conquer his own demons, then and only then will he reach the peak - reach his potential - live up to his OWN expectations of himself...
Kobe's greatest obstacle is not on the court...it's within himself...
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magic_bryant
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Joined: 16 Oct 2002
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, ok, I thought you were becoming delusional.  You seemed to be arguing with yourself and putting TEEGUNN's name in your "alter ego's" place.
I agree with ya Gamecock. Kobe is his own biggest obstacle. But the whole "me against the world" is the reason he's a 3-time champion. He took everything ever said about him and became the champion we'll always remember him as. So, I'm not sure whether he's doing anything wrong. Maybe giving them more ammunition for the moment. Ammunition that he'll feed off later.
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Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
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GameCock-MD
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Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 4498
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| magic_bryant wrote: | Oh, ok, I thought you were becoming delusional. You seemed to be arguing with yourself and putting TEEGUNN's name in your "alter ego's" place.
I agree with ya Gamecock. Kobe is his own biggest obstacle. But the whole "me against the world" is the reason he's a 3-time champion. He took everything ever said about him and became the champion we'll always remember him as. So, I'm not sure whether he's doing anything wrong. Maybe giving them more ammunition for the moment. Ammunition that he'll feed off later. |
Funny...I seem to remember a guy named Shaq and a coach named Phillip and a little thing called the triangle offense that had something to do with his 3 rings...
Kobe's work ethic is not the problem...
Kobe has to connect with his teammates if he wants to be mentioned in the same BREATH as MJ ever again...if not, there will always be this * beside his Championships which denote the "Shaq" factor...and how ANBODY can look good playing beside Shaq...
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Dude
Starting Rotation
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 822
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Both. |
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Heartburn
Star Player
Joined: 04 Oct 2001
Posts: 6350
Location: The Titanic that is the USA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| LakersRGolden wrote: | Option 4. All around Kobe like in the T-Wolves game.
Penetrate and dish, take any uncontested shot within 15 feet. |
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GameCock-MD
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Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 4498
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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Anybody want to change their vote?
The competetion wasn't much but you can't deny the execution...
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bounty
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Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 3946
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| GameCock-MD wrote: | Anybody want to change their vote?
The competetion wasn't much but you can't deny the execution... |
How about the Kobe whos teamates are aggressive and play like they have a say. thats the Kobe I want
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GameCock-MD
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| bounty wrote: | | GameCock-MD wrote: | Anybody want to change their vote?
The competetion wasn't much but you can't deny the execution... |
How about the Kobe whos teamates are aggressive and play like they have a say. thats the Kobe I want |
It's easy to be aggressive when the d is so focused on Kobe...
The more he recognizes that, the easier ie will be for him to score and the harder it will be for the D to defend the WHOLE TEAM...
Kobe as the decoy...the team as cleanup...LAL with the win...
I'd also like to see that Kobe and LO P&R more often...that should be their bread and butter...
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KB8SD
Star Player
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 1385
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| The title on the thread should be changed to "Which is better for the team? Kobe On the Wing or Kobe The Initiator ? |
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Drifts
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Posts: 28374
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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Kobe's mainly a scorer....his playmaking is brought about by his ability to scorer..unlike Steve Nash, whose scoring is brought about by his playmaking ability.
Kobe needs to be a scorer (a smart one), and when the defense collapses on him he can be a playmaker...but when there just 1 guy on him, he can score anytime.
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"Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it." |
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cirehawk
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Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 5529
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| magic_bryant wrote: | No, because when if we win the title again, it'll be with Kobe as the number one option. And he can't be the number one option AND be a facillitator too. He'd have to dominate the ball then.
Kobe should play as the scorer. Let the rest play their role. THEY'RE the ones who have to learn THEIR roles and spots on the floor. Having Kobe play as the initiator, WOULD be hiding ALL of this team's problems. Kobe shouldn't have to play initiator ever again. He's too good at scoring to waste his talents as we did for the first 8 years of his career. Passing out of the double teams should be all he has to worry about, as far as passing goes. |
I agree MB. That's not to say that in his role as scorer Kobe should not get others involved. As the team grows, Kobe will get them involved even as he scores. To ask him to keep switching back and forth will hurt him as well as the team. I said a while back that I have never seen a player be asked to do so many different things, and then get hammered if he has some bad games. Did Kobe have a rough few games? Yes. But I'll roll with Kobe any day of the week. In 10 years, he has come through for us a hell of a lot more times than he's disappointed.
I say we let him grow with his new team and stop panicking so much. Plus, I think I'll trust that the hall-of-fame coaching staff we have knows a bit about basketball and the best way to use talent. |
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ElginBaylor
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Joined: 05 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think that it's an either/or question. Kobe needs to adjust according to the game flow. Some games, if he's feeling it and no one else is, then he needs to be the scorer. If the offense is running well and his teammates are dropping shots then he can be more of an initiator.
I also totally disagree with anyone who thinks Kobe is more concerned with putting up numbers and trying to win the MVP than he is with winning. Given the choice, I think Kobe would take the W any day of the week. Anyone who thinks otherwise is letting themselves be conned by media hype.
The thing that makes Kobe special is that he does have the ability to do either. But he needs a coach like Phil to continuously remind him of this fact. He has developed some bad habits over the years and I think this is the year that he needs to kick 'em.
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freshprince
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| i like kobe the playmaker..gives everyone on the floor confidence to take shots and than it makes kobe that much more dangerous. in this role he attacks the basket instead of settling for fadaway jumpshots which is fine if he is hot but he is a lot more valuable attacking the hoop! just my opinion though! |
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cirehawk
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| GameCock-MD wrote: | | magic_bryant wrote: | Oh, ok, I thought you were becoming delusional. You seemed to be arguing with yourself and putting TEEGUNN's name in your "alter ego's" place.
I agree with ya Gamecock. Kobe is his own biggest obstacle. But the whole "me against the world" is the reason he's a 3-time champion. He took everything ever said about him and became the champion we'll always remember him as. So, I'm not sure whether he's doing anything wrong. Maybe giving them more ammunition for the moment. Ammunition that he'll feed off later. |
Funny...I seem to remember a guy named Shaq and a coach named Phillip and a little thing called the triangle offense that had something to do with his 3 rings...
Kobe's work ethic is not the problem...
Kobe has to connect with his teammates if he wants to be mentioned in the same BREATH as MJ ever again...if not, there will always be this * beside his Championships which denote the "Shaq" factor...and how ANBODY can look good playing beside Shaq... |
And this is a big problem when comparing Kobe to MJ. We have the benefit of having already seen MJ's complete body of work, while we are watching Kobe's body of work unfold before us. And speaking of MJ, I seem to remember a guy named Scottie and a coach named Phillip and a little thing called the triangle offense that had something to do with his 6 rings...
And if we want to talk about *'s, I remember Shaq had a pretty talented team around him in Orlando and won nothing. He also had a pretty talented team around him in Miami last year and won nothing. He also had all-star perimeter players in Penny and D-Wade. If he can't stay healthy and in shape, there will always be this * beside his Championships which denote the "Kobe" factor...and how HE never won a championship without Kobe...
That's not to say though that Kobe doesn't have a lot of room for improvement. But here's an idea. Why don't we wait until he finishes his body of work and then compare. But to this point, I'm pretty impressed with his resume. |
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GameCock-MD
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Joined: 14 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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After tonight's first quarter, I'll ask again if anyone wants to change their vote...
Kobe as the intiator/facilitator/decoy is the best thing for this young team and it is undenyable...
As they grow, Kobe can go back to whatever role he so desires to have...
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